Discussion of Angel & Faith 9.01 "Live Through This"- Released 8/31/11 (Dark Horse)

Spoilers below!

Read it (and picked up all 3 covers! Awesome 😀), and I can say I really enjoyed the first issue. The premise is fantastic, Angel and Faith using Giles's Watcher Diaries to help others. I thought Angel and Faith had a great chemistry in the book, which Christos Gage transferred beautifully from the TV show. The Whistler scene was a little weird...I liked them bringing the character back, but I never thought he was a bad guy, but the "balance" thing makes sense

But let's talk about Rebekah Isaac's art. Frickin amazing. Sorry Georges Jeanty, your art is still good, but Rebekah got every face just right, every expression is great and it's just beautiful to watch. I'm glad they landed such an amazing artist.

Can't wait for issue #2! I hope we get thrown some of the Fang Gang soon
 
I liked it. I do think they need to stop being so wishy washy with the Twangel thing... Angel needs to man up and take responsibility for what happened... EVERYTHING that happened. The time for excuses including "you haven't seen what I have" and "I was under Twilight's influence" is over. Also, it's a magicless world... so you can't bring someone back. Angel can't get off the hook that way. And if they find some loophole, I, as a fan, will feel lied to and jipped.

Now... apart from that I really liked it. I think I'm going to fall in love with Faith in this series. I never thought i'd say that, ever.
 
"Angel is Twilight."

"Angel is somehow in league with Twilight?"

"No, Angel IS Twilight. Angel and Twilight are the same person."

"Now, wait, are we suspecting that Angel and Twilight are in some way...connected?"

"Angel is Twilight. Twilight is Angel. They are one and the same. One vampire, two names. Well...three, counting Angelus."

"Let's see if I have this straight. Angel has some sort of history with this Twilight character. Could we somehow exploit that?"

"DAMMIT, ANGEL AND TWIL...Oh, forget it. Just forget that I ever brought the subject up."

"Good, because we really should be concentrating on some way to get in touch with Giles. He's almost certainly off somewhere researching ways to defeat Twilight. Maybe he and Wes are using the research facilities at Wolfram & Hart to track down some clues."

"No, Giles and Wes are both... Never mind. I'm going away now. If anyone needs me, I'll be somewhere...away."

Sound familiar?
 
A
Abby27
Best post ever! haha!
I don't understand why some of you folks are saying that Angel is being wishy-washy about his responsibility. Sounded to me like he took full responsibility. He even took responsibility for the times he was completely under Twilight's control: "Times I could've turned back...asked more questions...really thought about what I was doing. But I didn't. And now I have more death on my conscience than Angelus ever did". When he mentioned Hell-A it sounded more like explanation than excuse. I mean, we've all been asking these questions about how he got to this point, now we don't want to hear it?
 
I don't understand why some of you folks are saying that Angel is being wishy-washy about his responsibility. Sounded to me like he took full responsibility. He even took responsibility for the times he was completely under Twilight's control: "Times I could've turned back...asked more questions...really thought about what I was doing. But I didn't. And now I have more death on my conscience than Angelus ever did". When he mentioned Hell-A it sounded more like explanation than excuse. I mean, we've all been asking these questions about how he got to this point, now we don't want to hear it?

Because there was no need whatsoever to introduce the idea that Angel doesn't remember parts of his Twilight stint and that he wasn't fully in control. Yes, thankfully he didn't jump to that excuse even when Faith suggested it but all this has the implication of manipulating us into liking Angel for being so noble that he takes more blame than he could have, sort of like how he tries to redeem himself for his deeds when soulless.
 
white avenger
white avenger
Just give him time. "The devil made me do it" is Angel's favorite excuse for every foil up he has ever made,
I don't understand why some of you folks are saying that Angel is being wishy-washy about his responsibility. Sounded to me like he took full responsibility. He even took responsibility for the times he was completely under Twilight's control: "Times I could've turned back...asked more questions...really thought about what I was doing. But I didn't. And now I have more death on my conscience than Angelus ever did". When he mentioned Hell-A it sounded more like explanation than excuse. I mean, we've all been asking these questions about how he got to this point, now we don't want to hear it?

When I first read the issue the conversation with Faith did seem like the writers were being wishy washy, with the "It's his fault! No it's not!" kinda thing. But reading it again it is very clear that Angel takes COMPLETE responsibility for his actions (or lack of actions) and it is actually Faith suggesting that it wasn't all his fault.

As for the Hell-A bit, well that is fact. That is exactly what he was told. It isn't an excuse. Angel doesn't view it as an excuse because he is still insisting that he could have done more, questioned more. Many people share that view, while other's feel that Angel was played. Personally? I think it is all true. I think he was played like a bloody fiddle, and that TPB showed him a situation that they new Angel would not be able to walk away from. But I also think he knew better and should have questioned the mission a Hell of a lot more.

---------- Post added at 06:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 PM ----------

sort of like how he tries to redeem himself for his deeds when soulless.

Forgetting the point that he owns the guilt of Twilight completely because he was at fault, isn't Angel taking responsibility completely in character? I get the impression that you feel like the writers are manipulating the fans with this somehow, but really, I can't think of a more Angel thing to do. Or have I read you comment incorrectly?
 
Forgetting the point that he owns the guilt of Twilight completely because he was at fault, isn't Angel taking responsibility completely in character? I get the impression that you feel like the writers are manipulating the fans with this somehow, but really, I can't think of a more Angel thing to do.

It's in character, all right. I just dislike the implication that he willingly accepts more blame that he could have, next thing you know they might well spin the story as him being unfairly persecuted because it's not as if they will allow his many new enemies to dust him and I doubt they will not allow him to even meet any of them, so... Don't get me wrong, Angel accepting the blame is more than I expected of him but I am very wary of how things will develop given the writers' track record. They obviously expect me to sympathise with Angel but I am long past that.
 
It's in character, all right. I just dislike the implication that he willingly accepts more blame that he could have,

Personally, I would have been stunned if he hadn't accepted total blame. I don't think we have ever seen him do anything but that.


They obviously expect me to sympathise with Angel but I am long past that.

Honestly? I don't think there is anything Angel could do that would satisfy you right now. Like you said in the other thread; you're done with him. When you get to that stage with a character, I don't think there is any coming back.

I'd feel similarly about Spike and Willow.
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
This post deserves a thousand reps.
Because there was no need whatsoever to introduce the idea that Angel doesn't remember parts of his Twilight stint and that he wasn't fully in control. Yes, thankfully he didn't jump to that excuse even when Faith suggested it but all this has the implication of manipulating us into liking Angel for being so noble that he takes more blame than he could have, sort of like how he tries to redeem himself for his deeds when soulless.
But, this is not new news. We clearly see in s8 #40 (or was it #39) that immediately after killing Giles, he had no idea what had happened. Twilight clearly possessed him near the end. He's still taking responsibility for it.

They obviously expect me to sympathise with Angel but I am long past that.
And this is the crux of the issue. There are people who simply dislike him, have possibly always disliked this character, and even more so now. The only solution is staking. It appears that some people will not be happy with any scenario the writers throw out at us. So I ask: why are you reading this comic? It's completely clear that Angel is NOT going anywhere, he's NOT going to be staked. They've named the title after he & Faith for chrissakes.

---------- Post added at 01:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 PM ----------

I've said all along that Whistler is a balance demon, which is not the same as being a good demon, and he will serve evil just as enthusiastically as he will serve good. I'm glad he's a villain now, since we can hopefully now see the little twerp get splattered.

LOL! I'm not sure why people are so surprised at Whistler. I never saw him completely on the side of good in Becoming. Of course we didn't really understand him then, much less the concept of the PTB that developed on AtS. But we also just plain didn't see much of him at all, no backstory whatsoever. If they had used Whistler on AtS instead of Doyle that would have been different. As it was we got a completely different character in Doyle. And it's not as if Whistler did anything in Becoming, besides talk. Reminds me a lot of Giles, Angel, and Doyle all in the beginning of their stints on the shows.

And it really makes sense from what we know of the PTB (WRT their emphasis on balance), and certainly from how Whistler was portrayed in the Riley one-shot.
 
But, this is not new news. We clearly see in s8 #40 (or was it #39) that immediately after killing Giles, he had no idea what had happened. Twilight clearly possessed him near the end. He's still taking responsibility for it.

That's different, now Angel claims he was (sort of) possessed way before #39.

Honestly? I don't think there is anything Angel could do that would satisfy you right now.

Sure there is - he could go visit the beach on a nice sunny day.

So I ask: why are you reading this comic?

I am very bored. 🙂 Plus, the comics have the "so bad, it's good" effect on me, albeit often mixed with plenty of "so bad it's horrible".

LOL! I'm not sure why people are so surprised at Whistler.

Because his babbling about "balance" makes no sense whatsoever. It's hard for me to see him as anything but a very clumsy plot device.
 
Where are you seeing that?

He doesn't say it was way before, but he does say that towards the end that Twilight would take over more and more. We weren't given anything by which we could estimate when Nash and Pearl killed Nadira's squad.
 
My 2 cents:

Selective recap:

Flashback: Somewhere between 1998 and 2010 Giles binded a demon inside a possessed girl, paying his price for the ritual: his happiest day was withdrawn from his memory and transferred to the bound demon.

The present: Angel has read Giles' diary and found out that his spell weaken in time and has to be reinforced. Together with Faith he exorcises the demon and kills him. As a result, Giles' forgotten day, spent in the company of Jenny Calendar, is transferred into Angel's mind, causing more repentance and "opening his eyes", according to him.

Faith meets a slayer, Nadira, who recounts how Twilight's minions, half-demons Nash and Pearl killed girls in her slayer squad while Twilight was looking. Nadira wants to kill Nash, Pearl and Angel.

Whistler recruits Nash and Pearl to bring Kitty Twilight back: "You were trying to make things better. Help us evolve. That still needs to happen. More than ever."
According to Whistler, "Earth's cut off from the mystic dimensions. The only magical crap that still works is stuff that's self-powered. I can't contact my bosses at Powers That Be L.L.C., and my precognition's been all outta whack. Like trying to watch scrambled porn. [...] The world we got now's like a chicken with its head cut off. Running around not realizing it's dead." They agree that it's all Angel's fault, and he must pay for it.

Meanwhile, Angel admits to Faith that Nash and Pearl were working for him, although he doesn't remember watching them killing slayers without stopping them. Faith tries to make him feel better, saying that he was possessed by Twilight, but Angel refuses to accept her excuses and blames himself. Then he says that he's going to bring Giles back to life. To be continued...

Overall impressions:

It feels like a pilot of a new show. Joss and Christos Gage managed to develop the theme, the character arcs, the big bads on only 22 pages. Structurally the issue echoes back to "City Of" and season 1 of AtS: in it, theme and villains (W&H) were introduced in the pilot and there was no an eleventh hour surprises.

Christos Gage writing is very good - clever, sharp, powerful. I can recognize this Angel and this Faith. Giles diary in the prologue is a great way to highlight his innate duality - that of a caring surrogate father for Buffy and a ruthless warrior in the demon world.

Giles' thought in flashback "I must place the greater good above all. Regardless of how difficult that may be" - echoes poignantly in Angel's Twilight arc and highlights the similarities between Giles and Angel. The whole scene reads as setting up Angel's redemption by assuming Giles' role upon himself. Angel gets Giles' role, some Giles memories... I wonder if, by the end of the season Angel will have the epiphany that he could honor Giles by turning into him, in a way? "Dollhouse" demonstrated that Joss is fascinated with the notion of personality and identity, and A&F could become another step in that direction.

Rebekah Isaaks' art is sharp and crisp. Characters are easily recognizable. She excels both at facial expressions and characers' movements. The coloring is also a big win: Giles' flashback is tempered in almost-sepia color scheme; the scene of Faith and Nadira in the night club is very inventive - it pulses with the floodlights that bathe them in different colors that reflect the things they say. Faith wearing white top and black nail polish looks symbolic, while Nadira's stylish outfit almost steals all the scenes with her.

Faith: "Your whole Twilight phase makes about as much sense as a David Lynch movie". Thank you, Faith. It had to be said.

Spoilery thoughts:

I think there is a strong possibility that Whistler may end up as the real Big Bad here. I can see the scenario in which Whistler's goal all along was (and still is) to bring Twilight. He was shepherding Angel since Buffy has been called. Buffy was the first slayer, not brainwashed by The Council - hence, more disposed to fall in love with a vampire. So Whistler manipulated them both.

The demon they kill calls Faith "cow". Was the demon from Pylea? (Faith's reaction: "Now, Gene Simmons' tongue just called me fat. Things are about to get nasty" - is priceless.)

Giles memory are transferred to Angel's mind: looks like Joss applies his "Dollhouse" ideas to A&F. If writers need to equip Angel with some facts from Giles' past, it's a very convenient way: he may acquire them the way Xander has acquired secret military codes after spending several hours as a soldier in "Halloween". That is, if we suspense our disbelief.

So, this is only the first issue, and we already know the Big Bads and their plans as well as Angel's plans. Although it could be misleading. In any case, I'm sure there will be twists and surprises.

I wonder how Angel plans to bring Giles back, especially in the magicless world. The first thought that came to my mind was time-travel and bringing back Ripper. "Self-powered" magic still works; Illyria is "self-powered", isn't she? And if she's not - remember Dr.Who's phone box right under the windows of Giles' apartment?

Interestingly, the last panel features a pic of child!Giles - it may be a clue. According to Rebekah Isaaks, it was specified in the script, but she can't divulge details.

In "After the Fall" Angel has successfully pulled off the reload of the verse and managed to save the day. He did it by killing himself in the previous timeline. Time-travel is also a way to reload the timeline. Angel may think he can pull off something like that again.

OTOH, one of the future cover features Mohra demon from IWRY - and "its blood has regenerative properties" as it was stated. In any case, I can't see Angel's plan working without very, very bad consequences. Consequence-less reload could happen in Lynch's story, but Joss never lets characters off the hook.
 
wickedtiger86
wickedtiger86
Great post!
He doesn't say it was way before, but he does say that towards the end that Twilight would take over more and more. We weren't given anything by which we could estimate when Nash and Pearl killed Nadira's squad.

Whenever it was, it was before we saw Twilight possessing Angel in S8 (and it must have been before the space-frak too), so this is a new twist in the story. It annoys me quite a bit how the writers can't seem to make up their mind about how much in control Angel (and Buffy after he removed the mask) was in this whole mess. They were "in control" but they were also "influenced". You can't have it both ways, people!
 
Whenever it was, it was before we saw Twilight possessing Angel in S8 (and it must have been before the space-frak too), so this is a new twist in the story. It annoys me quite a bit how the writers can't seem to make up their mind about how much in control Angel (and Buffy after he removed the mask) was in this whole mess. They were "in control" but they were also "influenced". You can't have it both ways, people!

I'd like to know the extent of the control too, just to put all the debates about it to rest, so we can all move on from it. They keep giving suggestions that the control wasn't absolute (Angel saying he could have questioned/acted more, Allie saying it is like being drunk) but they still haven't come out and given a straight answer. I don't think we will ever get one because I'm not sure if they thought about it in that context. As is the case with so much of that Twilight arc.
 
I think it is pretty clear that Angel isn't the one being "wishy-washy" here. Its the writers that don't seem to know whether the want Angel to be responsible for Twilight or not.

I'm really liking all of the good reviews in this thread. I've been hesitant to pick up this title for fear that the destruction of Angel's character in season 8 would continue here. Now though, these good reviews have convinced me to buy it.

Edit: I really love the art in this. Its amazing!
 
I just read it and really loved it.

Everyone was completely in character. I had no problem believing that these people were Giles, Angel, and Faith. It sounds like the writer really knows the characters he's writing for. I even hear Anthony, David, and Eliza voicing the characters in my head,

The scenes with Angel & Faith were especially well-done. She trusts him, but still pulled out her stake when Angel "bluffed" the demon just in case. I look forward to seeing how this friendship plays out over the course of this title.

But the thing that impressed me most about the issue was the use of Giles. He was perfect. His thoughts, actions, speech... it was just so Giles. If they continue to use him like this, is might get old after a while, but for now it is fresh, new, and a helluva lotta fun.

I'm already eagerly awaiting the next issue.
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
I loved that she pulled out her stake! It's a very AtS/AI thing to do. :)
B
BffyAngelBoi
Right there with you, and this actually has me now looking forward Buffy #1 even more now. *fingers crossed*
Angel and Faith Issue 1:

Giles: So, Giles has been saving lives and helping others in London. I'm assuming this incident is between S7 and S8. I really love and understand Giles' reasons for not having children and I'm sure they're the same reasons as most of the characters'. But since most of them are either young or undead, they've never really considered having children, but Giles? I find it sad, as a mother, having a child is one of the most beautiful things in life, and I'm sad Giles had died not experiencing that.

Giles does manage well on his own, though I notice that he relies mostly on magic. I love the picture of young Rupert on the wall with his mother and I'm assuming aunt – both women don't look old enough to be grandmothers.


Faith: She has a lot of faith in Angel and goes all Buffy by separating his identity as Angel and his identity as Twilight. It is easier to believe that Angel was possessed all that time. She obviously knows that's not true, but perhaps clings to that lie in order to be able to help Angel through this. He's got no one by his side but her (Where's Connor? Where's Gunn?) and because he was the only one who believed in her before, she'll be the only one believing in him now.

That's going to be hard though, because her new friend wants him dust, and she'll probably be an outcast if the other slayers knew she's hiding Twilight in her apartment. This reminds me of Buffy hiding Angel's return in S3, and if things are going to go like S3, Faith will face a much angrier reaction than Buffy did.


Angel: He's screwed. Big time. I'm not sure how he's going to redeem himself or get back everybody's trust, especially Buffy's. I don't even think it's about redemption anymore. Angel takes full responsibility for his actions, all of them, even the ones in which he was completely out of control, because he knows he wouldn't have been there had he not agreed to be Twilight. So in the end, it is all his fault. In control or not. This isn't a case of being possessed against his will (Xander in the Pack and Spike's trigger in S7) he was the one who chose to be Twilight. The only one who keeps defending Angel and whitewashing what he had done is Faith.

I'm not sure what his motivation for bringing Giles back though. Is it guilt? What is it? It is stupid, and Angel knows that, but I'm not sure he's coherent enough to realize that he's doing something stupid. Faith, on the other hand, is. She should stop him.
 
Back
Top Bottom