Do Buffy's uh... personal choices... bother anyone else?

[willow23]

Using someone who's in love with you and while you aren't is DEFINITELY NOT acceptable.

Yeah. I agree. I think both of us have been saying this all along and I guess some people just don't agree. I really take issue with Buffy using Satsu like this. Forget the put of character or in character thing, of which it is out, and focus on whether Buffy's actions are even at all justifiable.

The way I see it, it wasn't Buffy's mistake. It was more of Satsu's. Buffy told her that she wasn't in love with her, but Satsu still slept with Buffy. And Satsu KNEW why Buffy went along with it.

No. Buffy was the one with all of the emotional capitol and though I agree that it was stupid for Satsu to sleep with her, the blame lies with Buffy who used someone who loved her.

Just because someone hits a point in their life where they have probably found who they really are, DOESN'T mean that they're going to be perfect from now on. Yes, Buffy in "Chosen" was a matured and smarter Buffy, but that doesn't mean that she's DONE maturing. All through our lives we make mistakes, even the same ones twice, but we learn from them. And still we continue to make mistakes and bad choices.

I agree. I think Buffy will continue to make mistakes. I do. We all do, but that doesn't mean that we can just write it off as such. This was a big mistake and she is a repeat offender. However, in response to that I feel the need to point out that I don't understand WHY Buffy is making this mistake and the way the arch way carried out doesn't allow the reader to gain a sense of empathy when it comes to Buffy and her bad decision.

 

[sosa lola]

Okay I'm done with that part.
So do I think sleeping with Satsu was out of character? Absolutely. But not the one-night stand part. I just NEVER would have thought Buffy would swing that way. I mean think about it... Can you HONESTLY picture this event happening on TV? If Season 8 were televised, can you really picture Sarah Michelle Gellar as Buffy doing this?

Why won't she? She had already kissed a girl in one of her movies and probably at an award show. SMG is a great actress who's not afraid of doing challenging roles. She hated the whole sex thing in S6 and yet she still did it.

Writers don't really listen to actors' complaints when writing, they just write, and actors are to act. Heck, JM was against the rape scene in Seeing Red and yet he still did it, because this story is not his, it's Joss'. Buffy sleeping with a girl doesn't mean that SMG will do it in real life. She's aware enough to know that it's just acting and that she's not Buffy.

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

Why won't she? She had already kissed a girl in one of her movies and probably at an award show. SMG is a great actress who's not afraid of doing challenging roles. She hated the whole sex thing in S6 and yet she still did it.

Writers don't really listen to actors' complaints when writing, they just write, and actors are to act. Heck, JM was against the rape scene in Seeing Red and yet he still did it, because this story is not his, it's Joss'. Buffy sleeping with a girl doesn't mean that SMG will do it in real life. She's aware enough to know that it's just acting and that she's not Buffy.

I think it's really something that would only happen in comic-book form and not in how season 8 would've been if it had been televised. Why? For one thing, Joss spent, what? A couple of years on this comic. I think if they'd done a television version of season eight, that idea probably would not have crossed his mind during that point in time. Also, during the time of the year it was on air? Yeah, that would've been a great way for critics and fans to rally for the season. I hate to say it but their night together was not at all organic to the plot. It was forced, it was awkward, it was disgusting, and moreover, it all seemed like a marketing campaign to get people to read the comics and to stir up so controversy in the news.

 

[sosa lola]

I think it's really something that would only happen in comic-book form and not in how season 8 would've been if it had been televised. Why? For one thing, Joss spent, what? A couple of years on this comic. I think if they'd done a television version of season eight, that idea probably would not have crossed his mind during that point in time. Also, during the time of the year it was on air? Yeah, that would've been a great way for critics and fans to rally for the season. I hate to say it but their night together was not at all organic to the plot. It was forced, it was awkward, it was disgusting, and moreover, it all seemed like a marketing campaign to get people to read the comics and to stir up so controversy in the news.

To be honest, I didn't hate Buffy/Satsu, and I know many who liked it. I agree that Buffy was wrong to sleep with someone who's in love with her while she knows she can't love her back. I just don't think it's out of character and I think if it happened on TV, it would have been explored much better than in the comic book. Simply because we'll have SMG's touches on the matter and the writers will have more screen time to show us extra scenes.

I know there are things that aren't going to make it in a TV S8 (like Giant Dawn) but the season's major theme which is Buffy's misguided morality -my favorite bit about S8- will most probably be included.

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

To be honest, I didn't hate Buffy/Satsu, and I know many who liked it. I agree that Buffy was wrong to sleep with someone who's in love with her while she knows she can't love her back. I just don't think it's out of character and I think if it happened on TV, it would have been explored much better than in the comic book. Simply because we'll have SMG's touches on the matter and the writers will have more screen time to show us extra scenes.

I know there are things that aren't going to make it in a TV S8 (like Giant Dawn) but the season's major theme which is Buffy's misguided morality -my favorite bit about S8- will most probably be included.

Haha, well lucky for you. I have yet to find someone (not on BB) that is Buffy fan and likes that relationship. To me, Satsu was just annoying for the start, and she's really written to fit in with Kennedy's character. more than anyone else, in my opinion. Still going with my out of character explanation on how she's made the same mistake (twice!, and perhaps three) and now she's making it for yet another time. That doesn't show maturation or any kind of character-like qualities that I usually find in my ex-role model.

 

[nerd4hire]

This is slightly OT, but I thought it was interesting, and might fit in.

Did you know there's a kind of Japanese game called Batsu and that Batsu appears to mean "punishment"?

A Batsu game (罰ゲーム, batsu geemu), meaning "punishment game", is a common element in Japanese owarai stage comedy and variety shows.

A batsu game is usually a competition or quiz in which the loser is punished. A typical batsu game is to drink some sort of strong-tasting or foul liquid, such as pure vinegar. Batsu also signifies the symbol "X" in Japanese, which means a wrong answer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batsu_game

And yeah Ellyce there is pro-Batsu talk on other Buffy sites. I've seen it.

 

[Kean]

As promised...

Batsu, The True Meaning - Buffy-Boards

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I have to say that I'm a fan of the Buffy/Satsu storyline and actually a fan of the relationship itself... or at least its potential. The way B handled things may rightly be called irresponsible and cruel to Satsu... but there is an obvious disconnect between Buffy's words and her actions. She is clearly not completely in touch with her own feelings on the matter. (Buffy being confused about a relationship? Imagine that.)

Obviously, and understandably, Joss didn't want to saddle his heroine with a distracting long-term character development like acquiring a girlfriend. I'm grateful that Satsu was allowed to leave the stage gracefully without getting killed, vamped, sent to Hell, seduced by evil, or falling victim to any of the other horrors that seem to strike every single loving relationship in the Whedonverse.

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

Obviously, and understandably, Joss didn't want to saddle his heroine with a distracting long-term character development like acquiring a girlfriend. I'm grateful that Satsu was allowed to leave the stage gracefully without getting killed, vamped, sent to Hell, seduced by evil, or falling victim to any of the other horrors that seem to strike every single loving relationship in the Whedonverse.

Well, Satsu didn't fall into the pit of horror because they weren't a happy couple. Joss isn't really making me have a lot of faith in him with this entire matter, it felt very forced and like a huge marketing plot to raise revenues and money to me.

 

[cranetimothyj]

But wasn't twighlight makeing her doubt herself, her decisions, a leader is not a leader if they doubt themselves, thats why she was so mature in the seventh season, she knew and often verbalised "Girls are going to die!" But now, it's her against the humans, she's had a lot of extra pressure on her to lead, she needs two decoys to make sure she's safe, and Faith (even though we understand why she did it, but Buffy never did) attacked her. And some girl pulls her out of a trance with a kiss, i know i woukd be enthraled by that, it happens, I find it in character and suites the story line. It feels forced because they didn't show the lead up, Drew Goddards idea, and understandable, it would seem so much more fake, 'cause there is no good way to write something like that

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

But wasn't twighlight makeing her doubt herself, her decisions, a leader is not a leader if they doubt themselves, thats why she was so mature in the seventh season, she knew and often verbalised "Girls are going to die!" But now, it's her against the humans, she's had a lot of extra pressure on her to lead, she needs two decoys to make sure she's safe, and Faith (even though we understand why she did it, but Buffy never did) attacked her. And some girl pulls her out of a trance with a kiss, i know i woukd be enthraled by that, it happens, I find it in character and suites the story line. It feels forced because they didn't show the lead up, Drew Goddards idea, and understandable, it would seem so much more fake, 'cause there is no good way to write something like that

I see your point, but to me, it's about her MATURITY and her CHOICES. Besdies, leaders can still be leaders even if they doubt themselves. Granted, they may not make good ones, but they're still leaders. Just because someone has pressure does not mean that they make a bad leader, either.

Are you saying that Barack Obama (not trying to bring up politics, it's just an example) or any of our past presidents didn't face pressure? If that's so, and they faced pressure, that must mean that they're all not leaders, even though they're leading us as a people and helping our nation. The same goes to other countries's presidents/ rulers/leaders. All of them have pressure, that comes with the job, and they know that. This does not mean that they're going to be bad leaders and suddenly go and mack on people and use people.

I do not find it at all in-character. I found it to be laughable and really annoying. *taps fingers on table and thinks* Buffy using someone is NOT at all in character anymore. After the scenarios with Parker, Riley, and especially Spike, Buffy learned her lesson. All that growth in season seven suddenly just disappears because we need to give her a "love interest" that she's going to use again? Kennedy and Satsu are really suited for one another, and I'd be happy to see the two most annoying characters end up together (which I highly doubt is going to happyen).

Otherwise, I think I'd be extremely pleased to see Satsu die. Goodness, she was just the most pathetic and annoying character since Kennedy. (Again, not being homophobic or racist, seeing as I'm half-Asian myself)

And I disagree with you. If Joss HAD made there a better build-up, had made it so that Buffy didn't make the same mistake of sleeping with someone she wasn't yet in love with again (for the fourth time, now, really), I think I would've been more open to it. Granted, I may not have liked it, but it would've been a lot less controversial.

 

[wehappyfew]

I see your point, but to me, it's about her MATURITY and her CHOICES. Besdies, leaders can still be leaders even if they doubt themselves. Granted, they may not make good ones, but they're still leaders. Just because someone has pressure does not mean that they make a bad leader, either.

Are you saying that Barack Obama (not trying to bring up politics, it's just an example) or any of our past presidents didn't face pressure? If that's so, and they faced pressure, that must mean that they're all not leaders, even though they're leading us as a people and helping our nation. The same goes to other countries's presidents/ rulers/leaders. All of them have pressure, that comes with the job, and they know that. This does not mean that they're going to be bad leaders and suddenly go and mack on people and use people.

I do not find it at all in-character. I found it to be laughable and really annoying. *taps fingers on table and thinks* Buffy using someone is NOT at all in character anymore. After the scenarios with Parker, Riley, and especially Spike, Buffy learned her lesson. All that growth in season seven suddenly just disappears because we need to give her a "love interest" that she's going to use again? Kennedy and Satsu are really suited for one another, and I'd be happy to see the two most annoying characters end up together (which I highly doubt is going to happyen).

Otherwise, I think I'd be extremely pleased to see Satsu die. Goodness, she was just the most pathetic and annoying character since Kennedy. (Again, not being homophobic or racist, seeing as I'm half-Asian myself)

And I disagree with you. If Joss HAD made there a better build-up, had made it so that Buffy didn't make the same mistake of sleeping with someone she wasn't yet in love with again (for the fourth time, now, really), I think I would've been more open to it. Granted, I may not have liked it, but it would've been a lot less controversial.

it's kind of like the girl who always goes out with the wrong dude? even though she knows what she's getting into.

buffy knew (and told Satsu) that this wasn't love (so satsu's not a love interest per se) it was just sex.

but even though, she's "learned" doesn't mean she's applying that learning....she may be disregarding it because she feels like she needs to have a connection with someone at this chaotic time in her life and it's going to be with someone who loves her. that might be what turns on buffy most, the fact that satsu truly loves her. just like with spike.

but buffy is still showing that she has learned by telling satsu what's up even if she disregards the actual truth.

so, maybe you're right....(you're not 😉) but maybe you are...and buffy is acting out character. that stuff happens in real life too...so it's not unrealistic. and i think it's quite a nice turn in the entire storyline.

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

buffy knew (and told Satsu) that this wasn't love (so satsu's not a love interest per se) it was just sex.

It's the whole issues of using someone who's in love with her. It's not okay to use someone, and Buffy herself said this before. And it's not "just sex", it's making use of someone who cares about you and knowing what you're doing all the while. Buffy has already reached that point in her life where she was a selfish, uncaring bitca, and she's learned from that. What we see in season 8 is a huge backwards step and how is it at all okay for Buffy to do that, after the people that she's used for sex and the way she was once used?

but even though, she's "learned" doesn't mean she's applying that learning....she may be disregarding it because she feels like she needs to have a connection with someone at this chaotic time in her life and it's going to be with someone who loves her. that might be what turns on buffy most, the fact that satsu truly loves her. just like with spike.

The issue still continues. She's learned from it, and she's matured so much in season seven. To have her suddenly just whammy back to her old immature self is really out of line, out of character, and unappealing. Again, this is all something that happened in season 4 and 5 with Riley and season 6 with Spike. Buffy, knowing that Satsu was in love with her, used her, just like she used Spike. Buffy in season six was a horrid person but it was necessary for us as viewers to see the dark side of our favorite character. We don't need to go there again with her using people for sex and hurting them.

but buffy is still showing that she has learned by telling satsu what's up even if she disregards the actual truth.

so, maybe you're right....(you're not 😉) but maybe you are...and buffy is acting out character. that stuff happens in real life too...so it's not unrealistic. and i think it's quite a nice turn in the entire storyline.

Disregarding the truth is not a sign of maturity at all. In fact, Buffy often always comes face to face with the truth, especially when she became a mature young woman. Now? She's just ... pathetic.

so, maybe you're right....(you're not 😉) but maybe you are...and buffy is acting out character. that stuff happens in real life too...so it's not unrealistic. and i think it's quite a nice turn in the entire storyline.

'Course I'm right! 😉 She is acting out of character. I accept it as canon, since it's Joss, but it's completely, mind-bafflingly, un-Buffy. Yes, this kind of thing may happen in real life, but after the third time? I understand some people may never learn, but Buffy has gotten so far during season seven and now? We're back to square one. I find it to be a horrid turn in the story-line and absolutely appalling.

 

[nerd4hire]

And I like it. I find it challenging, apt to the Season 8 themes, and cleverly possible within Buffy's character evolution. So there you go...different strokes.

 

[sosa lola]

I know so many fans at Live Journal who are big Buffy/Satsu fans, they write fanfics about them and make icons. 🙂

buffy knew (and told Satsu) that this wasn't love (so satsu's not a love interest per se) it was just sex.

but even though, she's "learned" doesn't mean she's applying that learning....she may be disregarding it because she feels like she needs to have a connection with someone at this chaotic time in her life and it's going to be with someone who loves her. that might be what turns on buffy most, the fact that satsu truly loves her. just like with spike.

but buffy is still showing that she has learned by telling satsu what's up even if she disregards the actual truth.

I agree. 🙂

Not to forget that Buffy didn't just jump into bed with Satsu for the sake of it. In #11, the one before the Batsu sex, Buffy was having an interesting conversation with Xander about not connecting with the slayers under her charge.

XANDER: Maybe now we're only cleaning up messes, but we're just getting started. What you've created here is a lot more than just monster fighters. It's"¦ you know, ah"¦

We see a close-up of Buffy in profile, looking sad again.

BUFFY: Connection. Why can't I feel it?

The view reverses, and Xander rubs his chin as he answers.

XANDER: Maybe you don't get to. Maybe the leader, the girl who brings it all together, is the one that has to give that up.

Down below, we see the Slayers, happily training and sparring with each other. Up in the distance, we see the shapes of Buffy and Xander watching them.

BUFFY: Yeah.

In close-up again, Buffy stares ahead with resignation on her face.

BUFFY: Yay me.


See? Buffy feels alone and less connected with those around her. The fact that there's this amazing girl who's in love with her makes her yearn for connection. However, unlike when she used to force herself on Spike regardless of what he wanted, she was honest with Satsu. She told her that she was not gay and that there would not be a relationship out of this. Satsu had the choice to disagree. That shows that Buffy had learned from her abusive experience with Spike. You'll say, why didn't she sleep with someone else? But Buffy doesn't want just sex, she wants to connect. The downside is that the only person she can connect with is Satsu, a girl, and Buffy isn't into girls, but she's so desperate for love and connection she doesn't care about the gender.

 

[cranetimothyj]

Oh Ellyce, you're good, I'd try a counter argument poit, but I'm kinda scared of being shut down lol, all I have to say is, I find it believeable, and I don't think it was used for publicity. You are one powerful opponent 😛

 

[nerd4hire]

Oh Ellyce, you're good, I'd try a counter argument poit, but I'm kinda scared of being shut down lol, all I have to say is, I find it believeable, and I don't think it was used for publicity. You are one powerful opponent 😛

And what makes you think you won't get shut down by admitting your argument may be too weak to post? 😉

I'm kind of kidding, but the thing is I see this every time an argument is faith based. What I mean is the substance of the opposing argument is based on a feeling or belief something is the case, but the support for the argument if there was any left the debate long ago. It's all about this is the way I feel so this is what the truth is, and everybody should feel the same way.

The argument then consists of saying the same thing over and over again, and from time to time somebody will pop in who feels the same way, and start talking about the power of the argument. The argument has no actual power any more. The support for either side has already been presented in the first few pages. At this point some simply share the same beliefs.

This one comes down to you accept the temporary relationship we saw with Buffy and Satsu, and possibly even find something intriguing about it, or you reject it as not being possible within your belief system of what you think Buffy is capable of.

At this point neither side is going to change their minds. You're simply playing a game of who's going to tire of the argument first, or who is the belief most important to.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

One of the things I like most about characterization in the Whedonverse is that it's not linear and predictable...characters don't always behave the way their Wikipedia entries might make you think they would.

Most of us have had friends do things that made us say "She did what?" or "What was he thinking?" Many of us have done things ourselves that made our friends say that about us. Buffy's like that too, except that she happens to be a superhero with the fate of the world on her shoulders.

It's a real tribute to the strength of Joss's creation that his characters seem so much more like friends than like characters. Like a friend, I'll still love Buffy no matter how many mistakes she makes. And I feel actual frustration sometimes that I can't literally jump into the story and help. I don't think any other TV/comics storyteller has ever gotten that reaction from me.

(And I still think Buffy and Satsu would have made a lovely couple.)

 

[Blaze]

you know what, I'm not that suprise of what happened and it's not that much out of character. I mean after all the disfunctunial relations she had, its kind of normal that she is going to want to feel loved again. And seriously, if she can't have Angel or Spike, maybe Satsu isn't that bad of a match.

Anyway I'm not saying that using her was ok, i'm just saying that I sort of understand Buffy after all and I mean you see it more and more in real life when two straight girls have benefits between each other only because the need that feeling (ok, Satsu is not straight but you get my point)

hopes that what I'm saying makes sense

-Blaze-

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I think this whole episode was far more a result of confusion and conflicting emotions than irresponsibility on Buffy's part.

Knowing Joss has stated flat-out that he's not going to make Buffy gay, I am nevertheless struck by how conflicted B seems about her relationship with Satsu. Seems like she said to herself, "Oh no, Satsu is in love with me but I'm totally straight! Gotta take this girl out on a nice relaxing Slaying expedition and let her down easy."

And this is the Totally Effective Way she did so:

• Tells Satsu that her being in love with B is "the sweetest thing ever".
• Tells her that she's hot, and has good taste, and smells nice.
• Tells Satsu that knowing about her love makes her feel "a little bit less lonely."
• Tells her that a relationship would be "fine for me" (but "bad for you")
• And then takes her home for an evening of grab-the-headboard sex.

Way to go, Buffy! That's telling her! :thumb: Glad we cleared that up.

Oh, and then she tells Satsu that was one of the best nights of her life, and then sleeps with her again.

We've seen before how great Buffy is at recognizing the truth in her relationships. This is another of those times. It's not a moral failing... it's a learning disability.