Question Do you think it was the right decision to have Spike fall in love with Buffy?

[StarSlayer]

But 'Spike' was the persona he created for himself, the person he wanted to be in the world, and that's the character we were introduced to, and that's the character I fell in love with. I fell out of love with him in S6 and 7, when they stripped him back to William in a Spike shell, and all that character development he created for himself was lost.

The thing is did he really want to be that person? I think that's the $64,000 question. Angelus told him to change his name to something that sounded more fearful. Spike seemed to get more violent when Angelus started taking things away from him, like with Dru. Was creating this persona just "tough guy talk?"

I get that if someone falls in love with a character that was originally introduced to us, they want that character to stick around. At the same time, at least for me, I like to see growth, which is what I saw as the series progressed. I don't think the character development was lost, but rather expanded upon.

I think that's why I love the scene in "Get It Done" so much, when Spike gets his leather coat back. Spike definitely changed for the better with getting his soul, but he's still Spike. He still has to be Spike. The Spike that's dangerous. It's who he is and it's what makes him the strong fighter that he is. Buffy reminded him of that.

I definitely think there could have been SO many other, better ways to deal with Spike's love for Buffy, instead of turning him back into love's bitch.

But, he is love's bitch, lol! That's who he is! We saw that in s2 and s3 with Drusilla, not just when he fell in love with Buffy. So, it makes complete sense that he would be love's bitch again when he fell in love with Buffy. I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. 🙂

 

[patriot1123]

"No" vote here. I thought it was almost laughable for Spike to fall in love with Buffy and even more so for her to return any part of that feeling. It was not credible and it gave seasons 5 through 7 an "ick" overlay that I could never shake.

 

[Lyri]

Angelus told him to change his name to something that sounded more fearful.

I don't remember that. When was that? The only thing I remember is Spike telling Angelus to call him 'Spike'.

I get that if someone falls in love with a character that was originally introduced to us, they want that character to stick around. At the same time, at least for me, I like to see growth, which is what I saw as the series progressed. I don't think the character development was lost, but rather expanded upon.

Yes, there was growth, I'm not denying that, but at the same time, I don't think his character was 'expanded upon'. To me, the Spike we saw from mid2S5 onwards was more regression than anything. He regressed to that William time, when spent wanting something he could never have. And I just end up feeling sorry for him, how this strong, powerful creature regressed back to a simpering fool.

He redeemed himself a little in S7, after getting his soul back, but I don't think it was enough.

But, he is love's bitch, lol! That's who he is! We saw that in s2 and s3 with Drusilla, not just when he fell in love with Buffy. So, it makes complete sense that he would be love's bitch again when he fell in love with Buffy. I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. 🙂

But when he was with Dru, ALONE with Dru, he came into his own. He was equal, sometimes the dominant, and he flourished with that knowledge. He might have loved Dru with all he was, but at least that time, he had it right, because Dru was his and he knew that.

Cicelly and Buffy were different, he never had them, they were never his, and he watched from afar as they went on about their lives, thinking he was beneath them and not worthy of them. THAT'S the Spike I hate, and the Spike I wish I'd never seen again.

 

[WakingNightmare]

I don't remember that. When was that? The only thing I remember is Spike telling Angelus to call him 'Spike'.

In the episode Destiny, during a flashback scence Angelus says that William dosen't strike fear in hearts (I think that's what he said) and he should change it.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Tell me the truth. Is this a question to be answered by Spuffies/Bangels? Spuffies would obviously be for Spike falling in love with Buffy, because it's part of what Spuffy is, the love they share. And Bangels are against all the thing that's called "Spuffy" and their love.

The deeper answer will of course be that Spike's developement is important, whether you like it or not. Spike IS in the series, you can't ignore that. And while he's still in it, there must be a character developement, so it can't be that he stays evil or a Buffy hater. Also, Spuffies are a big part of the Buffyverse, not just a small part. It's just like Bangel, it's part of the fandom. I suppose the fans number will be less if there wasn't spuffy in the series, because the Buffy/Spike story is such a big part of it, even if you don't like it. It makes sense It's not that Spike "all of a sudden" fell in love with Buffy. It's not weird, because it's Spike. He's a love's bitch, not just any vampire you find in the street, he's a special vampire. If he wasn't he wouldn't have gotten his soul back, wouldn't have died for Buffy. It's not just a regular vampire falling in love with a Slayer. Angel was a special vampire as well, as he fell in love with the Slayer as well. I just don't see why Angel can be falling for Buffy and Spike can't.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

YES.

I agree with Sarah Michelle Gellar who lobbied Spuffy since the very beginning.

I agree with Joss Whedon who immediately saw that Spike is more than just a villain "pretty much when James Marsters auditioned for it."

 

[Kean]

YES.

I agree with Sarah Michelle Gellar who lobbied Spuffy since the very beginning.

I agree with Joss Whedon who immediately saw that Spike is more than just a villain "pretty much when James Marsters auditioned for it."

She lobbied for it? I've never heard that before? Do you have links? 🙂

What I do remember is her saying in a magazine interview that she felt degraded as an actress by Spike and Buffy's relationship in S6.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Simple, in only 4 small words.. HELL TO THE NO!

 

[patriot1123]

I just don't see why Angel can be falling for Buffy and Spike can't.

I'll just be consistent, then, and say that I didn't care for Buffy - Angel either.

But I can see both sides of the issue, for both relationships. I do understand the dramatic tension introduced into the series by both relationships, and I do love me some drama. 🙂

 

[StarSlayer]

She lobbied for it? I've never heard that before? Do you have links? 🙂

So with David Boreanaz's Angel out of the picture, who's next? "Joss doesn't like to tell us - with good reason," says Sarah, who admits she'd be the first to spill. OK, so Sarah won't dish love details, but she did reveal her fantasy guy: Spike! "When I mentioned the possibility of Spike and Buffy," says Sarah, "Joss was like, 'No more vampires!'" (Teen Magazine, 1-00)

What I do remember is her saying in a magazine interview that she felt degraded as an actress by Spike and Buffy's relationship in S6.

The only real negative thing I've read about Buffy and Spike's relationship according to SMG was that she felt the balcony scene in "Dead Things" was out of character. She said that in an interview with EW. Yet, honestly IMO, that was the point of the scene.

---------- Post added at 02:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 PM ----------

But when he was with Dru, ALONE with Dru, he came into his own. He was equal, sometimes the dominant, and he flourished with that knowledge. He might have loved Dru with all he was, but at least that time, he had it right, because Dru was his and he knew that.

Cicelly and Buffy were different, he never had them, they were never his, and he watched from afar as they went on about their lives, thinking he was beneath them and not worthy of them. THAT'S the Spike I hate, and the Spike I wish I'd never seen again.

I wonder though. When Angelus came back, was Dru still really Spike's? It didn't seem so. It's one of the reasons why Spike wanted to team up with Buffy. To get Dru back. And this all relates to what Angelus said in "Destiny." "Nothing is yours. Not even her [Drusilla]."

I guess we have different opinions then on the Spike we saw when it came to Buffy and Cecilly. I sympathized with the character who was "beneath them," and who felt unworthy because they didn't accept him.

 

[Icarium]

Let's see - yes, if you think it's right for producers to sell out to the most vocal fan faction. No, if you believe in artistic integrity and internal story consistency. Seems like an easy answer to me.

And I have always hated the argument that if the actors have "chemistry" they need to be paired up ASAP. It's not porn, people, the story should come first, not the actors' preferences and (often rather exaggerated" chemistry. I am sure Adam Busch and Amber Benson would have had plenty of chemistry as they were a couple in real life at the time (and still are, I believe). Does that mean the writers should have felt obliged to pair up Tara and Warren? What about Wesley and Willow?

 

[Kean]

The only real negative thing I've read about Buffy and Spike's relationship according to SMG was that she felt the balcony scene in "Dead Things" was out of character. She said that in an interview with EW. Yet, honestly IMO, that was the point of the scene.

Found it! She said,

Where I had the problem was when Buffy got together with Spike. It became very S&M and I felt degraded as an actress.

Source: Scans of Elle Magazine (UK) June 2004

 

[StarSlayer]

Found it! She said,

Source: Scans of Elle Magazine (UK) June 2004

Lol, it's interesting how the writer said SMG was referring to a sex scene with a pool table. Where was that scene in the series? Again, I'm assuming she's referring to the balcony scene because the writer then mentions "being taken from behind", which isn't anything new to me. I know she didn't like filming that scene, as much as James hated filming the bathroom scene. At the same time, SMG has also said James made her feel very comfortable when they had to film the sex scenes.

(on love scenes with James) He makes it incredibly comfortable. I've been with this group for six years and so if I feel like I'm silly or I feel uncomfortable they help me out. -- Sarah Michelle Gellar (SFX Magazine, 7-02)

At the end of the day, they are professionals. They know that as actors, boundaries will be pushed. They will face challenges.

 

[Kean]

Lol, it's interesting how the writer said SMG was referring to a sex scene with a pool table. Where was that scene in the series? Again, I'm assuming she's referring to the balcony scene, which isn't anything new to me. I know she didn't like filming that scene, as much as James hated filming the bathroom scene. At the same time, SMG has also said James made her feel very comfortable when they had to film the sex scenes.



At the end of the day, they are professionals. They know that as actors, boundaries will be pushed. They will face challenges.

Yeah, absolutely. They may not like it but they still do it. I mean none of the actors (or creative team) have been coy about saying how dissatisfied they were with the darkness of S6. They have acknowledged it several times. I think the Paleyfest was the last time I heard them talk about it.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Yeah, absolutely. They may not like it but they still do it. I mean none of the actors (or creative team) have been coy about saying how dissatisfied they were with the darkness of S6. They have acknowledged it several times. I think the Paleyfest was the last time I heard them talk about it.

Let me ask you something, out of curiousity, and you being a Bangel. If Buffy and Spike were about all the things that Buffy and Angel were, the romance, no violence, movie dates, etc. would you like Spuffy then? Would you agree with that relationship that is NOT Bangel?

 

[StarSlayer]

Yeah, absolutely. They may not like it but they still do it. I mean none of the actors (or creative team) have been coy about saying how dissatisfied they were with the darkness of S6. They have acknowledged it several times. I think the Paleyfest was the last time I heard them talk about it.

Joss liked it, lol! I don't think they were dissatisfied. I think it was just a different feeling, different tone. Some things may not have been their favorite to film, but they're entitled to feel that way. Plus, despite the darkness at times in s6, we can't forget OMWF. The cast seemed to have a blast with that episode. We also don't know everything that happened behind the scenes. We can only go by dallies and interviews. Yet, even with those, we'll still never know the full extent of things.

Sorry, I'm getting off-topic now, lol!

 

[Lyri]

I wonder though. When Angelus came back, was Dru still really Spike's? It didn't seem so. It's one of the reasons why Spike wanted to team up with Buffy. To get Dru back. And this all relates to what Angelus said in "Destiny." "Nothing is yours. Not even her [Drusilla]."

Angelus was Dru's sire. They have a different relationship than Dru would have had to Spike, so of course she would be drawn to him. The Fanged Four seemed to have a very traditional relationship in as far as vampires go. Angelus seemed fine with 'claiming his right' to Dru, even at the expense of Spike, and she was powerless to resist that claim, because that's what she was taught.

When Angelus wasn't around, she was Spike, completely, until after Sunnydale, when she found the fact that he worked with the Slayer against her sire was too much for her to take. This is the starting point of Spike's downward spiral to me. Even though I did, and do, love him in S4 and even S5, before they actually had a 'relationship'.

I guess we have different opinions then on the Spike we saw when it came to Buffy and Cecilly. I sympathized with the character who was "beneath them," and who felt unworthy because they didn't accept him.

I do feel sorry for Spike because of their reactions to him, of course I do, but I just hate what he did to get Buffy to notice him. Instead of picking himself up by his bootstraps and doing what every cold blooded demon would do and murder her entire family in a bloody shower of evil, he simpered and wandered and pined until he couldn't take it anymore and got his soul back, because that's what he thought would make her want him. The fact that he thought he had to change himself to be with her speaks volumes to me.

Maybe it's the fact that he was around humans for so long that made him feel this way. Maybe if, even chipped, he'd been taken in by demons, he would have gone down the evil route, we'll never know.

Originally posted by Chosen Enemy:

Tell me the truth. Is this a question to be answered by Spuffies/Bangels? Spuffies would obviously be for Spike falling in love with Buffy, because it's part of what Spuffy is, the love they share. And Bangels are against all the thing that's called "Spuffy" and their love.

I'm not a Spuffy or a Bangel. I ship neither of them. I'm not saying that my opinion should be held in higher regard because of that, I'm just saying there are those of us out there with no loyalties to either ship.

 

[Doppelgang]

Yes, of course it was a good thing, otherwise Buffy would have just been repeating ground it had already covered in the first 3 seasons for the sake of loyalty to its older fans, rather than having artistic ingenuity.

The idea of Spike doing something similar to Angelus and going on a killing rampage would have just been a case of same old, same old and the fans would have turned off out of boredom.

It made season 5,6 and 7 unique in the way they developed compared to other shows that just go other the same old predictable ground, like vampire diaries, for instance, I like the show, but all the stereotypical "bad" guys and "good" guys who kill and get killed all the time in it make it just an average show. Buffy would have been one of these average shows also if it hadn't decided to go in a different direction by seeing through the implications of Spike falling in love with Buffy IMO.

 

[Icarium]

Yes, of course it was a good thing, otherwise Buffy would have just been repeating ground it had already covered in the first 3 seasons for the sake of loyalty to its older fans, rather than having artistic ingenuity.

Strawman much? It wasn't exactly a choice between either Spuffy or rehashing older storylines. Well, at least not unless the writers were even more creatively bankrupt than I think...

The idea of Spike doing something similar to Angelus and going on a killing rampage would have just been a case of same old, same old and the fans would have turned off out of boredom.

Yeah, because it's not as if the other Big Bads ever went on killing spree. Oh, wait...

Not to mention that they could have gone for the "innovative" approach of, you know, killing Spike or not bringing him back to Sunnydale at all instead of changing the entire show to make him fit better.

It made season 5,6 and 7 unique in the way they developed compared to other shows that just go other the same old predictable ground, like vampire diaries, for instance, I like the show, but all the stereotypical "bad" guys and "good" guys who kill and get killed all the time in it make it just an average show. Buffy would have been one of these average shows also if it hadn't decided to go in a different direction by seeing through the implications of Spike falling in love with Buffy IMO.

Yes, because the story of a man changed by his love for a woman isn't really a beaten to death cliché. No, sir, it's never been done before, ever! Least of all in this very show years before Spuffy started to pollute our screens..

 

[GrrArghx]

I'm indifferent.

I hate Spuffy, but I really like Spike's journey in getting a soul and becoming a champion. That wouldn't have happened the way it did without him falling in love with Buffy.