Question Do you think it was the right decision to have Spike fall in love with Buffy?

[StarSlayer]

Angelus was Dru's sire. They have a different relationship than Dru would have had to Spike, so of course she would be drawn to him. The Fanged Four seemed to have a very traditional relationship in as far as vampires go. Angelus seemed fine with 'claiming his right' to Dru, even at the expense of Spike, and she was powerless to resist that claim, because that's what she was taught.

I just thought of something based on that. I think it could be argued then that Spike was at times "beneath" Drusilla, which fits with the "beneath you" theme with Cecily and Buffy. Yes, Dru was his sire, but Angelus was her sire. And without Darla in the picture, Dru seemed to be drawn to Angelus over Spike. So, maybe Spike and Dru weren't really equals. Maybe he was beneath her as well because he couldn't compete with Angelus.

I do feel sorry for Spike because of their reactions to him, of course I do, but I just hate what he did to get Buffy to notice him. Instead of picking himself up by his bootstraps and doing what every cold blooded demon would do and murder her entire family in a bloody shower of evil, he simpered and wandered and pined until he couldn't take it anymore and got his soul back, because that's what he thought would make her want him. The fact that he thought he had to change himself to be with her speaks volumes to me.

But, why would he do what every cold blooded demon would do? He never did. That's not Spike. He wasn't a vampire who followed the Annoying One. He wasn't a vampire who wanted the world to end. He did things his own way, as he sang at the end of "Lovers' Walk." 😉 For Spike, when he falls in love, he's love's bitch. He becomes obsessive. It happened not just with Buffy, but with Cecily and Dru. However, "Intervention" was where he learned what real love is.

And I'll never understand why some think it's a bad thing that Spike wanted to change himself in order to be with Buffy, especially if it's for the better, lol. Some people do want to make changes in themselves when they fall in love, if it makes the other person happy. That's what Spike thought. At first, he thought that if he gave up on being evil, Buffy would like him. She would be happy he's no longer evil. But, nope. Not so simple. He later thought that if he got his soul, Buffy would love him and be with him (since she said she couldn't love him or be with him). She would be happy he has a soul. Again, not so simple once he got his soul because of all the guilt he felt.

I just want to mention something, since I have to get it out there. 🙂 There's countless stories (fictional and in real life) where men want to change in order to win the girl. So, why does Spike always seem to get the bad end of the deal, lol? It really confuses me.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

She lobbied for it? I've never heard that before? Do you have links? 🙂

What I do remember is her saying in a magazine interview that she felt degraded as an actress by Spike and Buffy's relationship in S6.

Let's see if I managed to attach a file...

It's from "Entertainment weekly", Oct.,1, 1999

 

[Icarium]

He wasn't a vampire who wanted the world to end.

Of course he was. He was all impatient to see how the Judge was gonig to burn everyone.

And I'll never understand why some think it's a bad thing that Spike wanted to change himself in order to be with Buffy, especially if it's for the better, lol. Some people do want to make changes in themselves when they fall in love, if it makes the other person happy.

"Not us! Not demons!".

 

[StarSlayer]

Of course he was. He was all impatient to see how the Judge was gonig to burn everyone.

It's all tough guy talk. 😉 Yet, burning people is a lot different than burning the entire world and bringing an apocalypse. Spike was violent and evil, so of course he wanted to see other people suffer. He didn't want the world to end though. "Truth is I like this world."

 

[Icarium]

Why do people believe Spike's words when his actions indicate the opposite? If Spike wanted to save the world, why would he leave Buffy to fight Angel alone in Becoming? He sees Angel apparently winning the fight, yet literally shrugs and leaves. I'd bet that if any other character had done that, no one would have believed their claims about wanting to save the world but with Spike it somehow happens. Might as well believe Angel's claim about signalling to Buffy with his eyes...

 

[StarSlayer]

Why do people believe Spike's words when his actions indicate the opposite? If Spike wanted to save the world, why would he leave Buffy to fight Angel alone in Becoming? He sees Angel apparently winning the fight, yet literally shrugs and leaves. I'd bet that if any other character had done that, no one would have believed their claims about wanting to save the world but with Spike it somehow happens. Might as well believe Angel's claim about signalling to Buffy with his eyes...

Good point, but when Spike said he wanted to "save the world," he wasn't talking like a hero. Besides, I said Spike was a vampire who didn't want the world to end. I didn't say he really wanted to save it. 🙂 Spike simply liked things in this world that made him not want the world to end. In "Becoming Part 2," his primary goal was to get Dru back and he had to stop Angelus from destroying the world in order to make that happen. If that meant saving the world in the process, so be it. Plus, he can't be with Dru if there's no world to live in.

 

[Doppelgang]

Strawman much? It wasn't exactly a choice between either Spuffy or rehashing older storylines. Well, at least not unless the writers were even more creatively bankrupt than I think...

Yeah, because it's not as if the other Big Bads ever went on killing spree. Oh, wait...

Not to mention that they could have gone for the "innovative" approach of, you know, killing Spike or not bringing him back to Sunnydale at all instead of changing the entire show to make him fit better.

The Innovative approach was what they did in fact do in season 6 with life as the big bad. They didn't change the whole show for the sake of Spuffy anyway, that is just one aspect of what makes the later seasons of buffy so good. The Xander/Anya story, the Willow/Tara story, the Dawn story all develop on their own lines, what has Willows junkie story got to do with the Spike/Buffy relationship, for instance?

Yes, because the story of a man changed by his love for a woman isn't really a beaten to death cliché. No, sir, it's never been done before, ever! Least of all in this very show years before Spuffy started to pollute our screens..

The beaten to death cliche was the type of relationship Buffy and Angel had, and that was the point I was making, relative to which the Spike/Buffy relationship added something different. Angel loved Buffy like a one-minded irritating puppy on your leg, Spike loved Buffy in a more complex human way.

 

[Icarium]

Plus, he can't be with Dru if there's no world to live in.

Of course he can. The world was still going to be there, only it would be ruled by demons.

Good point, but when Spike said he wanted to "save the world," he wasn't talking like a hero. Besides, I said Spike was a vampire who didn't want the world to end. I didn't say he really wanted to save it. Spike simply liked things in this world that made him not want the world to end. In "Becoming Part 2," his primary goal was to get Dru back and he had to stop Angelus from destroying the world in order to make that happen. If that meant saving the world in the process, so be it.

The way I see it there are two options - Spike didn't give a fig about saving the world or Spike is a bloody moron. Why? Well, if he does care about the world why doesn't he help Buffy? Not only would he protect something he likes, but he also would have the perfect chance to get rid of Angel.

The Innovative approach was what they did in fact do in season 6 with life as the big bad.

Yes, because we never saw real life problems on the show before. Oh, wait...

They didn't change the whole show for the sake of Spuffy anyway

Yes, they did. Spike's survival alone meant that everyone else looked like a fool for not staking him.

The beaten to death cliche was the type of relationship Buffy and Angel had, and that was the point I was making, relative to which the Spike/Buffy relationship added something different. Angel loved Buffy like a one-minded irritating puppy on your leg, Spike loved Buffy in a more complex human way.

Spike can't love in a complex human way...because he isn't human, period. Destroying the mythos of the show for the sake of Spuffy isn't something I would call unique or innovative. Well, at least not unless I use the phrase "uniquely dumb".

Not to mention that if we want to get really strict about innovativeness, Spike's story was pretty much a rehashing of Anya's story.

 

[StarSlayer]

Of course he can. The world was still going to be there, only it would be ruled by demons.

The earth was going to be sucked into hell. He wouldn't have his dog-racing, watch Manchester United, or order up some Happy Meals on legs. The world would be different and not in a way Spike wanted. He liked it the way it was. He enjoyed it, and he enjoyed it more with Dru.

The way I see it there are two options - Spike didn't give a fig about saving the world or Spike is a bloody moron. Why? Well, if he does care about the world why doesn't he help Buffy? Not only would he protect something he likes, but he also would have the perfect chance to get rid of Angel.

He doesn't help Buffy because he could care less if Buffy lived or died at that point. His primary goal was to get Dru back. And once he got Dru, especially away from Angelus, it was time to bolt. It may not have been the smarter thing, but Spike doesn't have the reputation of being a thinker. He follows his blood, which told him to leave.

Spike can't love in a complex human way...because he isn't human, period. Destroying the mythos of the show for the sake of Spuffy isn't something I would call unique or innovative. Well, at least not unless I use the phrase "uniquely dumb".

I can't get into this argument again, lol. Spike can certainly love in a complex human way because there is humanity in him when he's soulless. This idea was explained WAY before Spuffy ever happened or was even a possibility. It was mentioned in s2. You can call it "uniquely dumb" (you're entitled to your opinion), but I don't think it's fair to say it destroys the mythos of the show for the sake of Spuffy because the idea was mentioned before Spuffy happened and even before Spike fell in love with Buffy.

 

[white avenger]

Buffy's relationship with either Angel OR Spike could be seen as a "beaten to death cliche'," but let's not lose sight of the fact that just about every episode in the entire series, from "Welcome To The Hellmouth," to "Chosen" had, or at least referred to, some sort of cliche', whether of the beaten to death variety, or the still alive and strong kind. Entertainment abounds with cliches. There are only so many original plot devises, and they were all well used long before Shakespeare used them. There's nothing wrong with cliches just as long as they work within the story you're trying to tell.

 

[Icarium]

The earth was going to be sucked into hell. He wouldn't have his dog-racing, watch Manchester United, or order up some Happy Meals on legs. The world would be different and not in a way Spike wanted. He liked it the way it was. He enjoyed it, and he enjoyed it more with Dru.

What does this have to do with my argument? All I am saying that Spike could have had Dru even if the world went to hell. Whether he would enjoy life more in such a world or not wasn't a part of my point. His behaviour clearly indicates he doesn't really care about the world, so his words mean nothing. Not to mention he promises Buffy to stay away of Sunnydale, only to return a few months later. Spike isn't exactly above lying to gain an advantage, to put it quite mildly.

He doesn't help Buffy because he could care less if Buffy lived or died at that point. His primary goal was to get Dru back. And once he got Dru, especially away from Angelus, it was time to bolt. It may not have been the smarter thing, but Spike doesn't have the reputation of being a thinker. He follows his blood, which told him to leave.

In other words Spike didn't give a damn about saving the world. Why are we arguing again? 🙂

 

[StarSlayer]

What does this have to do with my argument? All I am saying that Spike could have had Dru even if the world went to hell. Whether he would enjoy life more in such a world or not wasn't a part of my point. His behaviour clearly indicates he doesn't really care about the world, so his words mean nothing. Not to mention he promises Buffy to stay away of Sunnydale, only to return a few months later. Spike isn't exactly above lying to gain an advantage, to put it quite mildly.

You said the world was still going to be there, but ruled by demons. I was pointing out that while that may be true, it would make the world different, which is something Spike didn't want. He wanted the world to remain the same because he liked it as it was, which included the little details I mentioned.

In other words Spike didn't give a damn about saving the world. Why are we arguing again? 🙂

I'm not saying Spike wanted to "save" the world, as I mentioned earlier. 🙂 I think you think I am. I'm saying he didn't want it to change. He didn't want it to end. He wanted things back to the way they were before Angelus came back. He wanted to be with Dru again. If that meant "saving" the world in the process, then that was the route he had to go. Like I said, he only really cared about getting Dru back.

 

[Marisa]

I think it was right because to me it was natural. Plus if that didn't happen who would Buffy have been with Riley still? That is okay I like him but not that much.
Plus I enjoyed the storyline some of the other relationships bored me I love them but they didn't make me want to see what was going to happen next all the time.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

@Kean - to be fair to SMG, she definitely didn't expect that Joss will make Spuffy so opposite of Bangel. I think her further words about Bangel scenes making her cry are an indirect indication that she expected a funny, fluffy romance, "Smth.Blue" - style.

@Icarium - I think that Spike leaving Buffy to fight Angel alone in Becoming 2 was strictly a genre convention. A hero always fights his/her nemesis alone, mano-a-mano.

Spike's participation would obviously turned a tragedy into a comedy. That's exactly what writets did in TGIQ.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

He did things his own way, as he sang ...

the same song that Sid Vicious sang trying to show he was a unique snowflake as well when in fact he was nothing without Lydon.

 

[Doppelgang]

Yes, because we never saw real life problems on the show before. Oh, wait...

In season 6 they were being destroyed by their own internal problems, in earlier seasons the problems were either in or projected onto other people who became the big bad that they needed to destroy. E.g. the mayor in season 3, Adam in season 4, Glory in season 5, Angelus season 2, Master Season 1. They didn't take the trio as seriously in season 6 which is why they had no choice but to see themselves as being the source of their problems. This was a new idea in Buffy, different from the standard, project your problems onto some bad guy and then destroy them, and it was what made for such interesting character development and storylines for Buffy, Willow and Spike all trying to overcome their own personal demons.

We saw this temporarily with Faith before, but she soon became a caricature style bad guy, and similalry with Angel there was a chance for this type of story to develop but he switched to the caricature bad guy Angelus instead.

Yes, they did. Spike's survival alone meant that everyone else looked like a fool for not staking him.

I've dealt with this argument before, in regards to him doing things for them intelligently, playing with their compassion to make it difficult for them to bring themselves to stake him, and they also did try to stake him on numerous occasions anyway.

Spike can't love in a complex human way...because he isn't human, period. Destroying the mythos of the show for the sake of Spuffy isn't something I would call unique or innovative.

He's a demon character who symbolises many human traits, we can get into technicalities as to what he "actually" is, but it's pretty irrelevant as to the symbolism. For its a human show made by human beings, the characters are bound to exhibit and symbolise human traits even if they say something else on the label.

They didn't destroy the mythos for the sake of Spuffy, there is so much going on in the later seasons aswell as Spuffy. By this mythos I expect you mean repeating what they did in the earlier series rather than trying something new, but then earlier you said Spuffy was just going over same old storylines and was not original, but then if this is the case how could could it have destroyed the mythos?

Not to mention that if we want to get really strict about innovativeness, Spike's story was pretty much a rehashing of Anya's story.

Anya, an ex-demon who becomes human against her will and new to all human ways. Spike, a vampire, wise in all human ways, who decides to become human again by winning himself back his soul... Rehashing the story in the sense of completely opposite and different maybe?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Anya, an ex-demon who becomes human against her will and new to all human ways. Spike, a vampire, wise in all human ways, who decides to become human again by winning himself back his soul... Rehashing the story in the sense of completely opposite and different maybe?

Anya was a jilted human who became a demon, Spike was a jilted human who became a vampire...

Anya became human against her will, Spike became humane against his will...

Anya fought and struggled with what being a human was to her now, Spike fought and struggled as to what makes a human a human...

Anya's first foray into 'human-ness' was as comic relief, Spike's first foray into becoming a human was comic relief...

They are very similar stories. They both even died doing the very thing that they thought meant they were human.

 

[BuffyThoughts]

Is Cecily a strong woman?

Yes. It made clear logical sense that Spike would fall in love with the most powerful woman around. That's what Spike does... he is drawn to and falls in love with the strong women.. Cecily, Dru, Buffy... there's a pattern. Plus it made both character evolve and develop in interesting ways.

Not to mention the sex was really hot

Was Cecily a strong woman? Maybe, but I don't think we see enough of her to know. My feeling was that she was a glamorous woman, in the manner of that time, little to do with character or accomplishment.

Perhaps Spike's pattern is to go for the cynosure?

 

[white avenger]

Was Cecily a strong woman? Maybe, but I don't think we see enough of her to know. My feeling was that she was a glamorous woman, in the manner of that time, little to do with character or accomplishment.

Perhaps Spike's pattern is to go for the cynosure?

Well, technically, it was William who was attracted to Cecily, not Spike. We don't know for sure just what his feelings were for her once he was turned. Maybe she wound up as the recipient of one of those infamous railroad spikes.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Maybe she wound up as the recipient of one of those infamous railroad spikes.

Or she turned into a vengeance demon!