Spoiler! Doctor Who: Spoiler Thread

[NotASlayer]

Can we get Rose back to this reality though?

"I'm the Doctor. I can do anything."

 

[TheMaster666]

I don't know if it's just me but I didn't take that comment from RTD seriously, it struck me as him saying anything is possible but it's not concrete that it's happened.
Either way I don't think it really changes the show because in the universe we've been watching it's still all the same up until the 14th and 15th doctors.

I've always thought of the incarnations getting darker and more damaged as they go along, because they all share the same memory, so I like that with Ncuti they've twisted it so (from what we've seen) he's pretty stable and happy because the 14th doctor has slowed down and processed all their trauma. 15 said to 14 "We're doing rehab out of order".
Things will go wrong for Ncuti's doctor as well because otherwise there's no drama but he's probably let go of the baggage from previous events and that's refreshing.

It does seem to be a hard reset for the show, which at this point is arguably for the best. On the official BBC page, they seem to distinguish the previous seasons from 2005 to present from the new era of the show that will stream on Disney+. There's just too much baggage. I think I'm not wrong in saying most fans probably want to pretend like the Chibnal//Jodie Whittaker years didn't happen, and we don't need to constantly rehash the Time War PTSD character arc. We already did that. I think Doctor Who needs to be fun again, like in the days of Tennant and Smith, to win back old fans and breathe new life into the show for new ones. That said, it is inevitable there will be dark moments at some point. Every drama needs that to fuel the drama.

 

[burrunjor]

@burrunjor

Other than Donna who else would be the 10th/14th Doctor's best friend?

Rose was his love interest in the end, and Martha was his friend but they weren't ever that close because he kept comparing her to Rose and she liked him romantically while he didn't like her back in that way. Meanwhile Donna is such a breath of fresh air because she's always only had platonic feelings for The Doctor. I'd say Donna becomes The Doctor's best friend the moment she puts her hands over his and choose to share some of the burden for sacrificing all the people in Pompeii. She's his humanity, that's why when The Doctor loses Donna he slips into being Timelord Victorious for a while. That's the storyline of series 4. I adore Donna and it's fair enough if you don't but the story does show why Donna is important to The Doctor.

I think it just speaks to insecurity if seeing Tennant's doctor say he loves Donna or she's the best is offensive, if Matt Smith's doctor said the same thing to Amy I wouldn't even think to be offended on Donna's behalf because it just goes without saying that Amy is the best friend for that particular doctor.

What do you mean insecurity? If you are making out I'm jealous of Donna, eh, not trust me you're not quite right there.

Again simply having platonic feelings for him (despite kissing him) is NOTHING special, when that applied to every companion of the first 26 years. Also she's his humanity? Aren't all of his companions who are human anyway? Why is she so much more special than Ace or Sarah in that regard?

Meanwhile reasons why Donna SHOULD be hated are

1/ She is a character who does everything better than the hero with the stupid Doctor/Donna arc where she got his powers and used them better than he ever could. Normally those types of characters are hated like Wesley Crusher or Clara.

2/ She undermines all of the most popular characters from new who in Journey's End when all of their solutions to stop the Daleks are easily defeated and some like Martha become genocidal psychopaths so she can swoop in and save the day. She also undermines some of the most popular from true who like Sarah and Davros, with the former being a bubbling idiot and the latter being defeated in a ridiculous way.

3/ She is constantly made out to be better than everyone and the most important person in the multiverse, and she is made out to be someone the Doctor as a whole likes more than any of his other companions, the only one that could make him smile or be happy, the only one he has de-regenerated for despite having NO REASON to stand out.

4/ She is a misandrist who insults and undermines the main character for his gender. She is also in a twisted relationship with her husband, where he is so cowed, she can give away 150 million pounds and he accepts it, and goes back to being a cabbie working 12 hour shifts, getting abused by his customers to support her and her mother and he still praises her and says I'm the luckiest man in London.

5/ She is LOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUDDDDDDD and obnoxious and her and Tennant's chemistry is too try hard look how quirky we are like that awful bit in Partners in Crime through the window.

The very idea that she is popular is, I don't know, it's insane.

 

[Bop]

nd we don't need to constantly rehash the Time War PTSD character arc.

Exactly, even though I loved the Time War arc, it's had enough time now. I'm curious to see what the new issue will be going forward.

Again simply having platonic feelings for him (despite kissing him) is NOTHING special, when that applied to every companion of the first 26 years. Also she's his humanity? Aren't all of his companions who are human anyway? Why is she so much more special than Ace or Sarah in that regard?

Donna kissed The Doctor to get poison out of him, and it worked precisely because it was a shock to The Doctor. Their relationship is completely platonic, and for the new show that was unique, especially in the RTD era. Lots of people who watch new who haven't seen the classic show so the amount of platonic relationships with The Doctor there wouldn't matter and even if they have seen it, Donna/The Doctor is still unique within the new show.

 

[burrunjor]

Exactly, even though I loved the Time War arc, it's had enough time now. I'm curious to see what the new issue will be going forward.



Donna kissed The Doctor to get poison out of him, and it worked precisely because it was a shock to The Doctor. Their relationship is completely platonic, and for the new show that was unique, especially in the RTD era. Lots of people who watch new who haven't seen the classic show so the amount of platonic relationships with The Doctor there wouldn't matter and even if they have seen it, Donna/The Doctor is still unique within the new show.

And yet Ace, Barbara, Jo, Leela managed to go much longer periods without kissing him at all. Also again it doesn't matter if it's unique to the RTD era as the whole point is she is praised as the best companion and for all the reasons I went through above Donna is absolute bollocks. She is the worst example of a creators pet I have ever seen in my life. Poor Lana Lang got shat on by tv tropes for years, whilst they kissed Donna's arse? It's insane..

Here's another example of Donna's awful misandry someone pointed out to me.

Imagine you're in Camden market and you happen to see a woman struggling with a big pile of boxes*. You kindly help her and how does she express her gratitude? By calling you "skinny man" and then telling you that you're too old for the clothes you are wearing. In real life, nobody would have anything to do with a horrible person like that. I never found Catherine Tate funny or appealing.

As I said to him. Imagine if a guy told a woman in her 50s that she was too old for that dress and that she should eat something. I've literally seen male characters who are meant to be horrible misogynists say those kinds of thing in other shows, like guy in the arguing couple in Harry Enfield whose meant to be an awful, hateful misogynist who says exactly his wife is too old to be wearing that dress to put her down or the awful sexist director that bullies Cordelia in Angel (to such an extent Angel wants to rip his head off, and we all agree with him LOL) There's a bit where Cordelia tells him she had food poisoning and he sneers "yeah you eat."

The only explanation for Donna's popularity is it's a lie repeated enough times it becomes accepted as fact. Under any scrutiny she is clearly the worst out of not just the RTD era, but the entirety of DW.

Her and Missy actively anger me as there are so many other writers and characters out there that have to deal with bigger backlashes despite not being anywhere near as actively offensively bad and annoying and destructive to their franchises as those shitty characters are. Like look at Adric? What did he do that was even a tenth as bad as those two abominations? Yet the backlash against him is insane. Similarly that Doomsday event recently for the 60th. People went insane against that? Why? It was nothing. It was just a piece of spin off material that went nowhere.

 

[Bop]

The only explanation for Donna's popularity is it's a lie repeated enough times it becomes accepted as fact. Under any scrutiny she is clearly the worst out of not just the RTD era, but the entirety of DW.

Where exactly would I have heard this lie? Because Donna was my favourite long before I was ever involved in any online discourse for Doctor Who, I just watched the show. Donna is popular because a lot of people love her.

Post automatically merged: Dec 16, 2023

Her and Missy actively anger me as there are so many other writers and characters out there that have to deal with bigger backlashes despite not being anywhere near as actively offensively bad and annoying and destructive to their franchises as those shitty characters are. Like look at Adric? What did he do that was even a tenth as bad as those two abominations? Yet the backlash against him is insane. Similarly that Doomsday event recently for the 60th. People went insane against that? Why? It was nothing. It was just a piece of spin off material that went nowhere.

It's not Donna's fault that some people hate on other writers or characters, it would be better to just defend Adric rather than try and get people to hate Donna as much as they do Adric.

 

[burrunjor]

Where exactly would I have heard this lie? Because Donna was my favourite long before I was ever involved in any online discourse for Doctor Who, I just watched the show. Donna is popular because a lot of people love her.

Post automatically merged: Dec 16, 2023

It's not Donna's fault that some people hate on other writers or characters, it would be better to just defend Adric rather than try and get people to hate Donna as much as they do Adric.

I didn't mean every single person who likes Donna, more just the magazines and forums, which are often run by people who were viewers back in the Hartnell or at least the Davison era, but who claim they love a character that insults the lead of a show they've been following for decades. Meanwhile I don't really care much for Adric LOL, I just think it's unbelievable that he became the hate figure when at worst, he's a companion played by a bit of a wooden actor.

Meanwhile I don't want backlashes like the type Adric got for anyone, but it should be acknowledged what Donna and Missy did do the show, rather than either those opinions being airbrushed out, or bare faced lies being spread like Missy channelled Delgado.

 

[Bop]

Meanwhile I don't really care much for Adric LOL, I just think it's unbelievable that he became the hate figure when at worst, he's a companion played by a bit of a wooden actor.

Adric is just the Connor of Doctor Who, but I like both characters. I think the worst from the classic show are Turlough and Ben, they aren't my cup of tea.

 

[burrunjor]

Adric is just the Connor of Doctor Who, but I like both characters. I think the worst from the classic show are Turlough and Ben, they aren't my cup of tea.

Adric is nowhere near as bad as Connor.

I mean it's all just taste, but even then there are objective reasons why some characters are bad I feel. You need to strike the balance of not being an opinion police, which I admit yes, I have had a VERY bad habit of being, and pointing out when there are certain decisions that can harm something objectively. A character who ages it perhaps by representing a bad stereotype, one whose story arc drags it into a hole it struggles to get out of, one who is perhaps shilled a bit too much etc represent more objective problems. You can still like those characters for other reasons like the actors performance or other parts that are good, but I feel when doing an objective review need to at least acknowledge some of those faults, or not shut down anyone who does at least and try and understand why they would dislike it.

Doctor Who fandom is weird in this respect. Buffy fandom I can get on with as they do tend to point point more objective flaws.

Connor for instance regardless of whether you like the actors performance or parts of his story arc, I think it has to be said objectively he was problematic and fans aren't just picking on him because. He was involved in a creepy love triangle that nobody wanted to see. (One where if you think about it, he and Cordelia were r****d as she was trapped in her body with no consent by Jasmine, and he had been misled into who he was shagging. It turned out to be his daughter!) Connor also constantly undermined other characters relationships like Wesley/Angel who had to have a falling out for a year, before it just went back to normal, Cordelia/Angel who if you liked that yeah you were screwed (and even if you didn't like them together like me, seeing Cordy boink Connor was pretty creepy too,) he took time away in an already overcrowded cast, constantly went off the rails and attacked the other characters and had a ridiculously inconsistent power level. (One week he is made out to be a little bitch Faith can take down like a naughty kid, the next he can beat up Angel, who thrashed Faith, when Angels backed up by Gunn and Wesley,) and finally he tended to hit the same beats all the time. (This is obviously talking about S4 Connor, not the adorable, lovable S5 version.)

DW fans however, not only do they gloss over the bad bits, and shout down any criticism with personal abuse on some forums, they pick on the most harmless, inoffensive things like Adric and that 60th celebration Doom to absolutely shit on for all eternity.

Adric doesn't do anything as disruptive story wise as Connor. He is just a bit wooden and that's that! He doesn't get involved in a creepy love triangle with Nyssa and the Doctor, constantly attack the Doctor, tell the Doctor he hates him every week etc. To be honest Adric is more comparable to Oz, in terms of being just a kind of "he was there" companion. Seth Green is a better actor, but even then he arguably gets less to do so it evens out.

Again a character who does do shit like Connor is Donna. Objectively she doesn't work story wise, as she is made out to be better than the Doctor thereby undermines the main protagonist, insults him all the time and he takes it, is made out to be the best person in the multiverse, undermines the Daleks and Davros by thrashing them easily and Sarah Jane and Martha who have to be made into doofuses or genocidal maniacs so she can swoop in, she is openly misandristic etc. Yet she gets praised and Adric hated on?

I've often said DW fans remind me of Bernard from Black Books. For those of you who haven't seen it, Bernard is a hilarious character who seems to get angry at the most unimportant things but shrugs off things that would piss people off. Like in one episode his hapless friend Manny locks him out in the freezing rain through his own stupidity for an entire night and in the morning when Bernard shows up and Manny tries to apologise, Bernard just says "forget it." In another however when Manny tries to say "Let's paaaaaaaartttyyyyyy" Bernard threatens him with violence and says "don't you dare use the word party as a verb in this shop!"

That's DW fans all over. "What you've undone decades of Master/Doctor rivalry to make the Master into River Song. 4.0? Moffat has thrown out every single aspect of the Masters character and done it because he openly despises the character? Fantastic. Moffat truly gets the Master and has honored Roger Delgado. What's this a minor companion who was there for a year and had quite a cool ending, but didn't really do much one way or the other and whose actor was a bit inexperience? STAB, STAB, STAB, STAB, KILL, KILL, KILL DIEEEEEE!"

"What's this a bit of spin off material like Doom is a bit silly and aimed at kids? UNFORGIVABLE! Oh RTD wasted the 60th anniversary to do a circle jerk about his own era, and nothing else, and fills it full of cringe inducing right on nonsense and basically gets rid of the Doctor, whilst having him be demeaned for a man? Fantastic this man is our lord and savior."

It gets so frustrating.

 

[Bop]

What's this a bit of spin off material like Doom is a bit silly and aimed at kids?

I don't accept the aimed at kids defense because Sarah Jane Adventures was aimed at kids yet it was still well written which is probably a huge reason I still watch it today as an adult. But the Doom stuff did genuinely look crap and stupid, which shouldn't be for people of any age. But yeah I'm not going to worry too much about it because I mainly care about what happens in the TV universe.

I see Donna completely differently to you- for example where you seem to see Donna putting The Doctor down I see it as banter between close friends. In terms of the series 4 finale Donna does save the day but that's what her character arc led up to throughout the series, it's why destiny brought them together. It would be strange for Sarah Jane or Martha to save the day because they're guest stars but I don't think that is putting them down at all. They all do something to help save the day in some way.
Also Donna was only able to save the day because she absorbed the Doctor's energy so he had a hand it in as well, Donna couldn't have done it by herself and additionally Donna suffers and has to lose her memory as a consequence of absorbing the energy because her mind can't handle it unlike The Doctor's mind. So I don't read that as Donna being better than The Doctor.

Post automatically merged: Dec 17, 2023

Of course sometimes they miss the mark- I don't like the scene in The Star Beast where Rose and Donna are telling The Doctor that he can't understand letting go because he's a man, that didn't feel like banter, that felt vindictive, like they were putting The Doctor down. So in cases like that I would agree with you but imo it doesn't happen in that way often enough for it to ruin Donna in my eyes.

 

[NotASlayer]

So.

There was a musical number. That was different.

A combination of light and dark.

And who is Ruby's mother? Not learning anything about her, when that could have been easily done, suggests this is important.

 

[Cohen]

I thought the musical bit was fun!

It felt like a classic Davies episode. Whim and wonder.

I agree that Ruby’s mother will probably be an arc for series 14. I think it’s 8 episodes this year?

I really like Millie and Ncuti’s chemistry. They work really well together. I don’t see it as a romantic thing either. It’s like Davies brought the best of Rose and Donna into the character!

Ncuti brings such a great new energy to the Doctor. I’m excited for this new season! Hate we have to wait a few more months. I was hoping we would get started later in January.

 

[Bop]

I liked everything with Ruby and The Doctor- especially seeing how they are similar for both being 'foundlings' and not knowing where they come from since they are sticking with The Timeless Child I'm glad they're at least using the idea to connect The Doctor to their companion.

I also appreciate how they showed an unfavourable but realistic side to Ruby's adoptive mother, people do foster children just for the money in real life and it seems like that was the case with Ruby and her adoptive mother in the very beginning but that developed into a real bond over time and it's sweet how Ruby made her adoptive mother a better foster mother to other children.

 

[NotASlayer]

@Bop When the Doctor watched Ruby's mother walk away and didn't go and see her, I did wonder if that was because he recognised her; I kind of got that impression. And I then thought "Please don't be Missy!"

I need to rewatch that scene.

 

[NotASlayer]

I rewatched it and the scene where the Doctor watches Ruby's biological mother walk off does seem odd.

And just because.

 

[Bop]

@Bop When the Doctor watched Ruby's mother walk away and didn't go and see her, I did wonder if that was because he recognised her; I kind of got that impression. And I then thought "Please don't be Missy!"

I need to rewatch that scene.

Yeah I really wanted The Doctor to go after her but I'm thinking he didn't because he was connecting it too much to not knowing his own parents or maybe he was concerned about interfering with time.

 

[Bop]

How would everyone rank the 2023 specials?

I'd say:

1. Wild Blue Yonder
2. The Church on Ruby Road
3. The Giggle
4. The Star Beast

 

[Cohen]

1. The Giggle
2. Church on Ruby Road
3. Wild Blue Yonder
4. Star Beast

 

[Btvs fan]

So I saw the Christmas Day special (on boxing day) of the new Dr Who and new Doctor.

My god that was terrible. The writing was truly atrocious with contrivance galore and the show using fantasy instead Sci fi with Goblins and that ridiculous musical number.

As for the acting !. Sorry but the new Dr lacks the gravitas of 1000 Yr old being of infinite knowledge. While his new companion could be replaced by a plank of wood and I don't think you'd know the difference.

All in all a terrible beginning. Which I suspect Russell T Davis was aware of which is why he has David Tennant on ice, to bring back when things get really bad.

 

[NotASlayer]

I don't think the Doctor necessarily needs gravitas. He isn't so much a thousand-year-plus old being when he regenerates and gets a personality rewrite, but a brand new one with a brand new personality that happens to have a thousand years of memories.

Though if they'd chosen the actor I wanted - Colin Salmon - I think he definitely would have had gravitas!