Does this make Spike a better vampire then Angel?

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I dont see how Spike is a better vamp than Angel... they both have a soul.. are both champions and good... and Buffy loves them both.. equals...

BUT Spike and Buffy match better than Angel and Buffy now... but in Buffy's teenage years is when it was the Bangel era :silly:

Both Spike and Angel have done some pretty bad stuff in their pasts.. but they arent those people anymore... they are good and all soul like... and they both did save the world... a lot
 
No. Because he got his soul back for the wrong reasons. He thought that by getting his soul back that would make Buffy love him.
 
Slayergal said:
No. Because he got his soul back for the wrong reasons. He thought that by getting his soul back that would make Buffy love him.
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Spike wanted his soul back so he could be a better man. Angel was cursed and stuck with a soul because he killed some gypsy girl.
 
Really? Oh I thought we – as in most fans – were pretty much agreeing that Spike meant to get his soul back. If you think he wanted to be a vampire, he definitely wasn't a better man. Now, I'm not saying he necessarily was – but I do think he wanted his soul back, that he wanted to be a man good enough for Buffy.. Doesn't he basically tell her that in season 7? (When burning on the cross?)
 
He wanted to get his soul to be a better man, not for the wrong reasons.. spike wanted to be treated as a man, and buffy wouldnt have given him that... well not compared to angel.. the difference people is.. spike chose to get a soul.. angel didnt!
 
If Spike wanted to get his soul back for the wrong reasons (not that I believe he did) what about Angel? He didnt ask for it at all. In fact he rejected it as much as he could.
 
VisionGuy
VisionGuy
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How..?^^^ Angelus/Angel separate beings sharing the same body...Liam's soul was to punish Angelus and i believe it punished Liam aswell for the bad things he did.Angel rejected it as much as he could..? well he never tried to go evil ever in the show..so you must mean Angelus but even Angelus never forsaw a soul being thrust on him.Angel brooded for sure after having a soul put on him the guilt was soo much he felt he was a monster as stated in an eppy....( i can't remmeber it might have been s2 "Darla" or "Dear boy")
So he stays outta humans way afraid he'll be a danger, he overwhelms himself in the guilt he feel's short of self flagelation.Till Whistler shows him Buffy who teaches him to be a part of the good fight.
 
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postmortem
That's what I call a short summary of the show.
Yes, I was talking about Angelus. And if you recall, when he got his soul back he still killed people (yeah, it was bad guys, but still) and still tried to stay with Darla. This, to me, is rejecting the fact that he had a soul. He wanted to stay evil and be with Darla. He didnt want his soul.
 
"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men." Angel spent one hundred years in silence, knowing the extent of evil on earth.

When Angel becomes a champion, he wants to feel atoned, redeemed. To have his sins washed clean. There is a difference between doing what is good, and what is right. Angel ONLY makes that distinction near the latter end of season 5. Spike understands the difference BEFORE he gets his soul.

Buffy Summers said:
See I still maintain that Spike didn't intentionally get his soul back 😉
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And I maintain that bunnys will one day rule the world. 😉
 
What exactly do you guys mean when you say that Spike wanted his soul back for the "wrong" reasons? (Sorry if I'm slow..)

Dzhugashvili said:
When Angel becomes a champion, he wants to feel atoned, redeemed. To have his sins washed clean. There is a difference between doing what is good, and what is right. Angel ONLY makes that distinction near the latter end of season 5. Spike understands the difference BEFORE he gets his soul.
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I agree about Angel, but am not sure if either of the vampires with a soul really understand this. Well finally they do, but I don't think Spike got it before he got a soul.
 
Well you would have to accurately define what is 'right', what is 'good', what is the difference between the two and when one matters more.

Spike enjoyed being an evil vampire, he enjoyed the "crunch" it was a party to him. Getting a soul is clearly making a sacrifice.

He thinks Buffy deserves a man. To Spike being a vampire is a profound experience, having no rules, doing what you want. An eternal lifelong party. Becomming a man is a step down, a step backwards.

Spike isn't doing good by it, but its the right thing to do.

Angel sacrificed his life to do right, Spike sacrificed his happiness.
 
Dzhugashvili said:
Well you would have to accurately define what is 'right', what is 'good', what is the difference between the two and when one matters more.

Spike enjoyed being an evil vampire, he enjoyed the "crunch" it was a party to him. Getting a soul is clearly making a sacrifice.

He thinks Buffy deserves a man. To Spike being a vampire is a profound experience, having no rules, doing what you want. An eternal lifelong party. Becomming a man is a step down, a step backwards.

Spike isn't doing good by it, but its the right thing to do.

Angel sacrificed his life to do right, Spike sacrificed his happiness.
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Yeah if Spike had gone and gotten a soul before season 4 he would have been sacrificing his happiness, but at the time he did it he was not happy.

He was a vampire that couldn't do what made him happy! Getting a soul was like an out for him, He was stuck in the middle of being good and being Evil and he couldn't be either.
 
Angel did sacrifice his happiness for the greater good too Buffy, Conner.
In i will remember you and Home, because it was what Conner wanted a home, family, and what BEG said.
 
The thing that makes Spike a better man than Angel is that, even before he won his soul, he knew the difference between right and wrong and, over time, began to fight on the side of right just because it was the right thing to do. Granted, after the chip, he only helped Buffy and her friends for either protection or money, and at first he only fought demons to satisfy his need for violence, but in the end, before the soul, he genuinely loved buffy and Dawn, and at least tolerated the others. Angel, on the other hand (or Angelus, to make the distinction) was always evil and self serving. Could any of us imagine Buffy asking an unsouled Angel(us) to take care of Dawn before she went out for her final confrontation with Glory, or asking him to protect her mother and sister from the same Big Bad? Remimber, she intended for Spike to protect Dawn once more even AFTER the rape attempt. There is simply no comparison between the two vampires. Spike is h hero, the man who the Slayer chose as her Champion. Angel is only a temporary condition imposed on an evil being who constantly struggles to reassert his dominance.
 
S
Schillaci
We march to the beat of the same drum. :p
Would Buffy have asked Spike from season 2? - Because that’s the only person we can compare Angelus too.

Spike wasn't some vampire that saw the error of his ways and made a decision to change, He was a product of adaptation! The chip was installed in his head and he was forced to change.

But you are right to say we can't compare the too, because Angel didn't have a way to change like spike did when he was a vampire. You could only compare them if angel had been given a chip too. spike would have continued being Evil if it hadn't been for the chip!

white avenger said:
The thing that makes Spike a better man than Angel is that, even before he won his soul, he knew the difference between right and wrong and, over time, began to fight on the side of right just because it was the right thing to do.
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The last thing spike did before getting a soul was attempt to rape Buffy, he clearly wasn't able to see right from wrong!
 
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Sorry to disagree, Black Eye, but the last thing Spike did before attempting to get a soul was to STOP HIS ATTACK on the Slayer, and before you say that she fought him off, review the scene and look at the look of shock on Spike's face when he realized what he had been attempting to do. An evil amoral monster would have renewed the attack if that was his intention. A caring, moral man would come to his senses. What would Angelus have done under those circumstances? Both are soulless monsters, right? You can't compare an ensouled Angel with a soulless Spike and get a true picture of either man. Spike is the same, regardless of whether he has a soul or not. Angel/Angelus most certainly is not.
 
white avenger said:
Sorry to disagree, Black Eye, but the last thing Spike did before attempting to get a soul was to STOP HIS ATTACK on the Slayer, and before you say that she fought him off, review the scene and look at the look of shock on Spike's face when he realized what he had been attempting to do. An evil amoral monster would have renewed the attack if that was his intention. A caring, moral man would come to his senses. What would Angelus have done under those circumstances? Both are soulless monsters, right? You can't compare an ensouled Angel with a soulless Spike and get a true picture of either man. Spike is the same, regardless of whether he has a soul or not. Angel/Angelus most certainly is not.
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A caring moral man wouldnt have attempted rape in the first place.
 
Black Eye Guy
Black Eye Guy
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You think it was a rape? That's singular. :D
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