Does this make Spike a better vampire then Angel?

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Emma Caulfield

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I was thinking, Angel was "cursed" with a soul but Spike "won" his soul back. Does this make Spike a better vampire then Angel?
 
Not really. Spike was "cursed" in a way too, I mean it's not like he chose to have that chip and start fighting vampires and demons instead of humans. If the Initiative had never put that chip in his head he'd never chosen to get his soul back and he had still been that evil vampire. Though I see what you're saying, Spike "turned" good while he was still a vampire without a soul, you could say that he chose to become good, in a way, but not really.. But I don't know if that makes him a better vampire or not..
 
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Cordelia
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Jenny
Jenny
Good point, you changed my mind on the situation.
spike has a history of doing the craziest things to impress his women, getting a soul for buffy was somewhere on that list as well. there was not a single heroic aspect to him getting himself a soul. he thought he would have better chance in getting through toher this way because angel had a soul. truth is, spike had no ideawhat he was getting himself into. it was an impolsive decision done for the wrong reasons only. you can hardly glorify him after this.
 
yes, spikes better his humanity always shone thru even in season 2 he got his soul voluntarily and did a hell of a lot to get , sure you could write it off as something to impress buffy but it was also for himself to be a better man sur he didnt ask for the chip ---- but that just put em' on his intended path ( I hope somebody gets what I'm saying)--- so yaeh I think spikes betta hell sopmebody should...
 
well yeah, sure one could "write it off" like he did it for buffy, except for that... that won't be necessary as that was already said on *both* shows (by spike himself among others).

something i thought i should add:

beneath you:

Spike: It's what you wanted, right?
Buffy: Tell me what happened.
Spike: Why does a man do what he mustn't? For her.
Buffy: Your soul. You got your soul back.

get it done:

Spike: Holding back? You're blind. I've been here, right in it - fighting, scrapping...
Buffy: Since you got your soul back?
Spike: Well, as a matter of fact, I haven't quite been relishing the kill the way I used to.
Buffy: You were a better fighter then.
Spike: I did this for you. The soul, the changes - it's what you wanted.
Buffy: What I want is the Spike that's dangerous. The Spike that tried to kill me when we met.

never leave me:

Buffy: How did you do it? How'd you get your soul back?
Spike: Saw a man about a girl. I went to seek a legend out. Traveled to the other side of the world, made a deal with a demon.
Buffy: Just like that?
Spike: No, not just like that. There was a price. There were trials, torture, pain and suffering... of sorts.
Buffy: Of sorts?
Spike: Well, it's all relative, isn't it?
Buffy: Meaning?
Spike: Meaning I have come to redefine the words pain and suffering since I fell in love with you.

destiny:

Spike: Well, that's just it. I am. And you know it. You had a soul forced on you - as a curse. Make you suffer for all the horrible things you'd done. But me... I fought for my soul. Went through the demon trials. Almost did me in a dozen times over, but I kept fighting. 'Cause I knew it was the right thing to do. It's my destiny.
Angel: Really? Heard it was just to get into a girl's pants.
 
Wicca said:
truth is, spike had no ideawhat he was getting himself into. it was an impolsive decision done for the wrong reasons only. you can hardly glorify him after this.
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I agree that he had no idea what he was getting himself into. And sure, he did it for Buffy. But he didn't do it so that he could say "hey Buffy, I've got a soul, love me now". He did it so he could be a better man, the kind of man she deserved. Not just so that she would like him, but so that he would be more worthy of her. Not saying that means he did it to save the word or anything, but he wanted to do good, he wanted to be a "real" man.
 
I can do whatever I want to its my opionion, he did it so he would not hurt buffy after he realized his actions and to be a better man---- I'm sure he knew what he was getting into seeking out a legend and going thru a hell of a lot of pain ---- he worked for it , and it should not be thrown under a rug as many people but not all think of Spike sure the ending in Grave it confusing --- but hell what else would have he got cause he could alraedy hurt buffy ---- :


+ I take anything angels says to one not knowing the whole story and jealosy---+ Spike had already gotten into her pants what he wanted even while intheir sexual relationship was to get into her heart ::heart:: wich he did!
 
(When I said he didn't know what he was getting himself into, I didn't mean what he had to do to get his soul back. I meant, he had no idea what would happen to him when he got his soul back, he had no idea what having a soul (again) meant, and what it would feel like. Didn't mean that made him less "brave" (definetly not the right word, heh), or whatever..)
 
berkeled said:
I can do whatever I want to its my opionion,
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ahuh. we're all entitled to have opinions, but i for one, when and if i want mine to be taken seriously, i tend to base it on the cannon (aka facts) instead of ignoring it to make something look better/different.
 
Please stay on topic. We are all entitled to our own opinions. It's pretty much been established here numerous times. Thanks 😀
 
No because he did it for the wrong reasons.

And did Spike even want his soul back? Because personally I thought it looked like he was going to get something to do some damage to Buffy. Especially with his shock when the demon tells him he is going to receive his soul back.

SPIKE: Yeah. I seek you.
DEMON: Something about a woman. The slayer.
SPIKE: (nods, barely concealed anger) Thinks she's better than me. Ever since I got this bleeding chip in my head, things ain't been right. Everything's gone to hell.
DEMON: And you want to return to your former self.
SPIKE: Yeah.

Close on the green glowing eyes as the demon laughs evilly.

SPIKE: What?
DEMON: Look what she's reduced you to.
SPIKE: It's this bloody chip-
DEMON: You were a legendary dark warrior, and you let yourself be castrated. (Spike looking angry) And you have the audacity to crawl in here and demand restoration?
SPIKE: I'm still a warrior.
DEMON: You're a pathetic excuse for a demon.
SPIKE: (angry) Yeah? I'll show you pathetic. Give me your best shot.
DEMON: You'd never endure the trials required to grant your request.
SPIKE: Do your worst. But when I win ... I want what I came here for.
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Spike never says anything about wanting a soul. And if you look at the words in context, it seems like he wants his chip back or something so he can kill Buffy. That is just how I interpreted it though.
 
I don't think that Spike getting his soul makes him a better vampire than Angel really. I mean, Angel didn't really have a choice when he got his soul (he didn't have a say in whether he got it or not) and even though it's obvious that Angel does want to keep his soul so does Spike so I don't think you can use that to say which is a better vamp.

I think they're both just different aspects of a vampire; they're both vamps, same "family", both used to like distruction, both had a thing for Buffy but they're like total opposites. Angel's usually quiet- Spikes louder, Angel broods a lot- Spike, not so much, Angel has dark hair- Spike is a bleach blonde.

But as far as who's a better vamp goes, since vampires are "suppossed" to be evil, blood-thirsty, slayer- killing, creatures of the night I think (to a vampire of course, NOT my opinion!) they'd be kinda "insulting" to the vampire race. (Post souls)
 
I have to say, I originally thought he 'might' have been the better vampire for going through the trials, AND for doing it out of love (even though he had no sould when he made the decision to do so).

But after reading some of the other arguments stating he isn't, I'm kind of leaning that way now.

Thanks a bunch guys 😉
 
Slayer said:
Spike never says anything about wanting a soul. And if you look at the words in context, it seems like he wants his chip back or something so he can kill Buffy. That is just how I interpreted it though.
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Really? I always thought of that as a tease, it made you belive he wanted to become the fully fledged vampire he was before when really he wanted his soul so Buffy could love him like she loved Angel.
 
No because Angel and Spike were vampires without souls for over 100 years and neither fought to get their souls back. It took Spike falling in love to do that. So your questions is sort of like "Are people who fall in love better than people who don't fall in love?"

Falling in love makes a person want to be a better person, so naturally Spike would want his soul back.
But Angelus had developed an obsession with Buffy too, the way Spike started out. He wasn't around long enough, maybe he would have fallen with her as well..
So it's unfair to compare because Spikeus was around Buffy a lot longer than Angelus was. We don't know what he would have ended up doing or feeling.
 
No offense meant, but Angelus' obsession with Buffy was torturing the living s**t out of her cause of the way she made him feel when he had a soul (self-loathing was a part of Angel's character with or without the soul). He just wanted to cause her as much pain as possible before killing her (much like he did with Drusilla).

The thing that has to be remembered was that Spike started to change and do good before he got his soul back. Whether that makes him better than Angel, I don't know, but it definitely gets him a few bonus points.
 
C
Cookie Dough
he had a chip in his head
A
Anchovy
well said.
Listen up ...

Just because Angel had his soul first doesn't mean anything.
Angel was the worst of people/vampires before he gained a soul, he cared about nothing but himself.

Spike cared about others when he didn't have a soul. And he was a good man when he was being all evil. And he choose to have a soul because he wanted balence and to be a better man/demon.
 
Wesley's Sylyna said:
Just because Angel had his soul first doesn't mean anything.
Angel was the worst of people/vampires before he gained a soul, he cared about nothing but himself.
he choose to have a soul because he wanted balence and to be a better man/demon.
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But not to stop killing people, just to get buffy to love him. i would say that is selfish too.
 
P
postmortem
You have a point.
No he didn't do it because he was selfish. He did it so he would become the kind of man Buffy deserved, whether she would choose to be with him or not, he wanted to be the kind of man she deserved. Not saying Spike did it just to be good, he had plans, but he did it to be a better man.
 
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