Empty Places

[GATEGOD]

lol.

Making your closest friend feel like nothing, when all she was trying was to protect them from the coming darkness is failure! She was right, even if she didn't know it at the time. Going back and getting into the place was the right thing to do. So you are saying she failed them because she wanted to move through on a plan that ultimately happened anyway, was successful and got them their greatest weapon..?

 

[Blondie Bear]

Nobody except a brainless automaton follows a leader who won't be questioned, won't accept advice and insists on following a reckless course of action that has ALREADY failed, with fatal consequences.

Hm. Rather mirrors the current political situation in the U.S., don't it?

I think the major thing here is, is Buffy the boss, or isn't she? Are they at war or aren't they? In the U.S. military, soldiers are required to follow any lawful orders given to them by a superior officer, REGARDLESS of whether it will get them killed or how stupid it is. When the Potentials first showed up, they were all ready to fall in line, learn how to be Slayers, and be part of the Slayer army fighting the First. When they realize just how fatal fighting the forces of evil can be, they freak out and refuse to do it anymore. If soldiers--in ANY army--acted this way, the country they defend would be overrun and occupied within DAYS.

So, while I think Buffy might not have been thinking in terms of the group--because going back in to the vineyard is exactly what she would do while on her own--the Potentials had no right to question her authority and kick her out.

 

[Cordelia Chase*]

Once again I agree. BUffy was doing what she thought was right. Everyone saw her as the LEADER and wanted to know whats next. Buffy had a plan. They shot her down. SHe went alone and was right. They were hiding something.


ANd I noticed long ago, that the Slayer prophecy said something about the slayer always being alone. Thats true. Its always somewhere towards the end of a season when Buffy feels alone before the "Big Fight"

 

[Jaded Wolf]

People always demand a leader so then one steps up and starts leading. However, once that person starts to lead and implements policies and direction, the people turn because they didn't quite have the same vision. They really never wanted a leader but instead someone who would do what they wanted but be able to take the blame. It's sort of passive-aggressive technique that is used. That is what I think happened with Buffy. She didn't want to be the leader but everyone said she needed to be. So when Buffy takes the reins and wants her "soldiers" to enter a hard place, they get scared and turn on her.

 

[celestialarrow]

i watched empty places yesterday and i wanted to cry after seeing how the scooby gang turned on buffy i mean she made one mistake and every body started coming at her even willow, xander, and dawny i felt like if they felt that way considering the history they have with buffy they could have pulled her off to the side instead of bombarding her with the others the only thing that got me through was knowing spike had buffy's back no matter what and if he was there it would'nt went down like that.

 

[sosa lola]

I think they were mostly against her new plan, which was exactly like her old plan. If they were really pissed that she screwed up, they'd have kicked her out in Dirty Girls, won't they?

 

[SH3RRI3]

Yeah I know what you mean, nobody is perfect and they came down on her for one mistake. Granted the mistake wasn't a small one but it could have been a lot bigger in the sense that she would have just stayed there fighting but she knew that she had made a mistake and shouldn't have gone in blind. I just felt so sorry for her when everybody turned against her because you could then see that she really didn't have eanyone but spike and possibly andrew to some extent. All through the scene where they were arguing I just wish that Spike would walk through the door and make them all look like complete fools for not trusting her but sdly it never happened.

Although, the spike and andrew scene on the motorbike was cool "You tell anyone we had this conversation and i'l bite you." I just love that hehe

 

[celestialarrow]

you know what i hate to say it but after they turned on buffy if i was her i would have left sunnydale i mean for the first time in a long time buffy was free she didnt have the mantle of being the leader faith took over that burden. i would have left and went on a vacation or something i know it would hurt in the long run but me and spike would be sipping margaritas in hawaii.

 

[SpikedBuffy]

I've always hated this part of season seven. I can't stand it when they all tell her to leave her own house.

I remember that I did make the comment once that Buffy should've just let them all die and saved herself after the way they treated her, but now I don't think that way. I think it speaks volumes for Buffy's character that she came back and saved the day. She turned out to be a true hero, going up against Caleb to get the scythe with in the end was the thing that beat the First. She went and got the scythe because of the strength Spike gave her, and she didn't have to do that. She could've let the group get her down and she didn't.

 

[Lyle]

Well I just saw this episode for the first time a few nights ago, and I just had to give my opinion on the subject...

I can see where a few of the characters are coming from, but I think Buffy was completely in the right. Here's how I break it down by character:
Faith: Definitely the best of the bunch, Faith shouldn't have called Buffy out about the plan in front of the whole group, but she also tried to calm the situation down, so I can sympathize with her.
Xander: He should've stuck up for Buffy, but obviously he'd had a rough night. Losing an eye had to be a really jarring experience, and Giles trust comment probably misled Xander. I don't completely agree with what he did but I'm not all the way against him either.
Willow: She had a lot of influence in the group and I think she should've used that to help Buffy. Even if she didn't agree she still should've reinforced that Buffy was the leader, but she didn't do that.
Anya: Totally wrong, she was just trying to hurt Buffy...her thing about Buffy being lucky was stupid too. Buffy wasn't better because she was the Slayer, she was better because she always put saving the world first, even above her own life. She was a hero who had proven herself time after time, and that's what made her the leader.
Giles: Giles was awesome through most of the first 6 seasons, but this scene just ruined him for me. He knew Buffy was a hero, he'd even said so back in The Gift. He was just mad she didn't agree with all his decisions, so he undermined her in front of the group.
Dawn: I could see where shes been hurt by Buffy ignoring her, but still...this was her sister. The one who'd given her life to save her. Dawn could've shown a lot of maturity if she would've stood up for her. Oh, and it wasn't her house at all, she's a minor, she owns no part of it.

But the Potentials were definitely the ones who made me the most angry! Buffy saved all their lives, she let them stay in her house for free, she fed them, and she trained them. They were potential slayers, it was their duty to be willing to die to save the world. Rona complained a lot, but she sure wasn't complaining when Buffy saved her from the Bringers. They were all fine when they got to pal around and have little training sessions in the backyard, but then when they were expected to actually try and save the world, they got cold feet. The Potentials were all cowards.

I'll end on this. Buffy didn't own anyone there. It's tough to have to risk your life, even for something as big as saving the world. But that house belonged to Buffy. If anyone had a problem with following her orders, they should leave, not complain until Buffy had to leave. Put me in Buffy's shoes, and I'd be saying "You can follow orders, or you can pack your things and get out by sunrise." Anyone who didn't want to do either could leave on a stretcher.

 

[LadyLavinia]

In the U.S. military, soldiers are required to follow any lawful orders given to them by a superior officer, REGARDLESS of whether it will get them killed or how stupid it is. When the Potentials first showed up, they were all ready to fall in line, learn how to be Slayers, and be part of the Slayer army fighting the First.

You're comparing the Potentials to U.S. Army soldiers? Are you kidding? Buffy never had that kind of authority over them. She never had the right to hunt them down and put them behind bars if they had decided to go AWOL.

So, while I think Buffy might not have been thinking in terms of the group--because going back in to the vineyard is exactly what she would do while on her own--the Potentials had no right to question her authority and kick her out.

I'm amazed at how hypocritical people can be. Honestly. In the past seasons, when Buffy continuously resisted Giles' attempt to keep her on the Slayer path and disregard her private life, the viewers cheered Buffy. When she resisted and eventually rejected the authority of the Watchers' Council, the fans cheered. When she resisted the authority of the Initiative, the fans cheered.

Buy when Buffy became an authority figure in Season 7 and ended up being rejected by the Potentials for her own flaws and bad judgement calls . . . the fans condemned them for not blindly following her.

Apparently, it was okay for Buffy to resist or reject authority figures. But when she became an authority figure - and not a very good one at that, the fans decided that no one had the right to resist or reject her.

I also find it interesting that Giles was the one person who had received the least criticism from the fans. He was the one who had insisted that Buffy lead the Potentials. He was the one who had taught her to be a killer, instead of a leader. And when she failed to become an effective leader - no surprise there - he was the one who constantly complained about her ineffectiveness. And then to make matters worse, he betrayed her by trying to get Spike killed behind her back . . . and never expressed any remorse for his actions. Naturally this pissed off Buffy. But when she finally rejected his role as her authority figure, he became resentful and even more critical . . . and stabbed her in the back, again. And yet, the fans ended up expressing hostility toward characters like the Potentials (especially Kennedy and Rona), Robin Wood, Dawn and the Scoobies. I guess as a long established authority figure, Giles was exempt from their hostility. Well, from the hostility of most fans. There are those who keep claiming that Giles had changed during Season 7. And there were those who condemned him as much as they condemned the others. By the way, I don't think that Giles had changed. I think that Buffy's view of him had.

If there is one thing I will condemn all of them - Dawn, the Potentials, the Scoobies, Wood and Giles - for is tossing Buffy out of her house. It was her house. If they did not want to follow her, they should have left. But Buffy is also to blame for allowing them to kick her out of her own home.

 

[Blondie Bear]

You're comparing the Potentials to U.S. Army soldiers? Are you kidding? Buffy never had that kind of authority over them. She never had the right to hunt them down and put them behind bars if they had decided to go AWOL.

I'm not so much comparing as using them as an example. No, she couldn't have hunted them down and killed them for deserting. (She wouldn't need to; we saw what happened when Annabel tried it. But that's beside the point.) But the idea is still basically the same. They're fighting a war. Someone has to have the final say. That someone was Buffy. Period.

I'm amazed at how hypocritical people can be. Honestly. In the past seasons, when Buffy continuously resisted Giles' attempt to keep her on the Slayer path and disregard her private life, the viewers cheered Buffy. When she resisted and eventually rejected the authority of the Watchers' Council, the fans cheered. When she resisted the authority of the Initiative, the fans cheered.

Buy when Buffy became an authority figure in Season 7 and ended up being rejected by the Potentials for her own flaws and bad judgement calls . . . the fans condemned them for not blindly following her.

Apparently, it was okay for Buffy to resist or reject authority figures. But when she became an authority figure - and not a very good one at that, the fans decided that no one had the right to resist or reject her.

I think this is a slightly different thing. Buffy never chose to be a Slayer. She was forced into it. She had no say in where she went or who was the boss of her. I personally think that--especially in S1--her constant whining about having a personal life was selfish and annoying. But guess what? She was a teenager. They (as a group, not any individuals on this board, of course) tend to be selfish and annoying. When the Council became oppressive, she quit. When they agreed to take her opinions and tactics into account and quit being so domineering, she rejoined them, this time on a more level playing field. The Potentials HAD a choice; they chose to join Buffy for their protection and to help her fight. They followed her willingly until they decided they didn't like that people die in war, and then they quit for completely selfish reasons.

I also find it interesting that Giles was the one person who had received the least criticism from the fans. He was the one who had insisted that Buffy lead the Potentials. He was the one who had taught her to be a killer, instead of a leader. And when she failed to become an effective leader - no surprise there - he was the one who constantly complained about her ineffectiveness. And then to make matters worse, he betrayed her by trying to get Spike killed behind her back . . . and never expressed any remorse for his actions. Naturally this pissed off Buffy. But when she finally rejected his role as her authority figure, he became resentful and even more critical . . . and stabbed her in the back, again. And yet, the fans ended up expressing hostility toward characters like the Potentials (especially Kennedy and Rona), Robin Wood, Dawn and the Scoobies. I guess as a long established authority figure, Giles was exempt from their hostility. Well, from the hostility of most fans. There are those who keep claiming that Giles had changed during Season 7. And there were those who condemned him as much as they condemned the others. By the way, I don't think that Giles had changed. I think that Buffy's view of him had.

If there is one thing I will condemn all of them - Dawn, the Potentials, the Scoobies, Wood and Giles - for is tossing Buffy out of her house. It was her house. If they did not want to follow her, they should have left. But Buffy is also to blame for allowing them to kick her out of her own home.

I blame Giles almost more than anyone else. That one line of his completely destroyed everything. You're right; he had set her up as the boss of them, and that, unfortunately, made her leadership hinge on his word. And he revoked it because he didn't like who she'd grown up to be and that she insisted that Spike was necessary to the cause. He used his influence to take revenge on her for having her own opinions and following them. I think that's despicable. And hypocritical; he'd left so that she'd grow into her own person, and then didn't like the person she'd become, expecting to have the same amount of influence over her even though he had abandoned her. He expects to have it both ways, and he can't.

And kicking her out of her own house was just the ultimate insult. Especially from Dawn. "It's my house, too" . . . no, it's not. She didn't help pay the bills. NONE of them did. The house belonged to Buffy more than it belonged to anyone else. I'd like to say that I wouldn't have left, but things could have gotten very awkward if Buffy had insisted that THEY all leave--though she had every right to do so.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I'm sorry but I don't buy your arguments. I don't see any justification for condemning the Potentials for rejecting Buffy's authority. They had every right to do so, in my opinion. I don't care if Buffy never wanted to be the Slayer. Some of the Potentials didn't want to be future Slayers - including Rona. I certainly do not believe there is a final voice of authority in their situation. The Potentials were nothing like military soldiers and sailors. They did not sign some contract in which they gave up their free will over to Buffy. When Buffy led the Scoobies in the past, they did not blindly follow her lead. They gave advice and suggestions about what to do during an apocalypse . . . and Buffy heeded what they had to say. Well, sometimes. Buffy could have respected the Potentials the same right, but she didn't. Because she had erroneously believed that they had to follow her lead without any question. There is nothing legally binding about the Potentials following Buffy. If they wanted to follow her . . . fine. If they don't, they had every right to reject her authority.

I personally think that--especially in S1--her constant whining about having a personal life was selfish and annoying. But guess what? She was a teenager. They (as a group, not any individuals on this board, of course) tend to be selfish and annoying. When the Council became oppressive, she quit.

I saw nothing wrong with Buffy wanting a personal life. Frankly, she should have followed her desires. Instead, she allowed guilt, fear of being different and some mistaken belief that she had no choices to drive her into the lifestyle of a Slayer. If Buffy had blindly followed the Council's dictates that she be the Slayer in the past, she only has herself to blame.

Were the Potentials being selfish in rejecting Buffy? Probably. Probably not. So what? They had every right to do so. Buffy kept giving them speeches on how she can protect them and help them learn to fight against evil. And when she failed to deliver by "Dirty Girls", they rejected her. You may not have liked it, but they had every right to do so. They were not legally bound to Buffy. Nor were they anything like military soldiers.


Sometimes I think that adhering to authority figures seems more important to people than exercising one's own free will - at least free will that does not lead to a deliberate attempt to harm another.

 

[Blondie Bear]

In my opinion, that rejection of her authority should have led to them LEAVING, not KICKING HER OUT. That's the big issue I have. You don't like the way I'm leading? Fine. Leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. But outright mutiny was NOT the answer. Even Faith said so.

 

[LadyLavinia]

In my opinion, that rejection of her authority should have led to them LEAVING, not KICKING HER OUT. That's the big issue I have. You don't like the way I'm leading? Fine. Leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. But outright mutiny was NOT the answer. Even Faith said so.

That was Buffy's fault, not the others. They were wrong to kick her out of the house, I agree. But she was the one who let them kick her out. She was the one who should have told them to get out.

 

[GATEGOD]

That was Buffy's fault, not the others. They were wrong to kick her out of the house, I agree. But she was the one who let them kick her out. She was the one who should have told them to get out.

Yea, but where else were they supposed to go? Her house was the only place where they had the equipment, and weapons, and places where they trained/slept/ Everything. Buffy probably took that into consideration. They didn't want her to lead them. None of them... Why would she stay and fight then if someone else wanted to lead and put the girls in danger. She wanted to lead, if she couldn't then she wasn't going to follow. It was a weight off her back, not being responsible for their lives anymore. It left her broken their betrayal! But the ever great Spike came in and saved the day in one of my favorite scenes in season 7 when he comforted and stayed with her.

:cheering:

 

[white avenger]

Yea, but where else were they supposed to go? Her house was the only place where they had the equipment, and weapons, and places where they trained/slept/ Everything. Buffy probably took that into consideration. They didn't want her to lead them. None of them... Why would she stay and fight then if someone else wanted to lead and put the girls in danger. She wanted to lead, if she couldn't then she wasn't going to follow. It was a weight off her back, not being responsible for their lives anymore. It left her broken their betrayal! But the ever great Spike came in and saved the day in one of my favorite scenes in season 7 when he comforted and stayed with her.

:cheering:

The point is, however, it was HER house, HER equipment, HER weapons, and HER leadership. It should've been a package deal: take my swords, play by my rules (sort of like the kid that owns the football gets to be the quarterback, or he takes his ball home). There were plenty of abandoned houses in Sunnydale by that time, so housing wouldn't be a problem, and a raid on any local sporting goods store, hardware store, or Army Navy Surplus store would have yielded more axes, knives, bows, arrows, and hatchets than they could possibly need. A machete with a point ground onto it makes a passable substitute for a sword, and baseball bats make great clubs. Housing and weaponry should never have been an issue, only an excuse.

If Giles, Wood, and whoever else wanted new leadership, whether it be Faith, Giles, or Andrew, THEY should have been the ones to leave, not Buffy. The only really good thing about the whole fiasco was when Spike came back and tore into the whole bunch of them for their betrayal. Whether you like the guy or not, whether you favor him with Buffy or not, that was Spike's finest hour to date, surpassed only by his speech to Buffy in the next episode.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Yea, but where else were they supposed to go? Her house was the only place where they had the equipment, and weapons, and places where they trained/slept/ Everything. Buffy probably took that into consideration.

Surely you're not justifying Buffy being kicked out of her own house? Her own property?

 

[GATEGOD]

If Giles, Wood, and whoever else wanted new leadership, whether it be Faith, Giles, or Andrew, THEY should have been the ones to leave,

Surely you're not justifying Buffy being kicked out of her own house? Her own property?

Nope I think everyone who betrayed her should have been smacked in the face and laughed at. But she left because they didn't want her. This wasn't just her home anymore. You have to get that to understand why I believe after what they said and did that was all she could do. If she told them to leave.. they might have, but they had set up shop and were trying to fight a war that could consume all of there lives. This was HQ. They couldn't just up and leave.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Nope I think everyone who betrayed her should have been smacked in the face and laughed at.

Why? Because she's Buffy? Why should she be immune? She screwed up. The Potentials, the Scoobies and the others had every right to reject her leadership. There was no law that they had to blindly follow her. Granted, they had no right to kick her out of the house. But then, Buffy should not have allowed them to do so.

But as far as I'm concerned, they had every right to reject her. Betrayed? Oh please! What is this idiotic idea that Buffy can turn her back on someone if he or she had failed her, but anyone else cannot do the same to her? Talk about hypocricy!