Faith - A Victim or Victimizer?

[eponinethen]

Well, I blame Faith for what she did, sorta, but I still think she was a victim. Of 'course I blame Hitler (and many others) for the holocaust, and I can't even start trying to say how wrong that was, but I'm just saying there are often things behind.. which doesn't make it okay, but more or less explains..

Yeah I agree. You can blame Faith and at the same time believe she was a victim.

Well, I sorta believe you are born "good" (which sounds all wrong since I don't even believe in good/evil, but I can't explain it better than that), but that the way you grow up or the circumstances around you can truly screw you up, and that's not really your fault either. Although you are always more or less responsible for your own actions.

 

[Allycat]

Well, I have known and still know quite some troubled (I prefer that term over "screwed up) people and I found that most of them in the end, deep down, know what is right and wrong even though they're behaviour isn't like it.

I agree with you though, Faith is a victim too... my conclusion:


Faith - a Victim and a Victimizer!

 

[Jill_Valentine]

I can understand the excuses Hitler used, but not the reasons. Given the same circumstances, I flatter myself to believe I could not oversee the systematic extermination of a race or two.

However, given Faith's circumstances, and how gradually she descended down that spiral-o'-evil, I cannot say the same. Except for the accent, and ability to wear red PVC in public, I'm there, stabbing away like it's going out of style.

 

[Allycat]

eponinethen agrees: Yeah, but even if they know, it can be too hard to do that "right" thing..

True, that does not, however, mean one must not try. Furthermore, I sincerely believe that it lies within anyone's power to actually do the "right" thing, however hard it may be!

I can understand the excuses Hitler used, but not the reasons. Given the same circumstances, I flatter myself to believe I could not oversee the systematic extermination of a race or two.

I do believe myself to understand the reasoning behind Hitler's Final Solution, but that does not mean that I would it; I'm glad to hear you wouldn't either.

However, given Faith's circumstances, and how gradually she descended down that spiral-o'-evil, I cannot say the same. Except for the accent, and ability to wear red PVC in public, I'm there, stabbing away like it's going out of style.

I can only say I pitty you then. I'm sure the characters of Wesley, Buffy, and Angel would be very pleased to hear this. (No offence!)

 

[Jill_Valentine]

I can only say I pitty you then. I'm sure the characters of Wesley, Buffy, and Angel would be very pleased to hear this. (No offence!)

Soon after Faith starts working for the Mayor, he orders Willow killed.

Faith has more reasons to dislike Willow than any other Scooby, but she's still uneasy with the idea of being involved in killing her. The Mayor distracts her with a Playstation. My current going rate for a murder is a Gameboy DS, but the principle's the same.

Seriously though, given Faith's circumstances, I can nearly guarantee I would have made even worse choices, and I never would have come back either. She's brought into this established gang of heroes, and her only peer is a girl who's changed the entire world through the power of sass alone. Little wonder that her already established inferiority complex goes nuclear. And stripped of the emotional support of my family and friends, something I depend on, that much power would corrupt me up nicely.

 

[Allycat]

You make it sounds as if it is an inevitability. As if ANY human being put into her position would follow this same pattern. My question to you: Do you think any human being put into Faith's position would follow the same pattern as her? or at least follow similar down-ward spirals?

 

[Jules]

No... I mean if Buffy and Faith had their personalities switched, not their background or anything!

And I agree that she wouldn't have gone down the bad path, if she hand't stabbed Finch. However, isn't this what life is all about? What determines our characters? How we deal with the accidental things.. the things we don't control?

You would have to prove that a persons personality has nothing to do with their upbringing and people they were friends with. Buffy had her personality, in my opinion because she had a good upbringing. Her personality and sence of righteousness came from her family and friends. Its depatable but there you go *shrugs*

 

[Allycat]

It's certainly debatable, lol. I guess, this way too, it comes down to a matter of Nature vs. Nurture, again. I think we have to conclude that this is pretty much a Never-Ending Debate.

 

[Jules]

Yeah, its one of those debates were both views can be right...lol...

 

[pyromaniac]

I agree that her actions where her own fault and she should be blamed for them. But psychologicaly, a sickness like that takes over you, in every aspect and probably affected alot of her desicions.

doesn't mean you can't blame her! Are you saying that I shouldn't blame Hitler for the Hollocaust?

:laughing: Exactly.

 

[Wicked]

Faith was (although not well behaved) still good before she killed Allen Finch.
And yes she did choose to join up with the Mayor. But under different circumstances she could have stayed good.

The murder was an accident but with all the pressure from Buffy and the others she reverted to an every man for him(Or her)self attitude.

Faith clearly grew up on her own with no real family and clearly has a real problem with trust (not without good reason). Therefore she decided she couldnt turn herself in. So to avoid this she lied to Giles.

She did appear to be genuinely upset for her mistake but Faith isnt one to let anyone in so she put on a show. By that time she'd gone so far, she didnt believe she could go back.

And then the Mayor became a father for her so she would do anything to keep that relationship. Even though she clearly wasnt happy about everything she had to do (Doppelgangland: MAYOR lets kill you little friend then Faith looked a bit worried).

But In Angel, with the lack of a father figure and the help of Angel, she was able to face up to her mistakes and be rehabilitated.

Even though technically she chose her own path, under better circumstances, I think she would have stayed good.

So I believe she was a victim of bad circumstances.

 

[PrincessZombie]

Definitely a victim, but she did need to face the consequences of her actions. She had a tough girl facade to protect her from the reality of life. Faith just wanted to trust someone, I think. But when she trusted that evil watcher lady, she stabbed her in the back. I think that was the last straw for Faith. Then she found love and attention in a way from the Mayor.

 

[Winifred]

Definitely a victim, but she did need to face the consequences of her actions. She had a tough girl facade to protect her from the reality of life. Faith just wanted to trust someone, I think. But when she trusted that evil watcher lady, she stabbed her in the back. I think that was the last straw for Faith. Then she found love and attention in a way from the Mayor.

Totally agree...you pretty much summed up my answer! 🙂

 

[Faithy]

I'd say, mostly she's a victim. Not only was she a victim of her life's circumstances, she was in a way, a victim of the slayer calling. The downward spiral that lead to her bad, and harmful decisions, begun with accidents (killing the deputy mayor) and misunderstandings. If anyone had showed her some kindness, or had faith in her, during that time she was on the edge, she could have avoided the plunge. Not to mention, she'd have never been in that situation in the first place if she wasn't the slayer, or if she had been the only slayer.. She did make some bad decisions, and yes she should be held responsible for them, but the worst were made because, she was lost, and hated herself, and she found guidance in the form of the Mayor, and he basically used her, and her situation. After being betrayed, and abandoned by the scoobs, she felt she was already to far gone, and just gave in to the dark side. She did damage only to provoke Buffy and others to hurt her. So even when she was bad, she wanted to be good, and since she didn't think she could be, she wanted Buffy, and later Angel to kill her. So IMHO she was a victim, but even still, she took responsibility for her actions, and she redeemed herself in the end..

 

[Chasing Cordy]

She is clearly the one responsible for what happened.
She has troubles and an unstable life up to a certain point, but the critical part is when she killed the mortal.
If she would have just accepted it, she could have moved on...but she didn't.
She acted like it never happened and even tried to dump it on Buffy.
That's her mistake--and it had nothing to do with with if her mom gave her a dog at the age of five.

 

[eponinethen]

She has troubles and an unstable life up to a certain point, but the critical part is when she killed the mortal.
If she would have just accepted it, she could have moved on...but she didn't.

Because that is probably such an easy thing to do?

Of course it was wrong of her to act the way she did, but, she was in an extremely complicated situation, being the person she was didn't allow her to just admit her mistake etc..

 

[Winifred]

Adding to what eponinethen said, everyone deals with things in their own ways, and just because Faith chose to ignore, or push aside what she had done, doesn't mean she wasn't dealing with it - she was, in her own way. I'd say she was very much a victim, because she was mis-guided and didn't have anyone there to show her a way, or be her support system...plus, like already mentioned above, the person she was didn't allow for her to easily admit what she had done.

 

[sizzle-sozzle]

i think Faith was in control of every action that she did and does deserve some of the consequences,but on the other hand she was given a crappy life,no family,friends and no one to look out for her, she had to make it on her own and that will mess with anybody's head.yes she did kill some one and at first she did care but then she realised that she could get away with it because she had no one to stop her.she made a bad choice when she decided to work for the mayor and she deserves the consequences for that and for killing some one.she did try to escape from the police and not go to prison but when she did the body switch with Buffy she realised what she had done and who she had turned into.in season 7 she escaped from prison to help stop the apocalyse and do good to try and make up for all the wrongs that she did,by the end of season 7 you could tell that Faith was turning into a decent person.so i think that she deserves some of the consequences but not all of them as she was not given a good start to life and had to work it out on her own.

 

[arabella]

I was frustrated that this poll did not allow an option of both. Under the diathesis stress model, all humans are simultaneously a product of their own personality (completly genetic), and other genetic predispositions, AND of their environment and life circumstances. Faith both chose and was molded into the person that she became. It is naive to separate the two. All people in her position would not have behaved the same way, but it is likely that many would. This is a frustrating notion for those of us stuck in the concrete moral reasoning stage, but is true none the less. So should she be punished for her actions, yes, but more importantly she should be allowed to work through the events that brought her to them (which i think she does, and that is how we get the faith that we were left with at the end of Buffy). That is why the traditional notion of imprisionment (for those individuals who will be released back into the general population) is ineffective. There is not enough focus on helping people work through and change the circumstances that helped to lead them to where they are. I am all for choice theory and the natural consequences of behavior though. You touch the fire, you get burned--you kill a man, you go to jail. But there must be some intervention to address the societal and environmental influences that have effected the behavior. SO, rant over now. My answer, though it wasn't an option is inseperably BOTH.

 

[Chasing Cordy]

Faith (and real people) are always responsible for their actions at that second.
It's wrong to keep blaming things on her past--especially those things that she had no control over.

Check the the example I gave above.
How can Faith honestly say that it's her mom's fault that the deputy mayor was stabbed?
Every day you wake up is another opprotunity to change your life, but for Faith she just seemed to accept that it's her history that makes her who she was.
What you do in the present will become your history. So when faith stabbed the mortal, she could have done something to accept it but she didn't. She did the old "Oh, my life was a wreck and that's why I'll dump this on B. That's all I know how to do"

She had a chance to change and she didn't.

BUT...
On the flip side, she is what a slayer is supposed to be. According to Dracula, a slayer is a killer. So in that light, it should be Buffy that has the troubled past since she is the one not embracing her calling--rather embracing her lovers.
Faith's quick escapes with Xander, Spike, the principal, and who knows how many others are just part of life.
For Buffy...lovers were her life, and the slayer was just a side gig.