Faith - A Victim or Victimizer?

Which was Faith?

  • A Victim of Poor Circumstances

    Votes: 29 59.2%
  • Completely to Blame for her Actions

    Votes: 11 22.4%
  • Not Sure

    Votes: 9 18.4%

  • Total voters
    49
That's all I have to say on the subject.

Ok, sometimes I lie.

Faith makes herself a victim, to justify her actions.

Blaming her childhood, her accidental murder of the Mayors deputy, blaming these to justify her actions, is a deliberate decision on her part.

It's the easy way out.

When she tells Angel in "5x5" that she is evil, she stops blaming other people, she stops taking the easy way out.
 
K
Kimm
Finally someone who sees my point!!
I find no fault with that, you must admit that therte is a problem and shoulder the blame to heal, however part of realizing that she is not evil but that her actions were will be finding a way to both understand how her behaviour came to be and not lose sight that she is still ultimately responsible for this behaviour.
 
Ok, sometimes I lie.

Faith makes herself a victim, to justify her actions.

Blaming her childhood, her accidental murder of the Mayors deputy, blaming these to justify her actions, is a deliberate decision on her part.

It's the easy way out.

When she tells Angel in "5x5" that she is evil, she stops blaming other people, she stops taking the easy way out.
Well, that's your opinion. I don't think it's a "deliberate decision", I don't think she really blames anyone (maybe with the exeption for Buffy and the Scoobies at some occations), but she also doesn't admit to having done anything really wrong. She blames the circumstances, sure she does (and so do I, when it comes to her, but in a different way), but most of the time she just pretends to like what she's doing.. Or actually, I don't think she pretends and much as tries to to like, believes she likes..

I agree about the Angel/Faith scene though, of course, she finally admits what she has done, and admits that she realizes just how bad it is... Which is why I love this scene, and Faith in this scene.. aw.. lol..

And again and again and again, this is not about excusing Faith's behaviour, it's not about justifying anything, only about explaining how and why she acted the way she did, and why and how you can still love her despite (or sort of because of) what she did.
 
I just want to clarify that while I don't think there's any excuse or justification for Faith's behavior that doesn't mean I don't like her as a character.

In fact, I really really enjoy Faith as a character (and that scene with her and Angel in the ally did bring tears to my eyes).

I'm just saying that past traumas and experiences should not be an excuse to act the way she did. She should be held completely accountable for ALL of her actions....she is responsible for her actions and nobody else.

In the end she admitted she was wrong and faced her demons and accepted her punishment like a big girl and in my mind she atoned for her sins.
 
I find no fault with that, you must admit that therte is a problem and shoulder the blame to heal, however part of realizing that she is not evil but that her actions were will be finding a way to both understand how her behaviour came to be and not lose sight that she is still ultimately responsible for this behaviour.


I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it.

Why does there have to be a reason Faith is the way she is?

Someone can have a perfect upbringing, and still be a psychopathic Bunny worshipper.::evil1::
 
Yes and in that case I would examine other possible contributors-what about that individual and her surroundings contributed? Why must there be an explaination, Fiver? Simply because human behaviour does not form or exist in a vacuum. It is functional in some way shape or form to meet the needs of that individual, howeveer misdirected and inexcusable those actions may be. Mind you brain chemistry is also a possible contributing factor, especially in psychosis, which may then explain your example.
 
So, if someone doesn't fit your moral requirements.. Its because. A) Their experiences as a child. B) a chemical imbalance.

Faith knows the difference between right and wrong.
She didn't use chemicals to correct her imbalance.

By killing, torturing, breaking a moral code, what "needs" is she trying to fufill?

Isn't she just having fun?
 
is that what i said? you are over-simplifying it. No, it is possible that the behaviour is reinforcing to her because it is fun. she continues to break "moral" code because it is getting her what she wants, and she has learned that this behaviour is more effective at getting her what she wants than other behaviours (that would be environmental influence and learning). I mean why go through the trouble of getting a job, earning money and buying the stuff you want, when you can just go take it for free. Her behaviour is not irrational. She isn't crazy. (the chemical thing was in reference to psychotic disorders, such as schizophrenia and Bi-polar that are really more about a chemical imbalance than anything else, although, mind you they still have influence from both the individual's unique personality and environmental stressors) And I don't care if Faith's behaviour is right or wrong. I am simply explaining it. I think what she did was anti-social (versus pro-social or helping behaviour, not to be confused with the disorder of anti-social personality). Faith came to lack empathy and became a fan of the anti-social behaviour because the pro-social behaviour didn't get her the acceptance that she needed. She was never really part of the scoobies. Her anti-social behaviour got her a daddy figure and some new toys. Her behaviour is totally explainable with in her social context.
 
lol, i never said faith was either a victim or victimized. what i actually said was that to make such a distinction was stupid and reflective of lower order concrete thinking. Hitler was responsible for his actions, I understand why everything went down the way it did, but he like Faith is still responsible.
 
lol, i never said faith was either a victim or victimized.
lets just take a moment and notice that i am retarded...how about:

victim or a victimizer...cause they way i wrote it doesn't make any sense.: rotate :

and haha, yeah Chasing Cordy, apparently there is some Faith love going on...we seem to like talkin about her!
 
i think Faith knew what she was doing and so she should have some of the blame and does deserve some of the consequences,but on the other hand she had a crappy life,no family,no friends,if she was to of had the type of life that Buffy was given then she would of turned out differently.ok yea she did kill someone and at first she did care but then she realised she could get away with it because she didnt have anyone who cared enough to do anything about it.first of all she tried to escape going to prison but after the body swith with Buffy she realised that she was doing things wrong and she didnt like the person who shed turned into.

when she returned in season 7 you could tell that she had changed and wanted to make up for all the bad things she had done,i mean after all she did return to Sunnydale to fight the biggest evil of all and that meant facing Buffy and everyone.so although he does deserve some of the consequences she doesnt deserve all of them as she was thrown into bad circumstances that led her down that road.
 
Faith was never evil IMO. I think the stuff that happened to her just pushed her to the dark side, and I think that had she been explored more she would have eventually been redeemed.
 
I think Faith was both a victim and to blame for her actions, in the beggining she acted the way she did because she was fighting back at the adults who let her down, but at the end of the day, she chose to desend into bad behaviour, it was a reflection of what she felt inside, and wasn't capable of handling the killing of the dep mayor, because she was unbalenced.
Hence her actions, she knew right from wrong it is just that she believed herself bad, so acted that way.
 
Hard thing to decide on. Watching season three, I couldn't really understand the things she did. I mean, she had a choice, she had Buffy as a friend but she just didn't need it (as Willow told her so). I can't understand why. Well, okay, she had poor circustances - BUT she got LOVE from the Scoobygang, and I just can't see why it was not enough for her, why she had to spoil everything.
Then in season 4, I felt pity for her. When Buffy tells Riley that Faith is dangerous because she's evil and hurt her and everyone she liked I just couldn't find it quite well - grounded. Well, okay, Faith IS a bad girl. But she needed someone to cling to. Maybe she didn't make the right choice chosing Mayor Wilkins over the Scoobies, but that does not mean she's evil. She's just so desperate, she's just so human. The problem is that she's confused and can't take responsibility for her actions which is a real problem in a Slayer's case. But that does not mean one should eliminate her or give her to the authorities ot the Council. I love Buffy, but at that point, I just couldn't agree with her. Faith needs help, that's obvious. But still, a human being has free well and therefore ha to take responsibility for what she/he does. Life is a road of choices. And may you be too weak to chose the hard but right way over the easy road leading to 'hell', still it is your choice and you have to live with. Could Faith be too weak to decide on taking the right way of life as a result of her poor background and circumstances, still she HAD THE CHOICE to change it a bit. A harder road, but a better road which she didn't like.
 
I say Faith's responsible. That doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for what must have been a poor upbringing or for the fact that she was in Buffy's shadow. Killing Finch was an accident. If she had gone to Giles and explained (with the truth, not a lie) and allowed the Watcher's council or Xander or Buffy or really anyone to help, I think things could have gone a lot differently. I don't hold her responsible for that accident. I don't think punishment is necessary in the case of accidental death, either. Not every death is a crime. Accidentally killing one person while going about your nightly business of saving the world, well, that's not a crime. That's unfortunate, but it shouldn't be a crime.

The crimes came later: trying to kill Xander for helping, the cold-blooded kills, identity theft in the truest form, and torturing Wes. Torturing Wes was brutal. It was Angelus brutal. It was evil. I like Faith. I sort of understand what she was going through when she took these actions. That doesn't mean that she shouldn't be held responsible. Faith chose those actions. Faith chose to let herself spin out of control rather than to accept the help of those who offered. I think she deserved to go to prison.
 
Obviously Faith is responsible in the way that she was the one to commit all those acts, but I do think it was a result of her past and her upbringing.
I mean the girl undoubtedly had psychological problems. I mean the basics we know are an absentee Father and a drunken mother who slept around with the worst low-life-scum she could find. And this all when Faith was a lot younger than we saw her. Imagine having all that at age of fifteen? Fourteen? The thought is to horrible to contemplate and it's obvious that she'd be effected by that. And then if you take 'Go Ask Malice' to be canon we also know that Faith found her Mother, currently in the prostitution profession, dead in the back of some random sleazeball's car. If that doesn't create some psychotic issues I struggle to think what would.
Then of course we have the only stable adult figure she could trust- her Watcher. Then she was killed and ripped apart before Faith's eyes by Kakistos. So all that was ripped away from her also.
When she went to Sunnydale, she wished to escape from all that, absorb herself in the life Buffy had created and I think she honestly planned to be a helpful and complete part of it. Her actually turning up at Buffy's house in Amends showed how much she wanted to be part of it, that entire family unit that was the Scoobies. And everything was going well (as well as it can in Sunnydale) but the accidental murder of Finch I think in way sent Faith back a million steps. Everything about the new fresh start she had created fell apart and she went, in effect, into complete meltdown.
Her lying to Giles, saying it was Buffy that killed him, not only reflected her once again unstable mental state, but also her own fears of what people think about her. After being raised around people who thought she was useless and no good, her teachers included, she was afraid that Giles secretly thought the same thing of her and confessing about Finch's death (no matter how accidental it was) would cause him (who we see many times she definitely liked. She defends him to Post, remember?) to reject her as all the adults have before and she couldn't bear that rejection. She saw how they all were Buffy and thought that no matter what they would always forgive *her*, hence why she said Buffy was the one who did it. I'm not saying it was the right thing to do, far from it, but you can understand why.
Her actions of that were all just an extension of all that. She had a psychosis already and The Mayor just seemed to feed that, nurture it in a way until it became out of control. But through it all Faith still desperately wanted that life Buffy had- the life she wished she had as a child. I mean didn't Faith say something like 'You get the Mom, the Watcher, the little scooby gang'? That was always what was behind her actions. Wanting that and believing on some deep scarred level that she could never have it no matter what. That she didn't deserve it. And so she went the opposite way completely, covering up her desires, her fears by saying 'well I didn't want that anyway. I want to be the bad girl' when really she didn't.
I mean in TYG where she kidnaps Joyce, watch that scene in the bedroom. That isn't a raving psychotic- Okay, it is *is* but there's more to it. Playing with Joyce's make-up, bouncing onto the bed beside her excitedly with the mail? That's all the language of a kid playing with their Mom. This is a girl who just wants that stable life Buffy had. And when she rants on about Buffy being too busy with her own life to take care of 'dear old Mom' she's basically saying 'Buffy has this great life, a great Mom and she doesn't even care about you. If I had you as Mom, I wouldn't forget you. I'd see you'.

So, I do believe Faith should be held responsible for her actions- which you have to admit she does in Sanctuary etc in Angel when she breaks down and then willingly goes into prison- but it was some deep-rooted pain going on there. She kept saying it was for the ride, but there was so much more to it. A deep psychosis from her entire crappy life before Sunnydale and a desperate almost obsessive need to fit into the same kind of life Buffy had, but a deep-rooted fear perhaps formed by everyone's low opinion of her in her earlier life telling her that she would never deserve that life and so could never have it.
 
I've always felt for 80% of the time she was a Victim of Poor Circumstances and the other 20% she was sadly responsible for.
 
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