Gay subtext in media: why?

[Puppet]

I get that it's important to make headway for the LGBT community in all aspects of the world, including popular media. But in attempting to do so, are we sometimes taking things a bit too far?

Why are so many fans of so many shows determined to read gay subtext into every same-sex friendship on some of their favorite TV shows? I've been seeing it countless places recently and I'm honestly just very confused.

Is it because of a lack of a real relationship between one or both of these characters? Is it because of the movement that the LGBT have mostly successfully done in recent years? Or is it as simple as men and women being 'turned on' by homoerotic relationships, despite their own sexuality?

Examples such as Dean/Castiel from Supernatural and Jessica/Trish from Jessica Jones come to mind, but they are just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

And so I throw this question to a forum of intelligent people with very varied ideas and beliefs: why?

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Can I be one of those annoying people who asks, 'Doesn't people read a heterosexual subtext into every platonic male-female relationship?' If you're watching a movie and there is a boy and the girl, you know they are going to bang at the end. If they don't, you pretend they did ... or at least wanted to.

To answer your actual question: All of the above!

 

[Puppet]

Can I be one of those annoying people who asks, 'Doesn't people read a heterosexual subtext into every platonic male-female relationship?' If you're watching a movie and there is a boy and the girl, you know they are going to bang at the end. If they don't, you pretend they did ... or at least wanted to.

To answer your actual question: All of the above!

Five years or so ago I may have agreed with you (perish the thought) but media has gotten really good at creating believable male-female friendships that very few people these days, as far as I know, automatically expect the two of them to hook up. Imo, that makes your theory fall apart, just a bit.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Good question! God knows, one of things that grosses me out the MOST is that Dean/Cas subtext. (It's annoying af)

It's one thing to accept alternative lifestyles; it's quite another to go overboard, forcing it into a story.

 

[Puppet]

Good question! God knows, one of things that grosses me out the MOST is that Dean/Cas subtext. (It's annoying af)

It's one thing to accept alternative lifestyles; it's quite another to go overboard, forcing it into a story.

I wouldn't say I'm grossed out, per se (that would be Wincest, ugh) but I do find it annoying that so many fans insists that it's really there. Hey, I enjoy the occasional Destiel fanfic but I'd never want it in my canon show.

I also feel like placing romance onto Dean and Castiel's relationship almost ruins their 'profound bond' in a way. Isn't it a much more special, unique bond if it isn't romantic?

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Actually, it IS the slash fiction featuring Sam/Dean that grosses me out. I'd just lit up a cigarette, and was too lazy to edit. 😛

The Dean/Cas thing is (I think) something the writers hint at occasionally, because of those fans.

 

[Puppet]

Actually, it IS the slash fiction featuring Sam/Dean that grosses me out. I'd just lit up a cigarette, and was too lazy to edit. 😛

The Dean/Cas thing is (I think) something the writers hint at occasionally, because of those fans.

See, I don't see that. This whole 'gay-baiting' is ludicrous if you ask me. The writers have always written Dean and Cass interactions like that, even before fans began to ship them (not counting the few that began to ship them after Lazarus Rising, lol). I don't see there being anything in the writing that shows that they are putting something in the subtext just for the sake of the fans.

Part of why I love Dean's little fourth wall break in Fan Fiction.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

See, I don't see that. This whole 'gay-baiting' is ludicrous if you ask me. The writers have always written Dean and Cass interactions like that, even before fans began to ship them (not counting the few that began to ship them after Lazarus Rising, lol). I don't see there being anything in the writing that shows that they are putting something in the subtext just for the sake of the fans.

Part of why I love Dean's little fourth wall break in Fan Fiction.

"Cas, get out of my ass!" I'd say that's a prime example of 'questionable' subtext. lol

 

[Puppet]

"Cas, get out of my ass!" I'd say that's a prime example of 'questionable' subtext. lol

You could say the same for Dean telling Cass "Blow me." Truth is, if these words were spoken to anyone else, which Dean would absolutely do, then it wouldn't have been such a big deal. Oh well.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

You could say the same for Dean telling Cass "Blow me." Truth is, if these words were spoken to anyone else, which Dean would absolutely do, then it wouldn't have been such a big deal. Oh well.

Dean said it in an annoyed way, not like an invitation or anything. Still, it was pretty funny. 😀

God, I need bacon!!!

 

[Blaze]

I don't want to come off as a jerk here, but why do you care? People get so mad as soon as someone sees gay subtext with two characters. Why does it matter? Usually the answer to that is homophobia. If people weren't homophobic, than it wouldn't matter whether gay subtext was there or not. People have always, and always will, ship characters together. Straight, gay, and everything in between. If you have two characters on TV, you bet your ass someone ships them. Why shit on people for shipping two characters together (within reason of course, I don't support ships between adults and minors, or incest).

One thing that isn't cool is fetishizing gay couples, which maybe is what you're referring to with Supernatural, as it seems many fans are actually just straight girls that have a gay fetish. That I get, I'm not really okay with that either because it completely reduces the identity of gay people, like we're just there for the pleasure of others, but then those girls who have a fetish for gay men are the same people that are "grossed out" by lesbians. Not saying that's the case for everyone, but I've seen that before so I get that aspect of it.

But as a general rule, who cares if people see subtext that you don't see. Everyone has a different interpretation of things. And I think it's pretty crappy to look down on people who enjoys a ship, even if it's not cannon. That's like saying to the gay community "look, I don't have anything against you guys, as long as my favourite character isn't gay though".

I'd like to also point out too, that subtext is sometimes there on purpose and it can actually lead to something. There was an uproar by a large part of the Legend of Korra fanbase (the people who shipped Mako and Korra) when at the end of the series, Korra and Asami got together. Of course the other half of the fanbase wasn't surprised at all, because we had been saying the subtext was there all along. But even if they had never gotten together, what is so wrong about shipping the two together, especially when the ship is helping out some people, since our representation is already spread so thin.

Five years or so ago I may have agreed with you (perish the thought) but media has gotten really good at creating believable male-female friendships that very few people these days, as far as I know, automatically expect the two of them to hook up. Imo, that makes your theory fall apart, just a bit.

I disagree with this. Maybe on TV there's some great friendship, but if the two characters are main characters, someone, somewhere, is going to ship them. Not only that, but many times, those characters do end up together at the end of the day. The truth is, in many of those subtext ship, if one of the character was of the opposite gender, the two characters would actually get together at some point. There's also the aspect of queerbaiting, when a show puts the subtext there on purpose to get the LGBT community to watch the show, but in reality the two characters will never get together.

The queer community gets treated like dirt far too often in media (queerbaiting, bury your gays trope), the last thing we need is people now saying we can't even ship two fictional characters together.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

I don't want to come off as a jerk here, but why do you care? People get so mad as soon as someone sees gay subtext with two characters. Why does it matter? Usually the answer to that is homophobia. If people weren't homophobic, than it wouldn't matter whether gay subtext was there or not. People have always, and always will, ship characters together. Straight, gay, and everything in between. If you have two characters on TV, you bet your ass someone ships them. Why shit on people for shipping two characters together (within reason of course, I don't support ships between adults and minors, or incest).

One thing that isn't cool is fetishizing gay couples, which maybe is what you're referring to with Supernatural, as it seems many fans are actually just straight girls that have a gay fetish. That I get, I'm not really okay with that either because it completely reduces the identity of gay people, like we're just there for the pleasure of others, but then those girls who have a fetish for gay men are the same people that are "grossed out" by lesbians. Not saying that's the case for everyone, but I've seen that before so I get that aspect of it.

But as a general rule, who cares if people see subtext that you don't see. Everyone has a different interpretation of things. And I think it's pretty crappy to look down on people who enjoys a ship, even if it's not cannon. That's like saying to the gay community "look, I don't have anything against you guys, as long as my favourite character isn't gay though".

I'd like to also point out too, that subtext is sometimes there on purpose and it can actually lead to something. There was an uproar by a large part of the Legend of Korra fanbase (the people who shipped Mako and Korra) when at the end of the series, Korra and Asami got together. Of course the other half of the fanbase wasn't surprised at all, because we had been saying the subtext was there all along. But even if they had never gotten together, what is so wrong about shipping the two together, especially when the ship is helping out some people, since our representation is already spread so thin.



I disagree with this. Maybe on TV there's some great friendship, but if the two characters are main characters, someone, somewhere, is going to ship them. Not only that, but many times, those characters do end up together at the end of the day. The truth is, in many of those subtext ship, if one of the character was of the opposite gender, the two characters would actually get together at some point. There's also the aspect of queerbaiting, when a show puts the subtext there on purpose to get the LGBT community to watch the show, but in reality the two characters will never get together.

The queer community gets treated like dirt far too often in media (queerbaiting, bury your gays trope), the last thing we need is people now saying we can't even ship two fictional characters together.

It has nothing to do with homophobia. I'd feel the same way if they tried to force a storyline about Mormons, skateboarders, or whatever. If there's an established character I happen to like, I DON'T want someone fiddling around with their story. As for "shitting" on people who ship things I don't like; it's one of my hobbies, and I throughly enjoy it. That won't change.

 

[Blaze]

It has nothing to do with homophobia. I'd feel the same way if they tried to force a storyline about Mormons, skateboarders, or whatever. If there's an established character I happen to like, I DON'T want someone fiddling around with their story. As for "shitting" on people who ship things I don't like; it's one of my hobbies, and I throughly enjoy it. That won't change.

See that's the thing. When someone says things like "they're forcing the gay on me", that comes off as homophobic.

 

[Puppet]

I don't want to come off as a jerk here, but why do you care? People get so mad as soon as someone sees gay subtext with two characters. Why does it matter? Usually the answer to that is homophobia. If people weren't homophobic, than it wouldn't matter whether gay subtext was there or not. People have always, and always will, ship characters together. Straight, gay, and everything in between. If you have two characters on TV, you bet your ass someone ships them. Why shit on people for shipping two characters together (within reason of course, I don't support ships between adults and minors, or incest).

Just to make things clear, I wasn't 'shitting' on people who do this, I was merely curious as to why this has been happening so much lately. It was genuine curiosity. And it certainly isn't due to homophobia on my part (which would be weird, considering I'm part of the LGBT community myself). If people want to ship, let them ship, I just want to understand why...and why in recent years more than in the past.

One thing that isn't cool is fetishizing gay couples, which maybe is what you're referring to with Supernatural, as it seems many fans are actually just straight girls that have a gay fetish. That I get, I'm not really okay with that either because it completely reduces the identity of gay people, like we're just there for the pleasure of others, but then those girls who have a fetish for gay men are the same people that are "grossed out" by lesbians. Not saying that's the case for everyone, but I've seen that before so I get that aspect of it.

And this is generally my issue with the Destiel shippers of Supernatural. Seeing as I'm a huge part of the fandom, I know that most of the shippers are straight girls who have a gay fetish. (the same can be said for the Wincest shippers.) And, yeah, that's definitely a problem, in other fandoms as well I'm sure.

But as a general rule, who cares if people see subtext that you don't see. Everyone has a different interpretation of things. And I think it's pretty crappy to look down on people who enjoys a ship, even if it's not cannon. That's like saying to the gay community "look, I don't have anything against you guys, as long as my favourite character isn't gay though".

Again, I wasn't looking down on anyone (not counting the earlier mentions of Destiel, which I've already explained my reasons for, and still I accept that they exist) but simply curious. I'm not blind to subtext, whether that's in Supernatural or Fuffy in BtVS, but I am curious as to how it goes from simply recognizing the subtext to straight out shipping a non-canon same-sex relationship that is meant only to be friendship in the actual text.

I'd like to also point out too, that subtext is sometimes there on purpose and it can actually lead to something. There was an uproar by a large part of the Legend of Korra fanbase (the people who shipped Mako and Korra) when at the end of the series, Korra and Asami got together. Of course the other half of the fanbase wasn't surprised at all, because we had been saying the subtext was there all along. But even if they had never gotten together, what is so wrong about shipping the two together, especially when the ship is helping out some people, since our representation is already spread so thin.

Again, there is nothing wrong with it, I'm just wondering as to why it occurs and why it's been occurring so much lately, in particular.

I disagree with this. Maybe on TV there's some great friendship, but if the two characters are main characters, someone, somewhere, is going to ship them. Not only that, but many times, those characters do end up together at the end of the day. The truth is, in many of those subtext ship, if one of the character was of the opposite gender, the two characters would actually get together at some point. There's also the aspect of queerbaiting, when a show puts the subtext there on purpose to get the LGBT community to watch the show, but in reality the two characters will never get together.

And I'm not saying they aren't being shipped, there will always be someone, somewhere, who ship two characters together, whoever they may be. My curiosity is why the majority of fans of whatever show they like have in recent years begun to hardcore ship non-canon same-sex friendship-couples: that's all.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

See that's the thing. When someone says things like "they're forcing the gay on me", that comes off as homophobic.

Nobody said that...though, you're really making me want to. 😛

 

[Blaze]

Just to make things clear, I wasn't 'shitting' on people who do this, I was merely curious as to why this has been happening so much lately. It was genuine curiosity. And it certainly isn't due to homophobia on my part (which would be weird, considering I'm part of the LGBT community myself). If people want to ship, let them ship, I just want to understand why...and why in recent years more than in the past.

I didn't mean you in particular, but more so in the general sense because many people do shit on people over characters being gay far too often. I realize I might have came off a bit aggressive in my post, but trust me when I say the aggression wasn't aimed at you (just to be clear I no qualm with you, and I think this is an important topic). I just hear so many homophobic arguments against gay ships that I am a bit sensitive to the topic.

And this is generally my issue with the Destiel shippers of Supernatural. Seeing as I'm a huge part of the fandom, I know that most of the shippers are straight girls who have a gay fetish. (the same can be said for the Wincest shippers.) And, yeah, that's definitely a problem, in other fandoms as well I'm sure.

Yes completely agree with this. That is indeed a big problem. And a problem I also see in real life, equally so with men fetishizing lesbians, and straight girls fetishizing gay men. It's a bit issue.

Again, I wasn't looking down on anyone (not counting the earlier mentions of Destiel, which I've already explained my reasons for, and still I accept that they exist) but simply curious. I'm not blind to subtext, whether that's in Supernatural or Fuffy in BtVS, but I am curious as to how it goes from simply recognizing the subtext to straight out shipping a non-canon same-sex relationship that is meant only to be friendship in the actual text.

The same way people ship straight ships that are non-cannon. Also, keep in mind that, every ship at some point started out non-cannon. Spuffy was non-cannon for 5 years before it happened, but many people still shipped it prior to s6. If the subtext is there, people will ship it. The thing with gay ships is that it's just much less likely that the ship actually becomes cannon.

 

[Puppet]

I didn't mean you in particular, but more so in the general sense because many people do shit on people over characters being gay far too often. I realize I might have came off a bit aggressive in my post, but trust me when I say the aggression wasn't aimed at you (just to be clear I no qualm with you, and I think this is an important topic). I just hear so many homophobic arguments against gay ships that I am a bit sensitive to the topic.

Okay, good to know it wasn't personal, I was honestly shocked cause it didn't sound like you, so phew.

The same way people ship straight ships that are non-cannon. Also, keep in mind that, every ship at some point started out non-cannon. Spuffy was non-cannon for 5 years before it happened, but many people still shipped it prior to s6. If the subtext is there, people will ship it. The thing with gay ships is that it's just much less likely that the ship actually becomes cannon.

I guess it might be because I rarely ship non-canon. BtVS doesn't count, I write fanfic, kinda have to get into non-canon ships for that. But any other show I'm invested in, I never ship non-canon. I didn't ship Spuffy until after Spike had his 'revelation' in S5, for instance. So I guess I just don't see it the way others do and that's why I get curious.

 

[Blaze]

I guess it might be because I rarely ship non-canon. BtVS doesn't count, I write fanfic, kinda have to get into non-canon ships for that. But any other show I'm invested in, I never ship non-canon. I didn't ship Spuffy until after Spike had his 'revelation' in S5, for instance. So I guess I just don't see it the way others do and that's why I get curious.

I think the only reason we don't see more straight non-cannon ships is because the straight ships usually sails off and become cannon.

It just seems straight relationships are always seen as more serious in the media because they are very likely to happen, where as gay relationship are always discredited as soon as they involve the main character because those relationships won't actually happen and everyone knows it.

 

[Puppet]

I think the only reason we don't see more straight non-cannon ships is because the straight ships usually sails off and become cannon.

It just seems straight relationships are always seen as more serious in the media because they are very likely to happen, where as gay relationship are always discredited as soon as they involve the main character because those relationships won't actually happen and everyone knows it.

And now I'm just getting depressed, cause you are, of course, totally right. Media have made large strides, part of which was begun by BtVS itself, but there is still such a long road ahead and that should not be the case.

Maybe I should do my part and start shipping non-canon same-sex friendships? Eh, probably not, but it's a nice thought 🙂

 

[Blaze]

And now I'm just getting depressed, cause you are, of course, totally right. Media have made large strides, part of which was begun by BtVS itself, but there is still such a long road ahead and that should not be the case.

Maybe I should do my part and start shipping non-canon same-sex friendships? Eh, probably not, but it's a nice thought 🙂

I think the true change has to come from society as a whole and how the LGBT community is accepted in said society.

Of course no one should ship two people that they don't see as a romantic match. But as a whole, this issue is bigger than simply shipping. It speaks a lot about how people view LGBT people.