Giles and Buffy: Season Seven

[Flannen]

So, I've had a look in all the forums I can think of where this might have already been discussed, and I can't find anything. Apologies if I've managed to overlook it though. I'm guessing the threads that are about this are in the cemetary now.

I know this has been mentioned in passing in various other threads but I thought I'd make a specific one for it.

The breakdown in the relationship between Giles and Buffy absolutely breaks my heart. I feel so awful for Giles towards the end of the season and Buffy's behaviour towards does anger me quite a lot. I've heard all the reasons as to why Giles should have been treated this way; his alliance with Wood to kill Spike being one of the main ones, but I don't think this is a good enough reason.

I would completely understand her being mad at him for a little while but she shows him so little respect towards the end. What Giles did with Wood, in comparison to everything Giles has done and sacrificed for Buffy, just isn't that big of a deal to me. Even if it was Angel, instead of Spike, I still would have understood where Giles was coming from and still would have found Buffy's reaction infuriating.

I think it might have a little bit to do with the fact I actually think it is really out of character for Buffy to be this way with him. She's never really been this ungrateful before.

So, any thoughts? Any one as devastated as I was with the way the relationship went down hill?

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I must say I was devestated. I've remembered first season, Prophecy Girl, how he almost gave his life for her, because her words touched him. And all the other seasons, he was like a father to her, he tried to protect her, and I'll never forget his look when she died. His, Willow's and Xande's.. it just braks my hart. I always love their relathionship from the begining, how she hugged him when he came back in the end of season 6, and when she was back from Heaven how he looked at her. I'm just sorry we didn't had one more Buffy/Giles moment. Just one. Sorry, I think I'm gonna cry. And I do agree with it, if that was Angel in Spike's place, I would feel the same. But I always found intersting how they all accepted Angel, but not Spike. I mean Angel tortured Giles, but Giles found in his heart to help him in Amends, just like Xander. But they always saw Spike like he was an animal, with or without soul. But to stay on topic, I think Buffy was wrong here. Everything he did for her, she did for him, how they felt.. he stayed there when he wasn't her Watcher anymore, and it's like she forgot that just because of one thing. That's sad.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Yes, Giles and Buffy's relationship dynamic is one of the most touching and beautiful aspects of the earlier seasons. How he steps up as her surrogate father figure even though this is frowned upon by the Watcher's Council (Merrick mentions it in the original Buffy film) is very sweet. I feel like Giles had a special connection with Buffy from the beginning, more then even his desire and duty to protect and train her. Like Angel perhaps, he saw what her future held, what she would have to go through, and how difficult her life was going to be - and he wanted to be there for her.

I was watching 'Becoming Part 2" again last night, and how he allows himself to be tortured by Angelus, refusing to tell him what is needed to open the portal for Acathla is pretty incredible. This shows such dedication on his part. He would rather allow himself to die then allow Angelus to open the vortex to Hell.

It is sad what happened between them in Season 7, I'll agree. So much has happened between them, perhaps they can never go back to the father/daughter relationship they once had, where she looked up to and listened to him. Maybe they are on more equal ground now? Regardless of the status of their relationship now, Giles had a large hand in creating who Buffy is today. And that's an important thing to remember.

Perhaps Buffy will never really forgive him for trying to kill Spike. Also, I just want to mention that I don't think it's the fact that Giles tried to kill Spike that bothers her so much, it's the fact that he tricked her in order to allow Wood to attempt it.

 

[Megalita]

I feel like Giles was completely mistreated for the majority of S7. It was really upsetting to me, because he has done countless things for Buffy and the gang, and yet one mistake he makes somehow seemed to erase all of that. I thought Buffy was sympathetic and instead of shunning someone who has made a mistake, she would help them (as seen with Dark Willow.) Though Buffy's reaction may have been slightly justified, I am still astounded at how rude she was to Giles, slamming the door on his face and stating that she doesn't need him anymore at the end of Lies My Parents Told Me.

Buffy, more than anyone, understands that sometimes you have to do what you have to do. She's plainly stated that she would kill anyone if it came down to it for the greater good, even Dawn. Though killing Spike isn't "for the greater good," Buffy should at least sympathize with Giles' opinion of that and realize that hey, maybe to some people keeping Spike around is a horrible idea and I need to prove them wrong.

 

[Emzzie]

Definitley devastated. After Anya, Giles was my favorite character. He was there for her, he loved her like a daughter, he would have given his life for her as he almost did to save her in many episodes. Giles did not deserve that. Giles thought what he was doing with Wood would save Buffy from something. She has a right to be mad, but how can she just forget everything he ever did for her? She has hurt him before and he was still there for her. So how could she act so ungrateful? He was like a parent, he lead her, sacrificed for her and helped make her what she was.

As you can see, this topic hits a sensitive spot 😉

 

[Grey Ghost]

I'm not sticking up for her because I think that she should have treated Giles with a bit more respect especially after all the aways he looked after her and I believe that he genuinely cared for her in a big brother or even fatherly way. But there are times when I can see why She acted the way she did in the end. He wanted two of her boyfriends dead, that's not going to help, I also remember when he stripped her of her powers via drugs because that was the tradition [only following orders do not count as that is a feeble excuse for putting her in danger]. Also she is a teenager which is very important time for development and she wasn't getting the chance as she was too busy saving the world, and it wasn't a job she applied for it was just thrust upon her. As for the attempted killing of Spike, I think Giles was a fool to be drawn into the plot, Wood wasn't doing it for the sake of Buffy or the world, he did it because he hated Spike, understandably as Spike had killed Wood's mother but Wood should not have used Giles to sidetrack Buffy.

 

[Flannen]

I know exactly how you feel Emzzie. I think it's the thing I get most upset about out of the whole series.

The thing that really breaks my heart, is the whole Jenny thing. What Giles sacrificed in order to be loyal to Buffy and the fact he never really got to make amends, it actually just too heartbreaking for me to able to put into words. I don't mean to blame Buffy for that by any means, but maybe she should have thought about that as much as I do.

Ok, I've upset myself now and everybody else it seems. Still I'm glad that other people feel the same. Poor Giles. 🙁

I'm not sticking up for her because I think that she should have treated Giles with a bit more respect especially after all the aways he looked after her and I believe that he genuinely cared for her in a big brother or even fatherly way. But there are times when I can see why She acted the way she did in the end. He wanted two of her boyfriends dead, that's not going to help, I also remember when he stripped her of her powers via drugs because that was the tradition [only following orders do not count as that is a feeble excuse for putting her in danger]. Also she is a teenager which is very important time for development and she wasn't getting the chance as she was too busy saving the world, and it wasn't a job she applied for it was just thrust upon her. As for the attempted killing of Spike, I think Giles was a fool to be drawn into the plot, Wood wasn't doing it for the sake of Buffy or the world, he did it because he hated Spike, understandably as Spike had killed Wood's mother but Wood should not have used Giles to sidetrack Buffy.

Giles didn't want Angel dead. He wanted Angelus dead. And when Angel had returned he didn't want him to die, but he, quite rightly, struggled to deal with what he was put through by him.

I don't see the circumstances of 'Helpless' as one of Giles' biggest mistakes. I think Giles learnt a hell of a lot from that lesson. He didn't want to do it in the first place and sacrificed his job in order to try and make amends. And Buffy forgave him when she realised that.

I don't think it's fair to blame Giles for Buffy having to save the world. I think that it's thanks to Giles she didn't end up like Kendra. He did as much as he could to give her a life.

And I'm not sure if I agree that Giles was drawn in. I think he was aware of the fact that his and Wood's reasons were different. Which doesn't sound like a good way to defend Giles. But I don't have as big of a problem with 'doing it for her good' when the intentions are selfless, which with Giles they are. Buffy has always relied on Giles to make, or a least help to make, decisions for her - which is what 'Standing' is all about.
I don't condone his decision here, I do think he made a mistake, but he's allowed to. He's only human. And I do wonder if he was told about 'Seeing Red' (was he told on screen? I've forgotten if he was). Either way, if he did know about it I think it would be a reason for his action. It does seem strange considering Angelus did things directly to Giles, where Spike didn't, which does seem odd especially if he didn't know. It's a bit of an extreme thing to do just because you don't want her to be with him.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

And I do wonder if he was told about 'Seeing Red' (was he told on screen? I've forgotten if he was). Either way, if he did know about it I think it would be a reason for his action. It does seem strange considering Angelus did things directly to Giles, where Spike didn't, which does seem odd especially if he didn't know. It's a bit of an extreme thing to do just because you don't want her to be with him.

This is a great question. I don't recall him being told on-screen about 'Seeing Red' although it seems plausible that Xander might have told him (after all, they are somewhat 'united' in their hatred for Spike).

Giles knowing about the attempted rape would definitely be good motive for siding with Wood in attempting to kill Spike.

 

[ubi4soft]

The thing that really breaks my heart, is the whole Jenny thing. What Giles sacrificed in order to be loyal to Buffy and the fact he never really got to make amends, it actually just too heartbreaking for me to able to put into words. I don't mean to blame Buffy for that by any means, but maybe she should have thought about that as much as I do.

In Revelations Giles called up Buffy for hiding Angel's return. I know you don't like me quoting, but just to be accurate:

Giles: (interrupts) Be quiet. (slowly turns to face her) (sternly) I won't remind you that the fate of the world often lies with the Slayer. What would be the point? Nor shall I remind you that you've jeopardized the lives of all that you hold dear by harboring a known murderer. But sadly, I must remind you that Angel tortured me... for hours... for pleasure. You should have told me he was alive. You didn't. You have no respect for me, or the job I perform.

I'm very sorry to remind you of a such upsetting event (Jenny's death).

I don't condone his decision here, I do think he made a mistake, but he's allowed to. He's only human.

He's mistake was going behind Buffy's back. He betrayed her trust again.

But I don't have as big of a problem with 'doing it for her good' when the intentions are selfless, which with Giles they are. Buffy has always relied on Giles to make, or a least help to make, decisions for her - which is what 'Standing' is all about.

And in here, I'm sorry that it was cut out that scene where Giles is telling Buffy about killing Ben. As for Buffy relying on Giles to make decisions for her, when he suggested in Gift that Dawn should be sacrificed, she kinda threaten everybody who would attempt such a thing.

Maybe it's just me, but I have a problem with doing things for the greater good, with preemptive strikes. I admired Buffy for being a straight up hero, for eliminating her opponents when they became actual threats. Preemptive leads to possible dictatorship, corruption and eliminates any eventual redemption.

I won't deny that Spike was a potential threat, but I will not accept that Giles did a good thing conspiring for a trap with a vengeful Wood behind Buffy's back.

 

[Emzzie]

I don't think anybody said he did a good thing. We all said he had good intentions, but he messed up. We all admitt what he did was wrong. We are also talking about if Buffy had a right to act the way she did towards him after. And after everything Giles did for her, and she all the times she messed up and he was there to help her clean it up, or the times she hurt him directly, well I think she did not.

That is a fantastic point Flannen! As I've said, Giles is like a father to her and if he knew that spike tried to rape her.....well soul or no soul, any father would be going after him.

 

[ubi4soft]

That is a fantastic point Flannen! As I've said, Giles is like a father to her and if he knew that spike tried to rape her.....well soul or no soul, any father would be going after him.

Giles didn't go after Angel for what Angelus did (killing Jenny and torture him). Why would he go after Spike for what he did when soulless? Double standard maybe?

I don't think anybody said he did a good thing. We all said he had good intentions, but he messed up. We all admit what he did was wrong. We are also talking about if Buffy had a right to act the way she did towards him after. And after everything Giles did for her, and she all the times she messed up and he was there to help her clean it up, or the times she hurt him directly, well I think she did not.

It was Buffy's turn to tell Giles that he has no respect for her. But he got his payback in Empty Places, didn't he?

 

[white avenger]

Giles betrayed Buffy's trust when he plotted with Robin Wood to have Spike killed. You have to understand that, regardless of anything else, what kind of threat that he might have potentially posed for everyone else, Buffy, as the acknowledged group leader, had decreed that Spike was not to be molested in any way. He was, to use an old phrase, under her protection. Giles knew that, and he chose his actions in spite of it. That is an act of mutiny under wartime conditions, and Buffy would have been quite justified in executing both him and Wood for their actions. Viewed in that way, she was quite merciful to both of them, a decision that she might have regretted a couple of episodes later when both men sided with the Scoobies and the Potentials in throwing her out of her own home.

I don't think that Buffy ever stopped loving Giles, and that opinion has been justified by the scene of their tearful reunion in the latest story arc of Season 8. Love and trust, however, atr two different things. There was a time during the latter part of Season 7 when Buffy lost all trust in Giles, and as a result, I seriously doubt that she will regain it in the near future, if at all. Good intentions do not excuse betrayal, and the fact that, ultimately, Spike was at least partially responsible for whatever degree of victory that Buffy and her people, would not hasten the healing process.

A lot of things obviously happened during the "lost months" between the end of Season 7 and the Beginning of Season 8 that we have not seen, and I think that it is significant that, during those months, while Buffy seemed to have put all of the bad feelings that she must have had towards Willow and Xander behind her, she still had ill feelings toward Giles until they were reunited in Tibet.

 

[Flannen]

Giles didn't go after Angel for what Angelus did (killing Jenny and torture him). Why would he go after Spike for what he did when soulless? Double standard maybe?

It was Buffy's turn to tell Giles that he has no respect for her. But he got his payback in Empty Places, didn't he?

No but he did go after Angelus. I don't think it's a souble standard. I think it's a pretty normal reaction. If Giles did know I don't think him sitting there saying 'oh, wait, he's got a soul' is going to take that pain away from him. And I don't think it should.

Giles didn't deserve to be told Buffy had no respect for him just because he had said it to her. And if he deserved payback for that then maybe Buffy should have paid him back for sacrificing his job, his life (as in actually having a one back in England) and his love (for Jenny).

Yes, he betrayed Buffy's trust, but so did Spike, Xander, Willow pretty much every single person did in some way or another, but she can forgive them? She should have done the same for Giles, considering how many time she had betrayed his.

I just do not think 'he betrayed her trust' or 'it was payback' justify how rude she was and how little she seemed to care about it. And like Emzzie said, we're not saying he did a good thing despite the intentions just that what he did does not warrant how he was treated.

This thread is still making me sad, maybe I shouldn't have started it 😉

 

[ubi4soft]

Originally Posted by ubi4soft
Giles didn't go after Angel for what Angelus did (killing Jenny and torture him). Why would he go after Spike for what he did when soulless? Double standard maybe?

No but he did go after Angelus. I don't think it's a souble standard. I think it's a pretty normal reaction. If Giles did know I don't think him sitting there saying 'oh, wait, he's got a soul' is going to take that pain away from him. And I don't think it should.

Please clarify your statement. Are you saying that Spike is guilty for what he did when soulless, but Angel is not guilty for what he did when soulless?

Giles didn't deserve to be told Buffy had no respect for him just because he had said it to her.

Please read again what I've said. Anyhow, Buffy didn't told Giles that she has no respect for him, she told him "I think you've taught me everything I need to know".

A lot of fans complain that the characters were written OOC in S7, but the worst is still to come, I mean "Empty Places" that episode makes me vomit, except for the Spike/Andrew fried onion discussion which make me hungry.

Sorry to upset you.

 

[Flannen]

Please clarify your statement. Are you saying that Spike is guilty for what he did when soulless, but Angel is not guilty for what he did when soulless?

No, I meant that Giles did try and avenge what Angelus did to him, but only when he was Angelus. He did never trust Angel again, and quite rightly so. In both circumstances I meant that it's difficult for Giles to just accept what's happened just because it was when they didn't have a soul. And that I think he's quite right in doing that. And maybe, IF knew about what happened in 'Seeing Red' maybe it angered him more that Spike tried to hurt Buffy, than when he himself was hurt by Angelus. Which I think would be typical in his fatherly feelings for her.

Please read again what I've said. Anyhow, Buffy didn't told Giles that she has no respect for him, she told him "I think you've taught me everything I need to know".

I think she pretty much does say that with those words. Not to mention the way she looks at him, her body language towards, which even Faith picks up when she returns. And I'm not entirely sure what you want me to re-read? It's not clarifying anything for me.

A lot of fans complain that the characters were written OOC in S7, but the worst is still to come, I mean "Empty Places" that episode makes me vomit, except for the Spike/Andrew fried onion discussion which make me hungry.

Sorry to upset you.

I do think it was out of character for Buffy to treat him this way. She had forgiven many other people for their wrongdoing towards her and, even though I agree Giles shouldn't have done what he did, he simply did not deserve to be treated that way by Buffy. It may be coming across that I'm trying to defend Giles' action. I'm not, but I do understand why he did what he did.

And it's not you that's upset me, I was only referring to the fact the whole subject is probably the most upsetting thing, for me, from the whole show.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I'm sick and tired of people making excuses for Giles. It's like they want Buffy to be chained to this father figure for the rest of her existence.

Giles WAS NEVER her father. Giles had betrayed her one too many times by "Lies My Parents Told Me". Giles had never apologized or expressed remorse for betraying her in that episode. Also, Giles had failed to realize that Spike was as much in danger of being killed in that house, as he was a danger. For God's sake! He was a vampire in a house filled with potential vampire slayers, a very powerful witch and a very powerful and experienced vampire slayer. All he had to do was make one move and he would have dusted. I think that Giles had never forgiven Spike for rejecting his offer to be a mentor back in S4. Combined that with the state of his anxiety over the Watcher's Council destruction and his growing fear that Buffy may have outgrown him, I'm not surprised that he was willing to give up on Spike so quickly and plot with Robin Wood to kill the vampire behind Buffy's back. What a stupid move!

He had betrayed Buffy the first time in "Helpless". Since he had expressed remorse, she forgave him. He would have betrayed her in "The Gift" by killing Dawn, if Buffy had not sacrificed herself. But she did instruct Spike to kill him, if he had touched a hair of Dawn's. But when he had betrayed her for the last time in "Lies My Parents Told Me" and failed to express remorse . . . that was it. Buffy realized that she had outgrown Giles - even if she was destined to make more mistakes in the future. Unfortunately, many fans of the show still refuse to consider this and continue to wallow in this desire for Buffy and Giles' relationship to remain the same. Boy! People do not like change.

I do think it was out of character for Buffy to treat him this way. She had forgiven many other people for their wrongdoing towards her and, even though I agree Giles shouldn't have done what he did, he simply did not deserve to be treated that way by Buffy.

Yes, I do believe that Buffy was right not to forgive Giles. Why should she? He had failed to express remorse for his actions. Not through words or deeds. At least Spike and Willow had been remorseful over their actions - in their own ways. Not Giles. Not since "Helpless". Instead, he made excuses for himself when Buffy realized that he had deceived her.

She was right not to forgive him. And to make matters worse, he would betray her again in "Empty Spaces" and

Spoiler

in the Season 8 comics in a matter regarding Faith.

 

[Flannen]

I'm sick and tired of people making excuses for Giles. It's like they want Buffy to be chained to this father figure for the rest of her existence.

I don't think that is what anyone is suggesting here. Giles is not a figure of patriarchy. By depending on him and loving him as a father she is not in any way submitting to male dominance. Just like I don't by loving and depending on my own father.

Giles WAS NEVER her father. Giles had betrayed her one too many times by "Lies My Parents Told Me". Giles had never apologized or expressed remorse for betraying her in that episode.

I'm sorry but I disagree here. Obviously, biologically, Giles was never father but he was in every other sense of the word. Of course he was and there are so many examples of this. The 'chat' at the end of 'Innocence' is so reminiscent of what any good father would do that in situation. He gave up so much, the way that any good father does, in order to stand by her side when she wanted him to. He helped her out financially, again like a father does for their daughter. He was sacked from his job because it was SO obvious that he was acting more as a father than a watcher.

I do agree that he didn't exactly express remorse, but he only should have if he thought there was something wrong in what he did. And I guess he didn't so he wasn't going to apologise. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he was right, I just think that may be why.

Also, Giles had failed to realize that Spike was as much in danger of being killed in that house, as he was a danger. For God's sake! He was a vampire in a house filled with potential vampire slayers, a very powerful witch and a very powerful and experienced vampire slayer. All he had to do was make one move and he would have dusted. I think that Giles had never forgiven Spike for rejecting his offer to be a mentor back in S4. Combined that with the state of his anxiety over the Watcher's Council destruction and his growing fear that Buffy may have outgrown him, I'm not surprised that he was willing to give up on Spike so quickly and plot with Robin Wood to kill the vampire behind Buffy's back. What a stupid move!

Very true. And regarding the 'out growing' him thing, I think Giles had realised this quite a long time ago. He realised it in season five, but because of Buffy's desire not to realise this herself he stayed and then kept coming back. I imagine he would have been quite confused by this point. I think he was willing to give up on Spike for similar reasons as Xander. They've both always been quite black and white about vampires, although less so with Giles and Angel, I suppose.

Buffy realized that she had outgrown Giles - even if she was destined to make more mistakes in the future. Unfortunately, many fans of the show still refuse to consider this and continue to wallow in this desire for Buffy and Giles' relationship to remain the same. Boy! People do not like change.

I don't think that just because some fans disagree with you on this they're refusing to accept it. It's simply a matter of opinion. No, I don't particularly change myself. But that is not why I have a problem with how their relationship changed. It's because of WHY it changed and my firm belief that the poor guy didn't deserve it.

Yes, I do believe that Buffy was right not to forgive Giles. Why should she? He had failed to express remorse for his actions. Not through words or deeds. At least Spike and Willow had been remorseful over their actions - in their own ways. Not Giles. Not since "Helpless". Instead, he made excuses for himself when Buffy realized that he had deceived her.

She was right not to forgive him.

I've already stated why she should. For all the things he lost and sacrificed for her. The fact that Giles always came back when she wanted to and gave up the life had started to build is a huge act of remorse.

I do think you have a lot of interesting points, especially as you see it completely different to how I do; and that's all it is, just a difference of opinion.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I'm sick and tired of people making excuses for Giles. It's like they want Buffy to be chained to this father figure for the rest of her existence.

"They"? Watch that tendency to "lump" all the fans into the same category. We disagree all across the board on Giles' actions regarding Spike, and for many other characters for that matter.

Giles WAS NEVER her father.

Have to disagree here. Giles was very much her surrogate father figure. Buffy's father wasn't around, and Giles was her father for years, in my opinion. She certainly looked up to him, and followed his lead as any girl would to a father she loved and respected.

Giles had betrayed her one too many times by "Lies My Parents Told Me". Giles had never apologized or expressed remorse for betraying her in that episode.

Perhaps this is the key here to why she might never "get over" the Spike/Giles/Wood incident. Giles had betrayed her too many times for her to forgive him again?

And, betraying each other is sort of what the Scoobies do best. Spike betrayed Buffy's trust when he attempted to force himself on her, Buffy betrayed Giles' trust when she neglected to inform him about Angel, Willow betrayed her trust when she attempted to end the world, Xander betrayed her trust when he...etc, etc.

Also, Giles had failed to realize that Spike was as much in danger of being killed in that house, as he was a danger. For God's sake! He was a vampire in a house filled with potential vampire slayers, a very powerful witch and a very powerful and experienced vampire slayer. All he had to do was make one move and he would have dusted.

This is a good point but not a very strong argument, I'm afraid. Spike was never thought of as inept in this season. Sure, he was chipped for some of the time, but it was obvious to all there he was under Buffy's protection, just as Dawn was in Season 5. I doubt Spike felt like he was in danger in that house (hence the "told you so" cocky snarky look he gives Giles after Buffy releases him from his chains in LMPTM). No one would have dared to touch him (except Faith, but only because she didn't know about the situation when she arrived). I mean, hell, even Kennedy was respectful of him.

I think that Giles had never forgiven Spike for rejecting his offer to be a mentor back in S4.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. When did Spike reject this offer as mentor?

Combined that with the state of his anxiety over the Watcher's Council destruction and his growing fear that Buffy may have outgrown him, I'm not surprised that he was willing to give up on Spike so quickly and plot with Robin Wood to kill the vampire behind Buffy's back. What a stupid move!

Agreed. It was certainly an ill thought-out move on his part. I mean, what was he thinking? He knew how much Spike meant to Buffy.

He had betrayed Buffy the first time in "Helpless". Since he had expressed remorse, she forgave him. He would have betrayed her in "The Gift" by killing Dawn, if Buffy had not sacrificed herself. But she did instruct Spike to kill him, if he had touched a hair of Dawn's. But when he had betrayed her for the last time in "Lies My Parents Told Me" and failed to express remorse . . . that was it. Buffy realized that she had outgrown Giles - even if she was destined to make more mistakes in the future.

Well, if this is the case, isn't it safe to say then that all the Scoobies, then, have "out-grown" each other? - which obviously isn't the case. Friendships and relationahips can change their composition with time. It's not nessesarily a bad thing. Maybe she doesn't trust Giles with her life like she used too. That's OK. There's time. But I don't think they're ever regain that Watcher/Slayer relationship where she allows him to make the decisions for her. I think she has out-grown that. She proved that when she decided to remove Spike's chip without consulting him at all.

---------- Post added at 10:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 AM ----------
EDIT:

I think it's safe to say that Spike is indirectly to blame for the loss of trust between Buffy and Giles and the breakdown of their relationship. Giles was right when he said that her feelings for Spike were coloring her judgment.

You just don't mess with Buffy's boyfriends. Seriously.

 

[Strawbeary]

Giles WAS NEVER her father. Giles had betrayed her one too many times by "Lies My Parents Told Me". Giles had never apologized or expressed remorse for betraying her in that episode.

For what, exactly, is Giles supposed to express remorse for here? For helping Wood attempt to avenge his mothers death? For trying to kill a vampire Buffy had lost perspective of? For getting noticeably exasperated as Spike resisted attempts to cure him of The First's trigger?

If you are tired of people making excuses for Giles, I am tired of people deferring to every decision Buffy makes. Giles had cause for alarm and Buffy and Spike were giving it to him.

I'm not surprised that he was willing to give up on Spike so quickly and plot with Robin Wood to kill the vampire behind Buffy's back. What a stupid move!

Why stupid? I mean, is it really surprising that Giles didn't trust Spike one iota. Why should he have? Simply because Buffy insisted it be so?

What I am getting at is that I am not sure why Buffy is above reproach in her decision making. Has she not failed, in the past, to make the right decision? Why were Wood and Giles in the wrong for attempting to remove a threat they saw simply because Buffy told them not to?

He would have betrayed her in "The Gift" by killing Dawn, if Buffy had not sacrificed herself.

And Buffy was ready to betray the entire world by letting it slip into chaos rather than see Dawn harmed. One can argue the philosophical conundrum of whether it is right to end one life to save others (society has been wrestling with that one for ever) but to call someone a betrayer because they are willing to do that when someone else is not is a tad unfair.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

For what, exactly, is Giles supposed to express remorse for here? For helping Wood attempt to avenge his mothers death? For trying to kill a vampire Buffy had lost perspective of? For getting noticeably exasperated as Spike resisted attempts to cure him of The First's trigger?

Giles should feel guilty for tricking Buffy into "patrolling" with him when in reality, he was waiting for Wood to make his move on the unsuspecting Spike, whom was arguably her closest friend at the time.

And, let's not forget how Giles didn't seem at all concerned for one minute that Wood might be in danger in his little "attempt" to bring down Spike. Giles only wanted Spike dead and out of the way, regardless of the cost. What was Wood thinking going and purposely triggering Spike's chip? Spike was ten times stronger then him. He was asking to get killed. The only reason Spike didn't kill Wood was because he knew it would upset Buffy. Wood deserved everything that was coming to him.

No one here, including myself, is suggesting that it was OOC for Giles to want Spike dead, or even to conspire with the vengeful Wood to avenge his mother's murder. The issue is the way Giles went about with the situation.

If you are tired of people making excuses for Giles, I am tired of people deferring to every decision Buffy makes. Giles had cause for alarm and Buffy and Spike were giving it to him.

I never said that Buffy made the "right" decision in shutting the door in Giles' face or, for that matter, in giving the heads-up for the removal of Spike's chip. Sometimes Buffy acts with her heart not her brain. Spike WAS a threat, you're absolutely right. He was volatile, unpredictable - you think Buffy cared? She wasn't about to let anything happen to him, regardless. This situation is no different then the situation with Dawn in S5. Buffy wasn't going to allow the chip to kill Spike or hurt him in any way. She did what she felt was necessary. Does it matter if she made the "right" decision? She made it, and it is ultimately her decision.