Help me understand the negativity

[ladydorotea]

Silverspike disagrees: "Cangel is boring as heck and equally repetitive" For you maybe, but not for everyone.

Er, I never insisted it was boring for everyone, just for me. I disagreed with you in particular , not with entire Cangel ship out there.

 

[Silverspike]

But I didn't really say anything apart from add some quotes? So you're disagreeing with them? 🙂

 

[ladydorotea]

But I didn't really say anything apart from add some quotes? So you're disagreeing with them? 🙂

I disagreed with the sentiment of 'I like me a bit of Cangel and thought both characters worked...', followed by various quotes that later were proved irrelevant by counter-quotes and some such. Cause, you know, they (A and C) did not work. And the proof is in the pudding, that is the complete irrelevance of Cangel to the overall story of the series, and the easiness of Joss letting go of it and never bringing it up again once it was done. Same as in his bringing up Bangel again and again and again about a decade and a half later. Does not mean I disagree with the folks who like the ship. Just with you bringing up a bunch of outdated quotes as a proof of something that never worked for me.

I never watched the series as it ran, and never followed the debacle of online discussions etc. And the more I think about it the more I am happy I never did. At the very least I was able to make up my own opinion without any influence from anybody else. Just by watching entire series after it was done, never getting used to/noticing things that were put in just for somebody's gratification. (I am also very happy I never read the plethora of various fanfics, but that's another story)

 

[Silverspike]

Just with you bringing up a bunch of outdated quotes as a proof of something that never worked for me.

They're not irrelevant. It's the writing staff including Whedon saying what they thought of the pairing.

Cause, you know, they (A and C) did not work.

For you maybe, but not everybody.

 

[ladydorotea]

They're not irrelevant. It's the writing staff including Whedon saying what they thought of the pairing.



For you maybe. See what I did there? 🙂

They are irrelevant to the over all story of the series. And no, I don't see what you did there besides posting another smiley.

 

[Silverspike]

Quotes are relevant.

I can't see how they're not as we're talking about why the writers did what they did AT THE TIME. Okay. 😀

You have problems with that take it up with Whedon.

 

[bespangeled]

They are irrelevant to the over all story of the series. And no, I don't see what you did there besides posting another smiley.

By the time we got to season 5 AtS Buffy just felt irrelevant to me. As Andrew said, she was moving on. I think Buffy was a first love for Angel - quite possibly the first human he ever loved. And since it was a high school romance for Buffy, there were lots of declarations of forever. But by the time season 7 came around Buffy had already let Angel know she intended to move on. 'Maybe, someday, but it would be years if ever '- not a ringing endorsement for a future.

Buffy told Andrew to take Dana because Angel was no longer to be trusted. Hell, she could have come to LA to get Dana, and find out what was going on with Angel - could have called him on the phone if SMG refused the gig(which she did).

And I love "You're Welcome" - It really showed how fantastic Cordy and Angel were together. The end always makes me puddle up. There's also Angel's desperate search for Cordy after he is rescued from the water. I never found the boring or repetitive, or tragic and star-crossed. They were snarky and yet incredibly caring. Cordy was always there for Angel when he doubted himself, as well as when he got a big head, or he screwed up.

 

[thetopher]

On the one hand the Bangel scene in 'Chosen' wasn't at all the brush off, it was hope for the future. I was throwing Angel a bone...or a cookie in this case. Buffy meant everything about what she said, she was in the middle of an apocalypse and still figuring things out in the present.
That she told Angel anything was significant.

But also, people might dismiss Cangel as boring (I never did, I just think it was poorly handled in the latter part of S3) but it was significant- it did matter. To dismiss it as not adding to the overall story is just wrong. The Cangel romance emerged from the Cangel friendship, which is entirely significant to Angel's story, arguably as much as Buffy is.
If Darla made Angel, and Buffy gave Angel a purpose and a path, then Cordelia kept Angel on that path, she helped him stay focused and butted heads with him when he needed it.

Both Buffy and Cordelia mattered in their own way, and both still do.

Angel is a great guy, a hero, but he does need somebody around to help keep him focused, keep him grounded.

 

[Doppelgang]

As a first-time watcher of season 3 and season 4 of Angel, I am just up to and have watched the episode apocalypse nowish, and it doesn't surprise me to hear of this negativity about the Cordelia storyline.

It seems to me that in the space of a few episodes, from the last episode of season 3 onwards they have completely ruined the Cordelia character and what she brought to the show. To start with they undermine her story from end of season 3 where she chose to be a higher being, by saying she is bored of it now, and in the process undermine the whole notion of a higher realm. Then they have her for episode after episode glum and fearful, when the cordelia character is all about fun and light.

Obviously the developing closeness with Angel presented a problem and a potential storyline dead-end, but the way they tried to get out of that cul-de-sac is just very poorly handled and very contrived for me. It is so frustrating as well, as there was so much about the Angel show at this point that I was beginning to really like and get in to.

So much potential for development of the show also, and then they decide to revert back to the old, make the good guys evil to mix it up a bit trick. I don't want to see Cordelia evil, I don't want to see conflict created between her and angel, and angel and connor. I hope please some people on here can assure me there are some good things storyline wise to come out of it. Because I am really not happy how they manufactured a closeness that didn't ever exist between connor and a cordelia with her memory in this last episode I just watched in order to create some conflict and tension 🙁

 

[bespangeled]

You know, I never thought Cordy was made a higher being. My take is that she was kidnapped to be used. So, it was only boring because she wasn't a PTB. She was already a puppet when she returned.

And I loathe it because it was really shameful the the choice of storyline appears to originate in real events and a desire to punish an actress. And it's so dumb, so convoluted. There are excellent episodes and scene in those not quite so good episodes. I just refer to the Cordy, Connor Jasmin arc.

 

[ladydorotea]

But by the time season 7 came around Buffy had already let Angel know she intended to move on.

Weeell, Buffy had let Angel know she intended to move on in S4, as far as I recall. We all know how it ended once, twice, thrice, etc. And since I watched the whole series in one go in 2009, all the denial and movings on slipped right pass me causing no effect on the overall perception of the series. I guiess the time put all the dots over all the i's. So I was taking the Bangel scene in Chosen as the only possible and rational conclusion for the series. Everything else was resolved and properly buried ( or turned to ash) by Whedon himself - who absolutely did not have to come up with his 'Buffy and Angel transcend everything', and yet he did. You might call it shipper pandering etc, but, he pandered to this particular ship, and he did it with absolutely no reason at all but his personal perspective. So, I stick with it, and also stick with dismissal of Cangel as lively but insignificant to the big picture. Which does not mean I begrudge other folks their enjoyment of it. I just find it boring.

Buffy told Andrew to take Dana because Angel was no longer to be trusted. Hell, she could have come to LA to get Dana, and find out what was going on with Angel - could have called him on the phone if SMG refused the gig(which she did).

One good thing that came out of the comics was Joss personal retcon of Buffy ever being in Rome, or ever being aware of Andrew 'representing her' in any capacity. She could not have come to get Dana in LA , because she had no clue about Dana's situation. Andrew took the initiative there. SMG later offered to be in the finale - but Joss did not want her there, so there we go.

And I love "You're Welcome" - It really showed how fantastic Cordy and Angel were together.

Actually, it only showed ( to me) how fantastic Cordy and Angel were when they were 'not together'. As in how fantastic they were when they were friends and partners, and how morbidly awkward they became when kurrumption crap was brought into play. You are Welcome was a very good nod to that friendship - and it also acknowledged that everything else between those two, including notCordelia shagging of Connor, was in the past that was closed and healed. Angel's rebound Nina romance could only be pursued after YaW without making him look like dick with Cordelia still in the coma.
Which only proved btw, that unlike Buffy, Cordelia relationship was nice at one point, but it was a passing thing, same as was Nina.

 

[bespangeled]

Overall, I agree. That's the nice part of being a Spangel - I'm not worried about other OTP because all the humans will die eventually. I can see all of this, and I can even see a nice show of how to be together when you don't have to spend so much time fighting forces trying to split you! 🙂

 

[Dobian]

I didn't hate season 4 like a lot of people, but I can see where people are coming from. Cordelia brought a balance to the show during the first couple of seasons, when the show was a lot less armageddonish and didn't take itself quite so seriously. It looked like thery were going to get back to that at the beginning of season 4, when Cordy was stuck in the higher plane and making humorous cracks about Angel rescuing her from her boredom. But then we got amnesia Cordy followed by Not-Cordy, made drearier by the continuing sulky presence of Connor (Vincent Kartheiser said in an interview that he about begged the writers to listen to his ideas because they were running his character into the ground, so I don't fault the actor), and the miserable Fred/Wesley/Gunn soap opera. The whole tone of the show came out of balance, but I still enjoyed it for its suspenseful plot with its twists and turns.

I think people would have been more forgiving of season 4 if the writers had brought Cordelia back at the end. And I think what angered people most is that they could have and seemed to tease the audience that they were going to, by putting her into a coma and not killing her outright, and including her in several scenes up to the final confrontation between Angel and Connor at the end. Either Fred or Gunn I believe even made the comment that they could stop Jasmine if they could get to Cordelia and bring her back, but that idea was quickly dismissed like it had never even been brought up, and Angel took care of it instead with the demon head. It was a big missed opportunity. The writers could have had their fun with evil Cordelia, and the fans gotten the real Cordy back at the end, a win-win.

The statement that there was nothing more to explore with the character I found incredibly lame. You could make an even bigger argument of that sort for Lorne, or even Fred. Cordy's return in You're Welcome showed two things. First, what had been missing from the show since about the middle of season 3, and second, how big an impact she would have had on the Wolfram and Hart storyline if the writers hadn't dropped the ball. She had a bigger impact on Angel in just that one episode than Fred, Gunn, and Wesley in the entire season combined up to that point.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

@Wesley Pyrce
The black and white answer is that the 4th season specifically Cordelia's arc in it was changed at the last minute because Charisma had returned to filming noticeably pregnant and her ending as "A head of cabbage" as Skip phrased it was largely due to Joss having thrown a hissy fit over the situation. Joss's initial intention was much the same but minus Jasmine and it's possible the REAL Cordelia would have made it to the next season alive. I need to read the official release of the original concept as at the moment I only know what other members have told me. If anyone knows where I can I'd appreciate it. I'd tried googling last night but came up empty.

Jasmine was an accommodation to make sense of Charisma being pregnant on screen and as a result that was all that made sense. Nothing about it fit together such as how Lorne's memory antidote in 'Spin the Bottle' was the bridge between Cordelia's amnesia and Jasmine taking control of her or how several events throughout the series were supposed to have been stepping stones to Jasmine's birth (E.G the death of Gunn's sister and Wesley's sex life with Lila). How she was dark when acting through Cordelia, most highlighted by her pursuit of Angelus' allegiance and then a freaking heavenly saint when born after which she'd directly contradicted that arc by telling Angel that in her Utopia he could banish Angelus forever makes no sense at all. Those were two completely detached concepts which suggest that it was two different characters/personas.

Then the relationship between "Cordelia" and Connor was disturbing and off putting at least for me to the point where I could not watch them kiss. Jasmine's choice of Connor as her father which I believe was supposed to bring light to the possibility of his conception instead was another detached concept. There was no grounds behind it that said she had to use Connor. Connor has recently occurred to me as being an absolutely unnecessary character to begin with, all he really did was cause bad blood in Angel Investigations and I'm pretty sure only half my dislike of the character is doing the speaking there. In theory Jasmine could have used any male being with Cordelia to conceive herself with.

My guess is that Joss didn't care to make it pretty since it wasn't what he wanted in the first place and Charisma has also stated that she hated it, that season 4 is her least favorite season.

What this also did was basically throw away everything they'd built Cordelia up as since she'd transitioned from BTVS to Angel, everything we grew to respect and value about her. She'd been established as a stronger character who could stand on her own two feet and even on some level as Angel's soul mate. She was there and connected with us from he beginning, the only one other than Angel himself who knew Doyle and had gotten the team through their hardships. So to see her being crumbled this way, like a lump of dirt in Joss's hand is inevitably upsetting.

 

[MarlieTheSlayer]

It's definitely not perfect, but season 4 is my favorite Angel season.
I think because it's so epic. I love the fights with the beast, Angelus and the return of Faith.

 

[Lyri]

There was no grounds behind it that said she had to use Connor.

Yes, there was. Jasmine explained it herself:

Jasmine
But you didn't. It was we who failed you. (stands) We became little more than observers. I could no longer bear to just watch all the suffering. I had to find a way back. But, first I needed a miracle. And so I arranged one. (touches Connor's face) Through you, Angel, through Darla. That is where my parentage began. Two vampires—creatures one human corrupted by darkness. And you with a soul—a miracle already.

ANGEL
But how?

Jasmine
Through Lorne.

LORNE
Huh?

Jasmine
The day Lorne sent Angel and human Darla into the trials to earn a new chance at life.

ANGEL
I failed.

Jasmine
No, you earned that life. And there it is. (points to Connor) All these events unfolded that I might reenter this physical plain. I know there's been chaos.

'Shiny Happy People'

Jasmine needed an impossible birth - a miracle - in ordered to facilitate her own birth - another impossible birth.

Angel completed the Trials and won a new life, one that Darla couldn't use because she was already living her so-called second chance. So Jasmine used that new life in order to bring Connor into the world so that SHE might be brought into the world.

Whether or not Darla ACTUALLY could have been the one to receive the life that Angel won or if Jasmine manipulated the butler dude into telling Darla that she couldn't be saved is another question entirely.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Thank you for the dialogue Lyri but this is where I still see argument in the logic:

Whether or not Darla ACTUALLY could have been the one to receive the life that Angel won or if Jasmine manipulated the butler dude into telling Darla that she couldn't be saved is another question entirely.

As you said, Angel was the one who earned that life so my question is could he have chosen to use it to conceive with someone else? If so Jasmine could have just hijacked that earned life to conceive herself between Angel himself and Cordelia. In theory the child could have been that "Impossible birth" no matter who he conceived with depending on Joss's vampire lore as a male vampire can in some circumstances be able to conceive with a human woman. Look up the term 'Dhampire'.

 

[Lyri]

Again, Jasmine says it herself in the text I just quoted:

TWO VAMPIRES.

That was the point. It HAD to be Angel and Darla. Two dead bodies creating life. It loses something if one of them isn't dead.

 

[YummySushiPJs]

Watching ignorantly, I actually really enjoyed season 4 and the Jasmine storyline, that was before I knew anything about what had gone on behind the scenes, and before I knew Cordelia wouldn't be back in season 5. That put a damper on things.

Even though she wasn't a favourite, Cordelia wouldn't be in my list of favourite characters, I did like her and her presence was very much missed.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

It loses something if one of them isn't dead.

That bit she did NOT say but I do see where you are coming from, the scenario I gave is more of an impossible conception not an impossible birth. Birth and conception are two different things.
There is still a missing element here in the concept, the why. Why an impossible birth and why for that matter Cordelia? Why not Fred? Why not Lilah? She could have turned either of them half demon.