Help me understand the negativity

[Lyri]

There is still a missing element here in the concept, the why. Why an impossible birth

Because that was what it took to get Jasmine's essence to earth. It's the same 'why' as why it was Dawn's blood that opened/closed the portal or why Buffy had to be the one to free the Master or why Angelus was the only one who could awaken Acathla.

The conversation with Skip explains all of that:

SKIP
You really think it stops with her, amigo? You have any concept of how many lines have to intersect in order for a thing like this to play out? How many events have to be nudged in just the right direction? (looks at Lorne) Leaving Pylea. (looks at Gunn) Your sister. (looks at Fred) Opening the wrong book. (looks at Wesley) Sleeping with the enemy. (beat) Gosh, (chuckles) I love a story with scope.

GUNN
No way. We make our own choices.

SKIP
Yeah, sure. Cheese sandwich here, uh, when to floss. But the big stuff, like two vampires squeezing out a kid?

ANGEL
Connor.

WESLEY
An impossible birth to make one possible.

SKIP
That's what the kid was designed for.

LORNE
(chuckles) To sleep with mother love?

ANGEL
To create a vessel.

SKIP
Look out. The monkey's thinking again.

ANGEL
Being inside a human makes it vulnerable, doesn't it? That's why it had to stay hidden. Why it needed to create something stronger to pour itself into.

and why for that matter Cordelia? Why not Fred? Why not Lilah? She could have turned either of them half demon.

It's not just S3 and 4 that you have to look at for the reasons why Cordelia was the one to bring forth Jasmine - for that answer, you how to go back to S1, when Doyle's visions were transferred to Cordelia.

Again, Skip pointed that out:

SKIP
You really think it stops with her, amigo? You have any concept of how many lines have to intersect in order for a thing like this to play out? How many events have to be nudged in just the right direction? (looks at Lorne) Leaving Pylea. (looks at Gunn) Your sister. (looks at Fred) Opening the wrong book. (looks at Wesley) Sleeping with the enemy. (beat) Gosh, (chuckles) I love a story with scope.

Now, whether that was an accident that Jasmine capitalized on or whether she saw an opportunity and took it, we know from Skip that Jasmine chose Cordelia and put everything else into place - sending Cordelia to Pylea proved to her how much of an asset her visions are and made her decide to keep them, even though they were killing her, which in turn made her agree to become part-demon so that she could still have the visions, which made her body strong enough to survive the ascension and to house and protect Jasmine's essence until it could give birth to itself.

An impossible birth (Connor) to create another impossible birth (Jasmine) which the product of the first impossible birth and a human-demon hybrid.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Thanks @Lyri, I need to re-watch the Pylia arc to see what you are pointing out there, it actually happens to be my favorite arc but otherwise it's coming together a bit more for me. But you should know that I don't really trust Skip. In fact I point out several probably manipulated factors in his "guidance" in Birthday in the episode's thread.

 

[Doppelgang]

A thing about season 4 that was good in spite of some of these issues with Cordelia's contrived storyline, whether it be an error or a purposeful thing done by Joss Whedon, was that the episodes form one grand narrative that had been building up during season 3 and built up more to the conclusion in season 4. Rather than a bunch of separate episodes with monster of the week style storylines. You have something more like chapters of a novel, which has you gripped from one chapter to the next. This was done well for the most part I think. You just have to grin and bear some dodgy eye-rolling moments with Cordelia and Connor and try not to get angry at the way in which the Cordelia character is sidelined. That was my way of dealing with it anyway.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

The following quote is from before my first post in this thread but it caught my attention just now and I must respond.

And I love "You're Welcome" - It really showed how fantastic Cordy and Angel were together.

Couldn't agree more. It showed an excellent contrast between how he reacted to loosing Cordelia (via the coma before her actual death) Vs. Buffy that if you pay close attention linked back to James' final dialogue in 'Heartthrob' but I won't get into that as it'll just start an off topic debate. Basically we see in 'You're Welcome' more than ever how much Cordelia meant to Angel and the impact she had on him. I really appreciate that she received proper closure as opposed to leaving her almost being blown up by Connor as our last memory of her.
"Maternal instincts aside I hoped you kicked it's ass" was an amazing line that in itself redeemed her character from the ruins Jasmine left it as.

I still have yet to watch the rest of the fifth season however. I'd originally heard from family it was terrible but recently have learned that among the fandom it's actually quite a popular season. So I'm reconsidering.

 

[Doppelgang]

You're Welcome is redemption all round for Cordelia, for Charisma Carpenter, and for the whole season 4 debacle with her character. Both David Boreanaz and Charisma were breaking down during some of the scenes in it, I think I remember hearing on the commentary for the episode. And for me watching it, it was a case of thinking what could have been. But at the same time just happy to see Cordelia ending back as her good old self. And certainly a "hairs on the back of the neck moment" when he gets the phone call at the end of the episode and then she is gone.

 

[VisionBoy]

Couldn't agree more about "You're Welcome", it was like a massive "Sorry Cordelia fans, hope this makes up for it"... and it did to some extent for me. Did I hear right that Joss originally wanted Buffy for "You're Welcome" and only asked Charisma because SMG wasn't available? And if that is true, does that mean that if Sarah had guest starred, he would've left Cordelia after season 4 entirely? 🙁 Say it aint so.

I actually love season 4, I think it's a very enjoyable season and as many have said here already, a big part of that was due to how epic it was. Some season 4 episodes felt like watching a movie, they had that kind of scale and epicness...epicality... something.

I didn't however like the Jasdelia/Conner story and my main reason is as follows. Lots of people say "But it turned out it wasn't Cordelia, so what's the problem? She was possessed." Well, I get that, but because I watched season 4 as it aired, I obviously didn't know this. Rewatching it with the knowledge actually makes it easier to deal with (though not entirely, because still, ew). Yes it turned out Cordelia was possessed, but by the time we found out, I felt it was too late. I'd already been mentally scarred seeing my favourite character doing the rumpy pumpy with what was basically her surrogate son. If we'd been given more of a hint that she was possessed, it might have been different, but for me, by the time it was revealed "psych, it's not actually her", the damage had been done.

 

[bespangeled]

Season 4 was one of my favorites - or rather had a lot of my favorite episodes. Then the Jasmine arc came along and I wanted to throw a stake through my tv. It was sort of an -it was all a dream-ending. Everything from season one on turned out to be the work of a previously unknown demon with vast power apparently. So no one really made choices - it was all foreordained.

Still dark!Wesley fan here!!

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Everything from season one on turned out to be the work of a previously unknown demon with vast power apparently.

She wasn't a demon, she was a Powers That Be, she was one of the 'people' that they had been working for/with since the start. She was a good guy.

 

[bespangeled]

She wasn't a demon, she was a Powers That Be, she was one of the 'people' that they had been working for/with since the start. She was a good guy.

I was thinking Sahjann - not Jasmine.

 

[VisionBoy]

I've been rewatching season 4 and I actually sort of wish that The Beast was the main big bad... for me it was when the "The Beast has a boss" stuff starts that things really go South. I mean aside from Conner and Cordelia, which is obviously a low in itself, but a low in an otherwise very captivating arc IMO.

I was kind of confused as to how The Beast was part of Jasmine's plan anyway; I didn't really see how anything he did linked to her raison d'etre. Or was it all just a massive distraction tactic?

 

[Mr Trick]

But I am not enamored with the Cordy arc. And mainly because I am so freaking pissed off at Joss Whedon for treating Charisma Carpenter the way he did. I really like Whedon, but this is one instance that I hate. Completely sexist and juvenile. Charisma got pregnant, she didn't tell Joss right away (yes, she should have but she had a miscarriage the year before and was understandably reluctant to tell people right away), and he threw a temper tantrum. First he made Cordy possessed by an evil entity, then made her completely insignificant and impotent the rest of the season (by way of a coma), and then fired her. Pretty despicable.

The same Josh Whedon who is clearly a feminist? Really sexist? I am with you all the way that he was in the wrong in this case (if that side of the story is true of course), but he didn't treat her that way because he is sexist is all I'm saying.

Then in S4 it took different kinds of risks, the scope was epic, the arc was big dark and and convoluted but on the whole I think it really worked. From about 'Apocalypes Nowish' to 'Inside Out' it was really gripping stuff, (and has some of my favourite Angel eps ever in there.) afterwards it kinda falls apart imo.
But a lot of the more 'personel choice/character' risks suck. The whole Cordelia/Conner thing was icky, Conner was one note and annoying, Charisma Carpenter phoning in her performance made her a terrible badguy, and then the whole Jasmine thing...are we really supposed to have any sympathy for this 'higher power' or any doubt that the Angel team didn't do the right thing.
The whole personal 'did we do the right thing' is so forced. And Angel even offers her a f***ing job, the woman who brainwashed/hijacked his girl, and pretty much destroyed her and his son. Urg. 😡

So, yeah, I guess not all risks pay off. When they're good they're good. 🙂

Don't think she was phoning it in, rather she was acting like someone who was being controlled rather than acting on her own.

Joss not only made Cordy evil, but he destroyed everything we loved about her in the process. He had her sleep with Angel's son, basically the worst thing, well...ever. Joss made sure that she hurt Angel in the worst possible way, and ruining any romance they could have had. Joss did the same thing to Spike: he tried to make us hate him by having him try to rape Buffy.

Joss made us hate Cordy because that was easier than giving her the noble death she deserved.

So, yeah, that's why I dislike her storyline in that season.

Don't talk wet!🙄 Don't you want them to try and do edgy things on these shows? The attempted rape thing made sense as a reason for Spike to leave to try and regain his soul. It also blurred the lines between good and bad Spike, and gave the Scoobies a reason to question him more.

 

[thetopher]

S4 works with a continuous watchthrough I thin, instead of week-to-week. It has a good flow and a nice, sweeping arc. Also it's surprisingly funny for such a dark season.
It also has some of my favourite episodes from either show in it.

Imo what Joss Whedon did to Cordelia had little to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her 'messing with his vision for the show' or whatever- that's why he did what he did. Thoughtless/petty? Sure, but its not sexist.

The attempted rape thing made sense as a reason for Spike to leave to try and regain his soul. It also blurred the lines between good and bad Spike, and gave the Scoobies a reason to question him more.

Agreed. Spike was a demon- he loved like one. The audience needed to be reminded of this/show why this couple couldn't work in this way- that they would just destroy each other.
The attempted rape was a way of moving the story forward- the reason it sucks is that the writers weren't skilled enough to depict the aftermath properly- in S6 or in S7. As in- they didn't depict it at all really.

 

[Mr Trick]

S4 works with a continuous watchthrough I thin, instead of week-to-week. It has a good flow and a nice, sweeping arc. Also it's surprisingly funny for such a dark season.
It also has some of my favourite episodes from either show in it.

Imo what Joss Whedon did to Cordelia had little to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her 'messing with his vision for the show' or whatever- that's why he did what he did. Thoughtless/petty? Sure, but its not sexist.



Agreed. Spike was a demon- he loved like one. The audience needed to be reminded of this/show why this couple couldn't work in this way- that they would just destroy each other.
The attempted rape was a way of moving the story forward- the reason it sucks is that the writers weren't skilled enough to depict the aftermath properly- in S6 or in S7. As in- they didn't depict it at all really.

That is fair to say. As I said, it was only S7 when they kind of dropped the ball with Spike. The most interesting storyline with him then was the one wih Robin Wood.