How did you react when Willow killed that Bambi?

[Chosen Enemy]

I don't think it was wrong at all, to be honest. Even if there was a only a one percent chance of Buffy being in hell this was a chance Willow couldn't take and I agree with her.

The mere possibility that Buffy could be in heaven doesn't offset the possibility that she just as well could be in hell. I'd argue that being resurrected after being in heaven is far less worse than being forever stuck in hell.

If I saw Willow considering all that and not just saying, "okay, I'm bringing her back now!" I'd say okay, at least she thought about it first. But she didn't. She just jumped into the pool and did it, without thinking twice. She could have find out where Buffy was. There are ways (in the fantasy world). The problem is, she didn't think! She just did it. Because SHE wanted it. Even though everybody told her it's wrong.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

No, the guy in your avatar helped Dawn and then loudly whined about "Magic always has consequences" when the rest dared not include him in the resurrection. Willow merely gave a book of spells to Dawn, without thinking Dawn would be stupid enough to try them on her own.

Willow gave a book of the most infamous, dangerous resurrection spells to a 15 year old who has just lost her mother and KNOWS that it is possible to bring her back in some form. Possibly one of the most reckless things she ever did.
Whether or not Spike was helping, Dawn was going to take that book and DO something with it. Not saying I think it was a fantastic idea on Spike's part to help her out but hey, at least his doing so lead to the knowledge that if anything went wrong she could rip Joyce's photo to undo it. So, effectively, his involvement lead to damage control.

PS- sorry for going off topic, just wanted to address this point.

 

[Icarium]

If I saw Willow considering all that and not just saying, "okay, I'm bringing her back now!" I'd say okay, at least she thought about it first. But she didn't.

Yes, she did:

WILLOW: Her body, yeah. But her soul ... her essence ... I mean, that could be somewhere else. She could be trapped, in-in some sort of hell dimension like Angel was. (tearfully) Suffering eternal torment, just because she saved us, and I'm not gonna let ... I'm not gonna leave her there. (intensely) It's Buffy.

Emphasis mine.

She could have find out where Buffy was. There are ways (in the fantasy world).

Yes and when the writer wants to some things are made impossible in a fantasy world. Nobody in the show raises the possibility of Willow checking first. And I know Angel did it on that other show but it operated with different rules quite often. For instance Glory needed the Key to get her dimension while Fred's professor was quite routinely sending people to other dimension, Wofram and hart is the Big Bad to end all Big Bads, yet it doesn't have a Sunnydale clone, The Powers that Be aren't mentioned in Buffy, etc.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Yes, she did:

WILLOW: Her body, yeah. But her soul ... her essence ... I mean, that could be somewhere else. She could be trapped, in-in some sort of hell dimension like Angel was. (tearfully) Suffering eternal torment, just because she saved us, and I'm not gonna let ... I'm not gonna leave her there. (intensely) It's Buffy.

Emphasis mine.



Yes and when the writer wants to some things are made impossible in a fantasy world. Nobody in the show raises the possibility of Willow checking first. And I know Angel did it on that other show but it operated with different rules quite often. For instance Glory needed the Key to get her dimension while Fred's professor was quite routinely sending people to other dimension, Wofram and hart is the Big Bad to end all Big Bads, yet it doesn't have a Sunnydale clone, The Powers that Be aren't mentioned in Buffy, etc.

As I said, she could have checked first, fantasy world or not. She didn't bother doing it. And the result is, very unhappy Buffy. She didn't say in those lines something like: "But IF she was in heaven, I'd be doing a horrible thing to her". She just went one way, without thinking twice. Even if she knew there was another possibility, she didn't stop to think about it and what it would mean to Buffy. She just saw one side of it and went with it.

 

[Seeing Red]

First off Bambi was the name of the fawn in the movie Bambi not the name of baby deer. A baby deer is called a fawn. Sorry, I just started cracking up when I saw that.

What are your thoughts on that? How did you react when you saw Willow killing the Bambi? Was she still the good girl anymore, in your eyes?

I did not see any problems with what she did. She thought her best friend was in a hell demension and she was willing to do ANYTHING to get her out. I actually admire Willow even more for that type of dedication that she showed Buffy.
After I saw it I was like, Huh thats new. I also was just wondering what it was going to be used for. Why would it make me see her as "bad" just because she killed a deer? I know a lot of people who hunt, I don't see them as "bad". She killed it in the name of a good cause so I feel that it was justified.

 

[Icarium]

As I said, she could have checked first, fantasy world or not.

Repeating that argument doesn't make it any more convincing. Why not claim that say Giles and Jenny could have checked to see if Angel's curse might not have a loophole before he lost his soul in Innocence? Or that Willow could have done a spell to unmask Ben as Glory long before The Gift? Or that Willow could do a spell and kill all vampires and demons in the world but she doesn't do it because she can't be bothered to?

She didn't say in those lines something like: "But IF she was in heaven, I'd be doing a horrible thing to her".

That's because the moronic writers wanted the heaven twist to be a surprise. Plus, you know, one would expect the pulling out of heaven thing to be impossible. As it is, the resurrection thing had the hilarious implications that Willow is stronger than the gods, angels or whatever entities happen to rule to the heavenly dimensions. And it's not as if Buffy had been yearning for heaven or anything, she died at the ripe old age of 20. Unless we assume heaven is a one time offer, Willow just gave her more years of life. I just can't twist my mind around the idea of this being a bad thing.

 

[xfivebyfive]

Willow had no way of knowing that Buffy was happy. I don't understand how you can call her selfish for wanting to help her friend. Her intentions were good. Even if she turned out to be wrong.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Repeating that argument doesn't make it any more convincing. Why not claim that say Giles and Jenny could have checked to see if Angel's curse might not have a loophole before he lost his soul in Innocence? Or that Willow could have done a spell to unmask Ben as Glory long before The Gift? Or that Willow could do a spell and kill all vampires and demons in the world but she doesn't do it because she can't be bothered to?



That's because the moronic writers wanted the heaven twist to be a surprise. Plus, you know, one would expect the pulling out of heaven thing to be impossible. As it is, the resurrection thing had the hilarious implications that Willow is stronger than the gods, angels or whatever entities happen to rule to the heavenly dimensions. And it's not as if Buffy had been yearning for heaven or anything, she died at the ripe old age of 20. Unless we assume heaven is a one time offer, Willow just gave her more years of life. I just can't twist my mind around the idea of this being a bad thing.

When it comes to life and death, yes, they should check. Otherwise, it's a slip, that leads to bad things. The writers decided that they don't check. But on the show, they should have and Willow should have before doing something VERY dangerous. It's very careless of her. She rushed into it without thinking about the consequences. As Spike said, there are always consequences, and he's right. Giles said that too. Willow shouldn't have done that spell that could have terrible results, not before looking deep into it. It was really stupid of her. She could have killed them and and cause chaos. Not me saying that, Giles is. All these not a bad thing? Willow might be powerful. But she wasn't smart doing that:

GILES
(sadly, quiet)
You're a very stupid girl.

Beat. Willow blinks, re-grouping ...


WILLOW
What? Giles ...


GILES
Do you have any idea what you've
done? The forces you've harnessed?
The lines you've crossed?


WILLOW
I thought you'd be ...
(swallows)
...impressed, or something.


GILES
Oh, don't worry, you've made a
deep impression. Of everyone
here - you were the one I trusted
most to respect the forces of nature.


WILLOW
Are you saying you don't trust me?


GILES
Think what you've done to Buffy.


WILLOW
I brought her back!


GILES
At incredible risk.


WILLOW
Risk? Of what? Making her deader?


GILES
Killing us all. Unleashing a hell on
Earth. Shall I go on?


WILLOW
No! Giles, I did what I had to do.
I did what nobody else could do.


GILES
Oh, there are others in the world
who can do what you did. You
just don't want to meet them.


WILLOW
Okay, probably not - but they're bad
guys. I am not a bad guy. I brought
Buffy back to the world and maybe
the word you should be looking for
is "congratulations."


GILES
Having Buffy back in the world
makes me feel indescribably
wonderful - but I wouldn't
congratulate you if you jumped
off a cliff and happened to survive.


WILLOW
That's not what I did, Giles!


GILES
You were lucky.


WILLOW
I wasn't lucky, I was amazing.
How would you know anyway?
You weren't even there.


GILES
(almost yelling)
If I had been I'd have bloody well
stopped you! The Magicks you
channeled are more primal and
ferocious than you can hope to
understand, and you're lucky to
be alive, you rank, arrogant amateur.

Beat. Giles is done. Willow flatlines, total calm, staring into his eyes. Then:


WILLOW
You're right. The Magicks I used are
incredibly powerful. I'm incredibly powerful.
(beat)
And maybe it's not such a good idea
for you to piss me off.

Was that really a good idea?

---------- Post added at 12:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 PM ----------

Willow had no way of knowing that Buffy was happy. I don't understand how you can call her selfish for wanting to help her friend. Her intentions were good. Even if she turned out to be wrong.

See, I don't see it like that. I think she wanted Buffy back because SHE wanted Buffy back, NO MATTER WHAT. She needed her, she missed her. She didn't think that Buffy might be happy and she should let her be happy.

 

[xfivebyfive]

It wasn't about Willow. Of course they all wanted their friend back, but Willow believed she was in hell. There is no proof in the show that she believed otherwise. It wasn't selfish of her to try to save her friend who had died. As far as any of them knew Buffy could have been in hell, we all know that she was in heaven, but Willow did not.

I will never understand blaming Willow for bringing Buffy back. Her friend was dead. She was trying to bring her back. How is this wrong? The only reason people blame willow is because Buffy was depressed for the entired season.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

It wasn't about Willow. Of course they all wanted their friend back, but Willow believed she was in hell. There is no proof in the show that she believed otherwise. It wasn't selfish of her to try to save her friend who had died. As far as any of them knew Buffy could have been in hell, we all know that she was in heaven, but Willow did not.

I will never understand blaming Willow for bringing Buffy back. Her friend was dead. She was trying to bring her back. How is this wrong? The only reason people blame willow is because Buffy was depressed for the entired season.

It wasn't wrong just because of Buffy. Check the quote I showed above. Willow risked everyone's lives. Buffy's too. Even if Buffy was in hell, resurrecting her could have done a lot of damadge. There was no guarentee she was going to come back right.

And about the first thing, I'd agree to disagree, because I see it differently than you.

 

[Icarium]

When it comes to life and death, yes, they should check. Otherwise, it's a slip, that leads to bad things. The writers decided that they don't check.

No, as far as I remember it, the writers decided it that was impossible to check. Two very different things.

As Spike said, there are always consequences, and he's right.

The guy who rushed to do a love spell on Drusilla and a resurrection spell for Joyce, you are bringing him as the voice of reason? Really? He doesn't know anything about magic and he is very happy with Buffy being alive, so he should have just shut the hell up. Although, it did make me laugh when he threatened Xander - what was he going to do, bore him to death?

As for Giles, he didn't even know what spell was used, his claim that the whole world might have been in danger is bizarre as this certainly wasn't an issue in say "Forever" and Anya and Tara hadn't raised the issue despite knowing exactly spell Willow would use. Him calling Willow an amateur after never bothering to teach her anything about magic is so hypocritical that it beggars belief. Bringing up such an OOC Giles isn't really proving much. Don't get me wrong, the depiction of S6 Willow almost single-handedly made me hate the show but blaming her for the resurrection is something I will never, ever understand.

 

[Professor Walsh]

The fact that this thread has "that Bambi" in it rather than "that fawn" or "that deer" in the title, goes a long way to show how effective imagery it is to have someone who started out as innocent as Willow did kill an animal that people have grown up with as a symbol of cuteness and innocence. I wonder how we would have viewed this scene had she killed, say, a pig.

And just because I googled "fawn" to make sure I had the spelling right, I have to share the picture I found. The essence of cuteness (at least before I start wondering why it is there, rather than in the wild with it's mother):

 

[WakingNightmare]

Alright, I can't help it, I'm jumping in. Oh, I'll be sorry later. 😛

I think that you need to think of the reasons outside of the show. I know, it sucks to think about the people pulling the strings of the Buffy world but sometimes, it's needed.

Buffy needed to come back. Inside of the show, she didn't, but outside of the show, she really needed to. You can't have Buffy The Vampire Slayer without Buffy herself.

Willow was the most powerful out of all the gang. So, Willow was the one they (The Powers That Be, aka the writers) needed to use for bringing back Buffy even if Willow being comfortable with power is very OOC based on what we've seen with earlier seasons.

In short, blame Joss for not just using some other way to bring Buffy back to life.

(I'm staying in this little cardboard box and nobody's making me leave, not nobody not no how!)

 

[Chosen Enemy]

No, as far as I remember it, the writers decided it that was impossible to check. Two very different things.

Do you have quotes about that?
Willow could have pulled out the wicca board and talk to Buffy. Just an idea. Point is, there are ways.

The guy who rushed to do a love spell on Drusilla and a resurrection spell for Joyce, you are bringing him as the voice of reason? Really? He doesn't know anything about magic and he is very happy with Buffy being alive, so he should have just shut the hell up. Although, it did make me laugh when he threatened Xander - what was he going to do, bore him to death?

Spike made mistakes. He might have learned his mistake after the first time (with Dawn), he learned that trying to bring someone to life is wrong. He was mad at the rest for the thing they did. Spike might not be the smartest, but sometimes he says the right things. He understood what Willow didn't.
Willow helped Dawn before too, with the same thing. And it went wrong. Yet she tried it again with Buffy.

As for Giles, he didn't even know what spell was used, his claim that the whole earth might have been in danger is bizarre as this certainly wasn't an issue in say "Forever" and him calling Willow an amateur after never bothering to teach her anything about magic is so hypocritical that it beggars belief. Bringing up such an OOC Giles isn't really proving much. Don't get me wrong, the depiction of S6 Willow almost single-handedly made me hate the show but blaming her for the resurrection is something I will never, ever understand.

I believe Giles knows what he's talking about. He's been practicing magic way before Willow did. And he knows how bad the results could be. I really don't see it as OOC. I see Wilow OOC. She messed up this season. And if it was't for Giles, she'd destroy the world (yes, Xander was only part of it. Giles put whatever in Willow that made her feel pain of others or something, I didn't really ger that part).
And it doesn't matter that he didn't know what spell it was, he know that those kind of spell can cause such bad things. He's not just saying all that, he knows for sure. We saw what happened with Joyce. And everybody agreed that Willow was doing something wrong. They tried to tell her. Giles was the most honest one and told her how wrong and stupid she was.

 

[Professor Walsh]

I said Bambi because that's more cute, not any other reason

Yes, I understand that. But I doubt you'd have said "the Ursula" had Willow sacrificed an octopus. And that's not merely because "Bambi" is a classic whereas "The Little Mermaid" is a horribly glossed-up version of a fairy-tale that's actually quite creepy.

I find myself thinking of Denis Leary's "No Cure for Cancer":

Red meat, white meat, blue meat, meat-o-****ing-rama. You will eat it. Because not eating meat is a decision. Eating meat is an instinct! Yeah! And I know what it's about. "I don't want to eat the meat because I love the animals. I love the animals." Hey, I love the animals too. I love my doggy. He's so cute. My fluffy little dog.. He's so cute- There's the problem. We only want to save the cute animals, don't we? Yeah. Why don't we just have animal auditions. Line 'em up one by one and interview them individually. "What are you?" "I'm an otter." "And what do you do?" "I swim around on my back and do cute little human things with my hands." "You're free to go." "And what are you?" "I'm a cow." "Get in the ****ing truck, ok pal!" "But I'm an animal." "You're a baseball glove! Get on that truck!" "I'm an animal, I have rights!" "Yeah, here's yer ****ing cousin, get on the ****ing truck, pal!" We kill the cows to make jackets out of them and then we kill each other for the jackets we made out of the cows.

(LOL. I forgot that this quote would end up with rather a lot of asterisks.)

 

[zobothehobo]

My thoughts: Killing the fawn was a terribly sad moment. I cried and clinched my pillow the first time. I couldn't believe what Willow had done. On the other hand, it did prove to me that this resurrection was for real. Willow was serious about doing this. I do kind of wish the Scoobies asked more questions about what it was... but I get there wasn't time for that.

As far as it being selfish, from Tabula Rasa (bolded emphasis mine):
TARA: It's totally not stupid to wonder what it was like for Buffy. But it could have been any one of a zillion heavenly dimensions. All we know is that ... it was a good place and she was happy there.
WILLOW: And we took her away from that. We wrecked it for her.
XANDER: We didn't wreck. We didn't know.
WILLOW: We didn't wanna know. (Tara looks sadly at her) We were so selfish. I was so selfish.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Yes, I understand that. But I doubt you'd have said "the Ursula" had Willow sacrificed an octopus. And that's not merely because "Bambi" is a classic whereas "The Little Mermaid" is a horribly glossed-up version of a fairy-tale that's actually quite creepy.

I find myself thinking of Denis Leary's "No Cure for Cancer":

I used the name everybody knows. In real life too, I say Bambi not a deer. Does it matter? 😀😀

 

[Gum Gnome33]

The fact that this thread has "that Bambi" in it rather than "that fawn" or "that deer" in the title, goes a long way to show how effective imagery it is to have someone who started out as innocent as Willow did kill an animal that people have grown up with as a symbol of cuteness and innocence. I wonder how we would have viewed this scene had she killed, say, a pig.

I would have felt the same way about a pig. I can't watch The Pack.

 

[Professor Walsh]

Aww, but that's a piglet. That said, I am very much of an animal person myself, and also very much opposed to the blackness of magic needed for a human to purposefully bring back the dead in a setting like this one. I'd still say my argument stands, though, I doubt Willow killing, ok - a full grown hyena (nevermind that it would put up rather a fight, I'm just thinking cute factor here - than something that we are conditioned to consider cute.

Chosen Enemy, I am not picking on you for choosing the word "Bambi", quite the contrary. I'm just pointing out that the fact that the choice of animal has a bearing on how we react to a scene like that.

 

[The Unspoken]

My thoughts: Killing the fawn was a terribly sad moment. I cried and clinched my pillow the first time. I couldn't believe what Willow had done. On the other hand, it did prove to me that this resurrection was for real. Willow was serious about doing this. I do kind of wish the Scoobies asked more questions about what it was... but I get there wasn't time for that.

As far as it being selfish, from Tabula Rasa (bolded emphasis mine):
TARA: It's totally not stupid to wonder what it was like for Buffy. But it could have been any one of a zillion heavenly dimensions. All we know is that ... it was a good place and she was happy there.
WILLOW: And we took her away from that. We wrecked it for her.
XANDER: We didn't wreck. We didn't know.
WILLOW: We didn't wanna know. (Tara looks sadly at her) We were so selfish. I was so selfish.

What does that prove? Might as well claim that Xander has an actual hole in his heart (something he says after leaving Anya at the altar). Willow expresses guilt here. She doesn't say that it was possible to find out if Buffy was in a heavenly dimension.