How did you react when Willow killed that Bambi?

[Icarium]

And I see no evidence that they looked for a spell to give Angel his soul back without the happiness clause, so it didn't even phase me that people may think they did that. If the writers wanted us to think they did that, they would have told us they did in some way... even if it was just a passing remark. But they didn't, because the characters didn't do that. Maybe they did in your personal canon that makes the show more enjoyable... but to everyone else, the official canon... they did not.

But that's exactly the point - they didn't. And neither did they say it was possible for the Scoobies to check where Buffy was. It's all speculation.

 

[zobothehobo]

But that's exactly the point - they didn't. And neither did they say it was possible for the Scoobies to check where Buffy was. It's all speculation.

It is always possible to ask a question. It isn't always possible to find the answer... but it is always possible to ask. And in the story that we saw, they didn't even ask.

 

[Icarium]

Neither did they ask whether it's possible to remove the loophole. But assuming the Scoobies never asked neither of these question just because we don't see them do it on screen is pretty much the same as assuming they are a bunch of morons, really. I'd rather not do that.

 

[Professor Walsh]

Then again, I never understood why the writers expected me to feel for Buffy who was depressed because she was alive. I mean, if she is finding it so hard, she can just let a vampire kill her and go back to heaven, what's the big deal? Which is why a part of why I view the resurrection as heroic, not selfish.

If we look at life as the "Big Bad" of Season 6, I find debilitating depression quite a natural topic for the writers to choose as one of the "baddies". Depression doesn't necessarily make sense. I find it very easy to feel sympathy for someone struggling with depression, no matter how small or big their problems may seem to the onlooker.

 

[Tara Maclay]

Honestly, it scared me. It really made me think that what Tara said later was right. Willow was too into the magicks. She needed to back off a bit.

 

[InsaneMystic]

But assuming the Scoobies never asked neither of these question just because we don't see them do it on screen is pretty much the same as assuming they are a bunch of morons, really. I'd rather not do that.

That's, actually, exactly how I see them in Bargaining, a bunch of morons. A selfishly power-crazed moron (Willow), a weak willed moron (Xander), a totally OOC moron (Tara), and a tag-along moron (Anya).

 

[Icarium]

That's, actually, exactly how I see them in Bargaining, a bunch of morons. A selfishly power-crazed moron (Willow), a weak willed moron (Xander), a totally OOC moron (Tara), and a tag-along moron (Anya).

Well, it sort of fits with their characterization in the next two (or three, if you count the comics) seasons, I will give you that. 🙂 But I am trying to look at with it without the benefit of hindsight, otherwise, I might as well proclaim Willow was always a megalomaniac junkie, Buffy a zombie who shirks her duty and ****s serial killers, Giles an abandoner, etc.

If we look at life as the "Big Bad" of Season 6, I find debilitating depression quite a natural topic for the writers to choose as one of the "baddies". Depression doesn't necessarily make sense. I find it very easy to feel sympathy for someone struggling with depression, no matter how small or big their problems may seem to the onlooker.

Buffy had plenty of reasons to be depressed without the heaven nonsense. Bratty sister, detached friends, demeaning job, her father and Giles bailing out on her, Spike, the incredibly boring season. Wait, the last one depressed me, not Buffy. 🙂 Anyway, the heaven thing was a total overkill for me. It felt like the writers didn't care about writing a story, they just wanted to torment Buffy as much as possible. And maybe I am projecting my own feelings but if I knew for sure there was afterlife, I would be freaking ecstatic. Also, in general, when a character is clinically depressed I don't root for them to kill themselves because well, duh. But when the character has already been to heaven and misses it, I can't help but think "If you hate it so much here, go back there". And boy, wasn't it mighty convenient that no bad guy of any considerable power appeared during her year of depression. Because if one had, Buffy would have ended up dead.

 

[The Unspoken]

Here's a thought: if there really was a way of finding out if Buffy was in heaven, and the Scoobies deliberately ignored it, why wasn't this used as a source of conflict? Surely season 6 wouldn't miss an opportunity to heap more misery and despair on its characters, especially Buffy.
The brief discussion in 'Tabula Rasa' is a self-flagellating session and not an admission of actual culpability.

Not that it matters, since there really was no way of finding out. That's why the possibility of Buffy being in a hell dimension is presented as a reason sufficient enough to resurrect her. Willow's choice of words - 'She could be trapped in a hell dimension' - acknowledges the other possibility, that Buffy could also be in heaven. However, this possibility holds no water, since they can't find out if she's in a heavenly dimension.
The dialogue in 'Bargaining' is expository and is obviously not meant to be seen as the first time they discussed it. It speaks for itself that they had spend months researching the matter.

That's, actually, exactly how I see them in Bargaining, a bunch of morons. A selfishly power-crazed moron (Willow), a weak willed moron (Xander), a totally OOC moron (Tara), and a tag-along moron (Anya).

Nope, this argument isn't undermined at all by the fact that you pretty much cherry pick which characters are OOC and which aren't. Not undermined at all...

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I like to form my opinion based on what I know.

I know that I did not see any canonical evidence in the show to support the theory that they did lots of, if any, research.

I don't know that the Scoobies consulted the Watcher's Council for information, or any other texts for that matter. But I don't know that they did not, either.

I know that Willow said they couldn't know, because of the mystical energy. I know that Willow was grieving when she said that and that (as a human being) she is capable of stretching the truth. I know that when she asserted this point, she didn't cite any resources or base her speculation on any specific information.

I know that the Scoobies were grieving as well. If a witch with the power to resurrect a loved one tells somebody that it is imperative that the spell is performed because they can't know the location of the loved one's soul, it is very likely that said person happily accepts this to be true in spite of his/her instincts.

I know that the Scoobies never contacted Giles. Sure, he probably wouldn't have known offhand where Buffy was, but it is not at all ridiculous to assume that he had the resources to find out. I know that in earlier seasons Giles is constantly consulting his library of resources to discover all sorts of ancient truths about mysticism. It is possible that one or more of those texts were back in England with him. Therefore, I know that by not contacting Giles, the Scoobies were not thorough.

I know that Willow admits that they did not want to know were Buffy was in Tabula Rasa. Based on the fact that she said earlier that they could not know, I come to the conclusion that, somewhere along the line, she was dishonest with herself or with the others. That is because I know that both of these statements can not be true.

I know that later in the season, Willow does demonstrate numerous times a marked arrogance when it comes to her abilities in magic. That tells me that it was entirely possible that she thought she could perform the spell successfully regardless of the consequences/challenges, and that she therefore might not have done very much research.

I know that the look on Willow's face when Buffy admits that she was in heaven is enough of an indication for me, personally, that she did not properly research the matter. If she had, I'm sure she would have felt terrible but to me that is a look of not just regret but also guilt. I know you don't have to agree with me.


I put all of these facts together--what I know and don't know--and I conclude that they did not research the matter enough before bringing Buffy back. However, because I know that they are human and they love and miss their friend, I am not at all surprised.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Nope, this argument isn't undermined at all by the fact that you pretty much cherry pick which characters are OOC and which aren't. Not undermined at all...

Because the others aren't? Selfish powercrazed Willow, weak willed Xander, and tag-along Anya isn't all they are, but that's firmly established traits for them. Morons, but morons acting in character.

Life and death violation, magic-solves-everything Tara, however? Not so much. The real moron in this case is the writer. Tara should not have been involved with the rezzing.

 

[Goby]

It was a bit shocking, and so real. I was amazed that Joss made it look so real.

With that said, humans outrank animals. I would sacrifice an animal to save a human. I have no problem with that.

 

[Icarium]

I know that later in the season, Willow does demonstrate numerous times a marked arrogance when it comes to her abilities in magic. That tells me that it was entirely possible that she thought she could perform the spell successfully regardless of the consequences/challenges, and that she therefore might not have done very much research.

We are talking about Willow, the girl who spent five hours preparing to teach Jenny's class. Not doing the research properly for such an important spell would be extremely OOC, IMO.

Because the others aren't? Selfish powercrazed Willow, weak willed Xander, and tag-along Anya isn't all they are, but that's firmly established traits for them. Morons, but morons acting in character.

Willow wasn't powercrazed..yet. And Xander had previously been the member of the group most likely to disagree with Buffy or Giles or whoever happened to be the leader at the time. Anya might be a tag-along but she doesn't court danger, she avoids it. So I still think that the interpretation that they actually did a good thing which sort of backfired for reasons outside of their control fits much better than that of them being deluded morons who rushed into action without thinking. But the latter one fits like a glove for almost everything that happened later in the show, to be fair. 🙂

 

[prophecygrrl]

Life and death violation, magic-solves-everything Tara, however? Not so much. The real moron in this case is the writer. Tara should not have been involved with the rezzing.

I can see Tara not liking the whole thing because I agree she's not that type of person, but at the same time, I can also see Willow talking her into it. She's completely in love with Willow, who at the time is very very determined, powerful, and grieving.

 

[OhWow]

It was just kinda creepy...POOR BAMBI! 🙁

 

[InsaneMystic]

We are talking about Willow, the girl who spent five hours preparing to teach Jenny's class. Not doing the research properly for such an important spell would be extremely OOC, IMO.

That was before super-magic Willow. Why prepare anymore if you can mutter some syllables in fake Latin or Sumerian instead?

Willow wasn't powercrazed..yet.

Oh wasn't she? There was a very natural progression there... Fear Itself > Wild At Heart > Something Blue > Forever > Tough Love > to telepathically ordering around the footsoldier Scoobies while standing on top of the crypt at the start of Bargaining.
(Again, I fail to understand how anyone can think the magic addiction plotline came out of nowhere.)

And Xander had previously been the member of the group most likely to disagree with Buffy or Giles or whoever happened to be the leader at the time.

Neither of which is his best friend from kindergarden. (And let's not forget that little "Boss of us" plaque story. Butt monkey all over again.)

Also, I refer you to episodes like The Zeppo, Restless, and The Replacement. Constantly having to overcome the self-image as the funny, somewhat stupid and mostly useless sidekick - something called a Neelix in another fandom 😉 - definitely is an established trait for Xander. Willow is the one who knows/pretends to know such stuff, so he falls in line and gets the donuts.

Anya might be a tag-along but she doesn't court danger, she avoids it.

Which makes it all the more moronic of her being there.

So I still think that the interpretation that they actually did a good thing which sort of backfired for reasons outside of their control fits much better[...]

I still fail to see any good thing in it, period. It was supremely selfish, absolutely moronic, and not the act of friends.

Seriously, one of Buffy's biggest accomplishments IMO is that she actually managed to forgive the Scoobies for the rezzing. If I had been in Buffy's shoes, I would likely have killed Willow for it, or at least demand that she never shows her face around my house ever again.

I can see Tara not liking the whole thing because I agree she's not that type of person, but at the same time, I can also see Willow talking her into it. She's completely in love with Willow, who at the time is very very determined, powerful, and grieving.

No... Tara wouldn't let herself be talked into doing things she considers wrong. Once again, I cite Forever - and also the most part of S6, too. Indeed, Tara loves Willow, she doesn't just have a pathetic crush on her. She would not give up what she believes in, just because Willow says otherwise. Beneath all her shyness and insecurities, Tara clearly is the strongest and most mature of the bunch, it's ridiculous that she'd be along for the rezzing - it's about as likely as Spike taking a sunbath.

 

[zobothehobo]

Here's a thought: if there really was a way of finding out if Buffy was in heaven, and the Scoobies deliberately ignored it, why wasn't this used as a source of conflict? Surely season 6 wouldn't miss an opportunity to heap more misery and despair on its characters, especially Buffy.

I'm not saying there was a way of finding out and the Scoobies deliberately ignored it. I'm saying they didn't even ask if there was a way to find out. They assumed that Buffy was in hell because of the fact that the portal was bad and that's what killed Buffy. And they didn't question this assumption because they didn't think they could and because they didn't want to know.

And I still honestly cannot believe we're arguing about this. If we were supposed to believe that something as important as the Scoobies trying, actively trying, to figure out where Buffy was happened... we would have been given SOME canonical evidence of it. But we were given none. It is a ridiculous suggestion that we all (viewers of the show) are supposed to assume something happened in the story without ever being told it did or even maybe happened. If that's the case... Xander is allergic to cats. He never says he is or gives any sort of even a hint to that... But I think it could be possible and it would an interesting thing to tag onto his character so.. Xander is now allergic to cats. Allow me to get all annoyed that you didn't come to the same complete non-canonical conclusion.

 

[Icarium]

Oh wasn't she? There was a very natural progression there... Fear Itself > Wild At Heart > Something Blue > Forever > Tough Love > to telepathically ordering around the footsoldier Scoobies while standing on top of the crypt at the start of Bargaining.
(Again, I fail to understand how anyone can think the magic addiction plotline came out of nowhere.)

And I fail to understand what those episodes have to do with the addiction storyline. Wild at Heart? The episode where Willow doesn't do spell on Veruca, nor does she do a love spell on Oz? Something Blue, where the effects of the spell are entirely accidental and an extremely potent spell like "my will be done" is never mentioned again? Gotta marvel at the image of the supposedly megalomaniac Willow who somehow never used a spell that could do just about anything. Forever? Come on now.

Also, I refer you to episodes like The Zeppo, Restless, and The Replacement. Constantly having to overcome the self-image as the funny, somewhat stupid and mostly useless sidekick - something called a Neelix in another fandom - definitely is an established trait for Xander. Willow is the one who knows/pretends to know such stuff, so he falls in line and gets the donuts.

And I refer you to Lovers Walk, The Yoko Factor, Something Blue, etc. Xander is perfectly capable of disagreeing with Willow.

Which makes it all the more moronic of her being there.

Only if you assume that Giles wasn't talking nonsense. If the only danger of the spell was the possibility of it killing Willow, Anya's presence makes perfect sense. Buffy being resurrected would mean less danger for her and Xander. Willow dying is a risk she is willing to take because she doesn't like Willow much. And because she is a total sociopath. 😉

I still fail to see any good thing in it, period. It was supremely selfish, absolutely moronic, and not the act of friends.

I think Buffy saving the town from the biker demons that very night falls into the realm of good things. Or you know, Buffy being alive. Maybe that's just me. I am selfish that way, I prefer my friends to be alive rather than dead.

That was before super-magic Willow. Why prepare anymore if you can mutter some syllables in fake Latin or Sumerian instead?

Because spells don't work that way. Most of them demand research and careful preparation. The idea that Willow would be sloppy with the preparations for a spell to resurrect Buffy is just insane, IMO.

Beneath all her shyness and insecurities, Tara clearly is the strongest and most mature of the bunch

Clearly. No bias here, right? I like Tara but exonerating her and at the same time claiming Willow did a terrible thing is, well, cheating.

 

[BuffyThoughts]

It was ugly, but something ugly was necessary. It was a flashing neon sign saying, "something wrong is happening here."

Perhaps to make a life, magically, we must take a life. Suppose a human sacrifice had been required? Old stories are quite full of that. I remember a Norse legend about an ancient king who had 10 sons. He sacrificed 9 of them, one after another, each sacrificing buying him 10 years of life. He would've sacrificed the tenth and last, but hsi chieftains wouldn't let him, so he died.

 

[InsaneMystic]

And I fail to understand what those episodes have to do with the addiction storyline. Wild at Heart? The episode where Willow doesn't do spell on Veruca, nor does she do a love spell on Oz? Something Blue, where the effects of the spell are entirely accidental and an extremely potent spell like "my will be done" is never mentioned again? Gotta marvel at the image of the supposedly megalomaniac Willow who somehow never used a spell that could do just about anything. Forever? Come on now.

You don't see the recurring theme of "have a problem? try magicking it away" as Willow's first reaction to almost everything there?

Because spells don't work that way. Most of them demand research and careful preparation. The idea that Willow would be sloppy with the preparations for a spell to resurrect Buffy is just insane, IMO.

Yeah, because she would never be so sloppy as to overlook a detail like digging up the coffin beforehand. Oh, wait! 🙄

And most spells demanding research and preparation is pretty heavily in conflict with all the casual magic Willow does... and there's lots of that, even before S6.

Clearly. No bias here, right? I like Tara but exonerating her and at the same time claiming Willow did a terrible thing is, well, cheating.

No, it's saying that Tara is very much out of character in Bargaining. (Which happens to be a major argument of yours re: S6&7 and Spuffy, right? So by your logic, in all those threads, you were cheating to diss everything past S5? 😉 😛)

I think Buffy saving the town from the biker demons that very night falls into the realm of good things. Or you know, Buffy being alive. Maybe that's just me. I am selfish that way, I prefer my friends to be alive rather than dead.

Yes, you are selfish that way. Selfish enough that I'd give having you as a friend a wide berth in a verse where magic exists.

 

[Icarium]

You don't see the recurring theme of "have a problem? try magicking it away" as Willow's first reaction to almost everything there?

No, I don't. "Almost everything" is a "bit" of exaggeration when you have listed just five out of 70 episodes but whatever rocks your boat. If you want to believe Willow is a megalomaniac based on episodes like Fear, Itself, I can't stop you.

And most spells demanding research and preparation is pretty heavily in conflict with all the casual magic Willow does... and there's lots of that, even before S6.

Examples would be helpful.

Yeah, because she would never be so sloppy as to overlook a detail like digging up the coffin beforehand. Oh, wait!

Dramatic license. And further proof that S6 was written by morons, but let's not get distracted.

No, it's saying that Tara is very much out of character in Bargaining. (Which happens to be a major argument of yours re: S6&7 and Spuffy, right? So by your logic, in all those threads, you were cheating to diss everything past S5? )

Hey, I diss most of S5 too. 🙂 Cheating or not, Willow being a total moron is way more OOC than Tara bending her principles for Willow. So insisting that one of those things must have been OOC and the other totally natural looks weird to me.