I don't know about everybody else but Spike is the best partner for Buffy yet.

[WillowFromBuffy]

Souled Angel wants his soul because the soul guilts him about what he could do without it.

I think you are selling Angel awfully short. Speaking of Darla, Angel says that she never had a chance. He, however, had a chance—a chance to experience love, friendship, fatherhood, purpose and to go some way towards making amends. The soul has become a blessing, not a punishment he feels guilted into sticking with.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I think you are selling Angel awfully short. Speaking of Darla, Angel says that she never had a chance. He, however, had a chance—a chance to experience love, friendship, fatherhood, purpose and to go some way towards making amends. The soul has become a blessing, not a punishment he feels guilted into sticking with.

That's the thing. The soul works with Angel because he made the best of a bad situation. He took a negative (being cursed with a soul) and turned it into a positive. Pre-soul Angelus wouldn't want it, post-soul Angel wants to keep it. He did not inflict that situation on himself but he made the most of the situation inflicted on him.

Imagine if Angel got his arm bitten off by a shark. He didn't choose it, didn't want it, but it happened. He laments the loss of his arm for a while but then decides to turn the situation into a positive by using it to teach people about shark safety. Buffy falls in love with Angel because of the good he is doing as a result of that.

Spike decides that if he's to stand any romantic chance with Buffy, he should lose an arm too so he finds a shark and willingly sticks his arm in its mouth so that it will be bitten off. He too can now teach about shark safety which means Buffy will now find him "acceptable" as a potential romantic partner.

Do you see the point I'm trying to make?

 

[white avenger]

Angel comes to see his soul as something other than a curse—a chance to be something better.

Kind of, but not exactly. Angel sees having a soul as an opportunity to somehow atone for past evil deeds (which again seems, to me, to be a contradiction, because he never actually did any of hem.) AngelUS saw the soul as a curse, and he told Faith so. His torture is being to see, and, apparently, experience, everything that Angel does because of his soul.

Spike goes to get his soul without knowing much about what it entails.

Yeah, that's Spike, all the way. He's the fists and fangs guy who jumps blindly into the thick of battle, confident that he's the biggest bad on the block. Going for the soul was almost certainly no different, "Angel got his, now I'm gonna get mine, only it'll be better, because I'm better." so he dives in, punching, kicking, and cussing, and gets what he went for, only to find out, too late, that the prize comes with a cost.

For the record, and this is nowhere in any way substantiated by canon, I think that Spike had been toying with the idea of trying something like this for awhile, or at least he knew enough to be aware that it was possible. Maybe he came across some legend referring to some demons in a cave in Africa while researching for the location of the Gem of Amara, or maybe he just knew someone who knew someone who... Anyhow, my point is, he had to know about the place beforehand, because he got there too quickly to have not known pretty much where to go. What happened in "Seeing Red" was just the catakyst that brought the whole thing to fruition. Without it, he would have still known where to go and what to ask for, but it just didn't seem all that important to him.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Angel sees having a soul as an opportunity to somehow atone for past evil deeds (which again seems, to me, to be a contradiction, because he never actually did any of hem.)

I'd argue this is true up until Reprise. After this, I think Angel sees his soul differently. Because he stops asking the question "why did this happen?" or trying to make sense of this reason/purpose and instead takes up the mantle of - all I have in this life is what my actions are, there is no redemption, there is no atonement, there is only doing good because the act of doing good is the reward itself. And I do think the begins to think of his circumstance, his soul, and of course his mission from that point on.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

That's the thing. The soul works with Angel because he made the best of a bad situation. He took a negative (being cursed with a soul) and turned it into a positive. Pre-soul Angelus wouldn't want it, post-soul Angel wants to keep it. He did not inflict that situation on himself but he made the most of the situation inflicted on him.

No. Angel grows to appreciate that having a soul is actually a good thing. I am not sure if Spike ever gains that certainty. For him, I think it is more of a let down.

Do you see the point I'm trying to make?

Not at all.

For the record, and this is nowhere in any way substantiated by canon, I think that Spike had been toying with the idea of trying something like this for awhile, or at least he knew enough to be aware that it was possible. Maybe he came across some legend referring to some demons in a cave in Africa while researching for the location of the Gem of Amara, or maybe he just knew someone who knew someone who... Anyhow, my point is, he had to know about the place beforehand, because he got there too quickly to have not known pretty much where to go. What happened in "Seeing Red" was just the catakyst that brought the whole thing to fruition. Without it, he would have still known where to go and what to ask for, but it just didn't seem all that important to him.

"Destiny" suggests that Angel also knew of the demon trials. Spike speaks about them as though they were common knowledge among old vampires .

 

[white avenger]

"Destiny" suggests that Angel also knew of the demon trials. Spike speaks about them as though they were common knowledge among old vampires .

I got the impression, though, that, while the trials themselves were fairly common knowledge among the older vampires, the actual location wasn't known, because none ot them really bothered to look for it. After all, why would any self respecting vampire in their right mind ever want a soul? Spike went to the trouble to find out pretty much where to go, and he must have known in advance, because he got there too quickly

 

[thetopher]

I have never liked the idea that the mere presence of a soul makes the character, whether Angel or Spike. a totally new chracter. The only reason for such an idea, as far as I can see, is to somehow give Season 3 Angel a pass for what he did in Season 2.

Apart from, unlike Spike, Angel never, ever uses the soul excuse to get out of any blame from say, former victims. He accepts the guilt for the crimes 'he commited'.

Spike doesn't care because 'he's reformed now'- presumably whilst admiring the coat he took off that victim he killed...

However, within that context, Season 7 Spike i neither a stalker nor an attempted rapist.

Agreed. Nor did he protect Dawn whilst Buffy was dead, nor was he ever in a relationship with Buffy, but he sure likes to act like they still have a 'thing' in S7, doesn't he?

As for giving ensouled Spike credit for any benevolent acts that he might have performed in his soulless state, I have no problem whatsoever in affording the same courtesy to Angelus/Angel, if we ever see any evidence that he actually did perform a benevolent act.

Angelus killed The Beast and saved countless lives in LA by bringing back the sun in the process. Something nobody else- not even Angel- could do. So yeah, that 'good deed' is certainly comparable to anything soulless Spike ever did. He never single-handedly saved a city, nay the world, from eternal darkness.

 

[white avenger]

Apart from, unlike Spike, Angel never, ever uses the soul excuse to get out of any blame from say, former victims. He accepts the guilt for the crimes 'he commited'.

Spike doesn't care because 'he's reformed now'- presumably whilst admiring the coat he took off that victim he killed...

I never saw it as Spike trying to "get out" of blame for the crimes and atrocities of his soulless former existence as it was just accepting the fact that the past is past, and getting on with the good that he could do, rather than dwell on the evil that he had to way of actually correcting.

If Angel chooses to burden himself with past events that can never be corrected, that's his choice. If Spike chooses not to dwell on such things, that is, again, his choice. Neither is any more right or wrong than the other. The important thing, to me at least, is what both vampires choose to do in the future.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Not at all.

Then it appears we are at an impasse. Basically the reason why Spike goes to get a soul are too Buffy orientated and he never should've gone to get one in my view.

 

[one eyed chicklet]

I enjoyed Spike as a character more, as he actually seemed to have a personality, unlike Angel, in my opinion. But to be fair I did start to like Angel on his own show.
I knew the whole soulless Spike and Buffy thing was going to go bad quickly due to their different expectations of the relationship, disturbing lack of consent, emotional abuse and physical abuse. After he got his soul back, he let Buffy take the reins in the relationship, I think in general he offered something different for Buffy.Spike and Buffy was more appealing to me but I wouldn't say it was the better relationship.

 

[thetopher]

I never saw it as Spike trying to "get out" of blame for the crimes and atrocities of his soulless former existence as it was just accepting the fact that the past is past

Whilst simultaneously taking credit for the good and calling out when people have treated him badly in the past. It's a complete hypocrisy that he holds other people- namely Buffy and Angel to a standard that he himself rejects.

He says that Buffy used him, he says that Angel made him a monster? So what? The past is the past and can't be changed but Spike wants acknowledgement when he has been wronged but never cares about those he has wronged.

If Spike had turned up in S7 and never brought up anything about the past- good or bad (because it no longer really matters)- I might actually respect him But- as always- he makes his own rules to suit himself.

rather than dwell on the evil that he had to way of actually correcting.

Spike has several opportunities to lessen the pain he has caused whilst soulless at various points in S7, he just doesn't bother.

If Angel chooses to burden himself with past events that can never be corrected, that's his choice. If Spike chooses not to dwell on such things, that is, again, his choice.

Sure, one is interesting, indicating an introspective nature that is full of humanity and empathy and the other indicates a type of psychopathy.

 

[white avenger]

Sure, one is interesting, indicating an introspective nature that is full of humanity and empathy and the other indicates a type of psychopathy.

Well, we both seem to agree on something anyway.

We just don't seem to agree on which vampire is full of humanity and empathy, and which one is a psycho.

Partial agreement is better than total disagreement, I always say.

 

[vznspike]

In my opinion, if I am going to completely honest, Buffy didn't deserve Spike, soul or no soul, he was always utterly devoted to the object of his affection, even as a human.

Buffy never really let anyone in after Angel and no matter how hard they tried or how deserving of her respect, she was just emotionally distant, damaged by the heartbreak of her first love.

Spike was fully devoted to her and I can see where a lot of people say that Spike lost his own identity by fall for Buffy. I see it as being spot on brand for the character though, as he says himself he's love bitch and man enough to admit it, so even way before Spuffy was a thing we already knew what he was, I mean we saw him with Dru, he needs to direct that and no one can deny his chemistry with Buffy since his first appearance in School Hard.

If you didn't have Spike in love you don't have 100% Spike, so most of us were delighted that they kept him on the show so who else would you pair him with? Willow? Gay, Anya? She was with Xander and she was the only one that I would said to actually be his friend, Dawn? don't even go there, so Buffy was the obvious choice, between the chemistry shared, they always had strong feelings for each other even if it was hate and disgust at the start.

But she never batted an eye at everything he done for her, most of the time knowing that there was very little chance of any kind of acknowledgement or gratitude. She didn't deserve someone so unspeakably devoted and selfless towards her.

The only gratification I get out of Spuffy is in the last three episodes of S7 when she finally drops a few barriers towards him, which she should have dropped all when he nearly died, not for her, for Dawn when Glory tortured him. If he didn't deserve to be let in then, after going through that, even without a soul, for me that's proof enough of the reality of his feelings, give the guy a break.

 

[Puppet]

In my opinion, if I am going to completely honest, Buffy didn't deserve Spike, soul or no soul, he was always utterly devoted to the object of his affection, even as a human.

Buffy never really let anyone in after Angel and no matter how hard they tried or how deserving of her respect, she was just emotionally distant, damaged by the heartbreak of her first love.

Spike was fully devoted to her and I can see where a lot of people say that Spike lost his own identity by fall for Buffy. I see it as being spot on brand for the character though, as he says himself he's love bitch and man enough to admit it, so even way before Spuffy was a thing we already knew what he was, I mean we saw him with Dru, he needs to direct that and no one can deny his chemistry with Buffy since his first appearance in School Hard.

If you didn't have Spike in love you don't have 100% Spike, so most of us were delighted that they kept him on the show so who else would you pair him with? Willow? Gay, Anya? She was with Xander and she was the only one that I would said to actually be his friend, Dawn? don't even go there, so Buffy was the obvious choice, between the chemistry shared, they always had strong feelings for each other even if it was hate and disgust at the start.

But she never batted an eye at everything he done for her, most of the time knowing that there was very little chance of any kind of acknowledgement or gratitude. She didn't deserve someone so unspeakably devoted and selfless towards her.

The only gratification I get out of Spuffy is in the last three episodes of S7 when she finally drops a few barriers towards him, which she should have dropped all when he nearly died, not for her, for Dawn when Glory tortured him. If he didn't deserve to be let in then, after going through that, even without a soul, for me that's proof enough of the reality of his feelings, give the guy a break.

No offence intended, but posts like yours are the reason I'm afraid to admit I ship Spuffy, cause I don't want other fans to think I think like this...

 

[DeadlyDuo]

which she should have dropped all when he nearly died, not for her, for Dawn when Glory tortured him. If he didn't deserve to be let in then, after going through that, even without a soul, for me that's proof enough of the reality of his feelings, give the guy a break.

It always pissed me off when Buffy kissed him on the lips after he was tortured by Glory. She knew how he felt about her and had been telling him quite clearly to leave her alone, yet she then goes and does that. Talk about mixed messages. You don't kiss someone on the lips as a thank you, especially if you know they have feelings for you. On the cheek possibly, but never on the lips.

It was painful to watch the mutually destructive relationship between them in Season 6 because it made them both miserable. It was always going to end badly, and as much as I hate the AR scene, there is an inevitability about it. Their relationship had no boundaries including the fact no didn't always mean no (Buffy would say one thing then do the complete opposite about a scene or two later), it was just one big mess. Had there been clearer boundaries set, things might not have gone badly as it did.

I'm a Sprusilla fan and always will be, and I definitely think Spike should've stayed with Dru. He was much happier with her and I like the fact that, despite being evil vampires, they stayed together for over a century.

The only positive thing I can say about Spuffy is at least it didn't try and pretend to be something it's not, unlike Briley. Briley liked to pretend it was this wholesome relationship when in actuality Riley showed some "red flag" behaviour in regards to Buffy.

 

[white avenger]

Buffy never really let anyone in after Angel and no matter how hard they tried or how deserving of her respect, she was just emotionally distant, damaged by the heartbreak of her first love.

Buffy and Spike in Seasons 10 and 11 of the Dark Horse series were truly close, to the point that, they were, apparently, openly living together, to the knowledge and approval (or at least acceptance) of her friends. (I know, some people have trouble accepting the comics as canon, or ignore them entirely, but they had Joss' endorsement as being part of the ongoing story.) That's about as open and close as she could get, in my opinion, barring actual marriage.

 

[brinkster130]

In my opinion, if I am going to completely honest, Buffy didn't deserve Spike, soul or no soul, he was always utterly devoted to the object of his affection, even as a human.

Buffy never really let anyone in after Angel and no matter how hard they tried or how deserving of her respect, she was just emotionally distant, damaged by the heartbreak of her first love.

Spike was fully devoted to her and I can see where a lot of people say that Spike lost his own identity by fall for Buffy. I see it as being spot on brand for the character though, as he says himself he's love bitch and man enough to admit it, so even way before Spuffy was a thing we already knew what he was, I mean we saw him with Dru, he needs to direct that and no one can deny his chemistry with Buffy since his first appearance in School Hard.

If you didn't have Spike in love you don't have 100% Spike, so most of us were delighted that they kept him on the show so who else would you pair him with? Willow? Gay, Anya? She was with Xander and she was the only one that I would said to actually be his friend, Dawn? don't even go there, so Buffy was the obvious choice, between the chemistry shared, they always had strong feelings for each other even if it was hate and disgust at the start.

But she never batted an eye at everything he done for her, most of the time knowing that there was very little chance of any kind of acknowledgement or gratitude. She didn't deserve someone so unspeakably devoted and selfless towards her.

The only gratification I get out of Spuffy is in the last three episodes of S7 when she finally drops a few barriers towards him, which she should have dropped all when he nearly died, not for her, for Dawn when Glory tortured him. If he didn't deserve to be let in then, after going through that, even without a soul, for me that's proof enough of the reality of his feelings, give the guy a break.

But wouldn't you want Spike to find someone who was more of an equal? Someone who cared for, respected, and wanted him in the same way he wanted them?
I get what you are saying about Buffy not taking Spike as serious as he'd hoped (at times) but, don't you think that is just because she just wasn't as into him as he was her? I guess I just don't understand the deserved aspect of it that you mention. IMO, it isn't about someone earning something, there is either a connection or their isn't. And with Buffy and Spike they didn't seem to be on the same page at the same time in regards to that connection.

 

[Btvs fan]

It always pissed me off when Buffy kissed him on the lips after he was tortured by Glory. She knew how he felt about her and had been telling him quite clearly to leave her alone, yet she then goes and does that. Talk about mixed messages. You don't kiss someone on the lips as a thank you, especially if you know they have feelings for you. On the cheek possibly, but never on the lips.

It was painful to watch the mutually destructive relationship between them in Season 6 because it made them both miserable. It was always going to end badly, and as much as I hate the AR scene, there is an inevitability about it. Their relationship had no boundaries including the fact no didn't always mean no (Buffy would say one thing then do the complete opposite about a scene or two later), it was just one big mess. Had there been clearer boundaries set, things might not have gone badly as it did.

I'm a Sprusilla fan and always will be, and I definitely think Spike should've stayed with Dru. He was much happier with her and I like the fact that, despite being evil vampires, they stayed together for over a century.

The only positive thing I can say about Spuffy is at least it didn't try and pretend to be something it's not, unlike Briley. Briley liked to pretend it was this wholesome relationship when in actuality Riley showed some "red flag" behaviour in regards to Buffy.

Lovers Walk Angel "lot of trouble for someone who doesn't even care about you, she really is just kind of fickle"

Dru never really loved Spike. She left him again after this for a fungus Demon.
We even see in Darla on Ats that she only picked him because he was the first person that came along.

The multiple affairs with Angelus, The Immortal and probably others, show that.

Like I said before even if he had gone off with her in Crush, she probably would've left him again soon after.

Regards Buffy (though I know I'm quoting your post back to front, apologies) kissing Spike. She's always been attracted to Spike (not that she ever followed through before this because obvious reasons) but its always been there and she was genuinely touched and grateful for what he did.


With Spike and his motivation, how does it explain him helping out Tara, in Family or helping the disaster victim in Triangle , quite literally after Buffy called him disgusting and had left.
In both cases Spike had no incentive to help 🤔

 

[Bluebird]

It's really tiresome that the go to defense of Spike is to attack Angel. Is there no other way to show off why you like your ship other than it's not that boring Angel guy? That reflects back on a flimsy argument. I want convinced too, and telling me one of my favourite characters is rubbish and boring and a pedo isn't gonna cut it. Tell me why Spike is good for Buffy?

Not all Spuffy fans of course - I love some of the posts by our members, but this thread is particularly egregious.

 

[vznspike]

It always pissed me off when Buffy kissed him on the lips after he was tortured by Glory. She knew how he felt about her and had been telling him quite clearly to leave her alone, yet she then goes and does that. Talk about mixed messages. You don't kiss someone on the lips as a thank you, especially if you know they have feelings for you. On the cheek possibly, but never on the lips.

It was painful to watch the mutually destructive relationship between them in Season 6 because it made them both miserable. It was always going to end badly, and as much as I hate the AR scene, there is an inevitability about it. Their relationship had no boundaries including the fact no didn't always mean no (Buffy would say one thing then do the complete opposite about a scene or two later), it was just one big mess. Had there been clearer boundaries set, things might not have gone badly as it did.

I'm a Sprusilla fan and always will be, and I definitely think Spike should've stayed with Dru. He was much happier with her and I like the fact that, despite being evil vampires, they stayed together for over a century.

The only positive thing I can say about Spuffy is at least it didn't try and pretend to be something it's not, unlike Briley. Briley liked to pretend it was this wholesome relationship when in actuality Riley showed some "red flag" behaviour in regards to Buffy.

I loved Sprusilla as well, they were goofy and happy and really loved each other, I think though, if Spike had had the choice he would have stayed with her alright, but in the end it wasn't him who decided to end it, she dumped him, end of his happiness unfortunately.

Don't get me started on Briley, I didn't care for any and every scene of it and didn't care Riley himself, glad they got rid of him, it wasn't soon enough...

Spuffy well, unfortunatly that kind of relationship happens more in real life that we are proud to admit, if you take the violence of it down a notch and take it to a metaphorical level, not 2 super beings actually whipping each others backsides, and turn it into just regular 2 people arguing, an awful lot of that happens in reality, even without getting into physical fights. So I found it interesting that they explore that kind of relationship in the show and that if given enough thought and if the feelings are real behind it maybe, sometimes, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, that's why Spuffy is a good thing IMO