I don't know about everybody else but Spike is the best partner for Buffy yet.

[Btvs fan]

It's really tiresome that the go to defense of Spike is to attack Angel. Is there no other way to show off why you like your ship other than it's not that boring Angel guy? That reflects back on a flimsy argument. I want convinced too, and telling me one of my favourite characters is rubbish and boring and a pedo isn't gonna cut it. Tell me why Spike is good for Buffy?

Not all Spuffy fans of course - I love some of the posts by our members, but this thread is particularly egregious.

Spuffy fans have been called serial killer lovers who have rape fantasies, on these very message boards. So don't be surprised if people give some back in kind.

But you're right that a lot of insults are flying about which goes to far. I'm as guilty as much as anyone else. End of the day, we all are arguing over 2 fictional relationships on TV show that ended 16 years ago. 15 if you count Ats. Like Spike says in TGIQ we are all like a bunch of hen pecked teenagers

 

[Bluebird]

Spuffy fans have been called serial killer lovers who have rape fantasies, on these very message boards. So don't be surprised if people give some back in kind.

I'm not talking about the fans slinging insults, I'm talking about the basic argument used why Spike is better for Buffy. If the argument is framed in a way you are attacking someone else ie Angel the character, rather than showing the positives of your own opinion, then that is a faulty argument. It happens a lot in politics too and it's shallow and pointless.

But she never batted an eye at everything he done for her, most of the time knowing that there was very little chance of any kind of acknowledgement or gratitude. She didn't deserve someone so unspeakably devoted and selfless towards her.

The only gratification I get out of Spuffy is in the last three episodes of S7 when she finally drops a few barriers towards him, which she should have dropped all when he nearly died, not for her, for Dawn when Glory tortured him. If he didn't deserve to be let in then, after going through that, even without a soul, for me that's proof enough of the reality of his feelings, give the guy a break.

Surely a relationship is a 2 way street and not cos one deserves the other? I understand if you see the reciprocation but I can't get on board with this line of thinking, that he deserves her because he loves her so much. I would not like to feel obliged to be in a relationship because of how much I should owe them because of their devotion. That's not really how healthy relationships work, in my opinion.

 

[vznspike]

Surely a relationship is a 2 way street and not cos one deserves the other? I understand if you see the reciprocation but I can't get on board with this line of thinking, that he deserves her because he loves her so much. I would not like to feel obliged to be in a relationship because of how much I should owe them because of their devotion. That's not really how healthy relationships work, in my opinion.

Not saying that they should be in relationship just because he is in love with her, she doesn't feel the same way obviously, but that doesn't give her the right to kick him around like a dog, he deserves her respect and the way she treats him through S5 and S6 is everything but respectful. The relationship would have been healthy as co workers and friends even if his feelings weren't returned if there had been an acceptance of the way he felt about her and wasn't used only for selfish purposes

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

The relationship would have been healthy as co workers and friends even if his feelings weren't returned if there had been an acceptance of the way he felt about her and wasn't used only for selfish purposes

All evidence seem to suggest otherwise.

 

[Btvs fan]

Not saying that they should be in relationship just because he is in love with her, she doesn't feel the same way obviously, but that doesn't give her the right to kick him around like a dog, he deserves her respect and the way she treats him through S5 and S6 is everything but respectful. The relationship would have been healthy as co workers and friends even if his feelings weren't returned if there had been an acceptance of the way he felt about her and wasn't used only for selfish purposes

S5 is interesting because Buffy is a bit all over the place regard Spike.
For example in Crush she berates Dawn for going to Spike's crypt yet only 2 episodes previously had taken Dawn and her mother to him herself 🤷‍♂️
Earlier in the episode Spikes point about him there fighting the fight is dismissed that he was sleeping the sleep knocked unconscious, which completely ignores the point that he was knocked unconscious fighting the fight.
In IWMTLY she tells Spike to get away from her then is p!$$ed he was chatting up April.
I don't know if it because of differing writers and there views but in universe I choose to think it's Buffy and her how she thinks about Spike and how she feels shes meant to think about him.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Lovers Walk Angel "lot of trouble for someone who doesn't even care about you, she really is just kind of fickle"

Dru never really loved Spike. She left him again after this for a fungus Demon.
We even see in Darla on Ats that she only picked him because he was the first person that came along.

The multiple affairs with Angelus, The Immortal and probably others, show that.

Like I said before even if he had gone off with her in Crush, she probably would've left him again soon after.

Originally Lovers Walk was supposed to feature both Spike and Dru in the middle of a lovers tiff but JL was unavailable.

Lovers Walk is probably the first time Dru actually left Spike hence why he took it so badly. She left because she saw Spike's truce with Buffy as a betrayal. Spike didn't do it primarily to save the world, he did it to protect Dru. Buffy wanted to kill her but as he said "There's no deal without Dru."

Dru didn't see it that way, however she did take him back. The line about the fungus demon was a throwaway line to explain why Spike was in Season 4 but Dru wasn't. However, it's such a throwaway line that there's a misconception that Spike was unsuccessful at the end of Lovers Walk when he wasn't, much like it's a misconception that Dru ditched Spike for Angelus when he was back on the scene in Season 2. She didn't, she was sleeping with BOTH men.

Aside from Angelus and the Immortal (though there is a suggestion that the immortal may have some magic effect on women), I think Dru was pretty faithful to Spike. I've said before that there are underlying issues with the ANgelus/Dru dynamic where I think Angelus trained her to respond in that way to him. Notice how Spike doesn't blame her for what she does with Angelus yet is quick to call her out when he catches her kissing a chaos demon.

Their break up was retconned to be all about Buffy. Now it could be argued that since the break up flashback is shown in Season 5, that it is the Dawnverse affecting Spike's memory of the event. However I prefer to go with the Lovers Walk canon.

With Spike and his motivation, how does it explain him helping out Tara, in Family or helping the disaster victim in Triangle , quite literally after Buffy called him disgusting and had left.
In both cases Spike had no incentive to help 🤔

Spike wanted to look good for Buffy in Triangle, she calls him out on wanting praise for not feeding off a disaster victim (which to be fair to him, the smell of blood was probably sending his senses running wild).

With Tara, I think that was just him ending the debate over whether Tara was demon or not because he was bored of it.

I loved Sprusilla as well, they were goofy and happy and really loved each other, I think though, if Spike had had the choice he would have stayed with her alright, but in the end it wasn't him who decided to end it, she dumped him, end of his happiness unfortunately.

I agree. They had to get Spike on the show somehow though. I wish they had kept Sprusilla together, it's just funny that a pair of evil vampires can maintain a long term relationship better than any of the scoobies could.

Don't get me started on Briley, I didn't care for any and every scene of it and didn't care Riley himself, glad they got rid of him, it wasn't soon enough...

Riley is a contradictory character. They either needed to go with the nice college guy persona or make him older and go with the experienced elite soldier persona. Both don't really mesh because of the illogic.

Not saying that they should be in relationship just because he is in love with her, she doesn't feel the same way obviously, but that doesn't give her the right to kick him around like a dog

I agree. The scoobies don't have to like Spike but there's nothing wrong with at least being civil, especially as he is a member of the team. Manners cost nothing. It's only Dawn, Joyce and Anya who are at least civil to Spike and the fact he's nice back in return because of it says a lot. The scoobies are Spike's social circle because he's persona non grata with the majority of the demon community, it's why I think he puts up with the treatment. Season 6 is the worst though as Spike isn't even treated as a person but a "thing" which even he complains to Anya about.

 

[white avenger]

vznspike As much as I tried cant get the comics anywhere =S


Regarding back issues of Dark Horse "Buffy" and "Angel" comics, you might try Things From Another Planet. Their website often has back issues or library type copies of hese things.

 

[Btvs fan]

Originally Lovers Walk was supposed to feature both Spike and Dru in the middle of a lovers tiff but JL was unavailable.

Lovers Walk is probably the first time Dru actually left Spike hence why he took it so badly. She left because she saw Spike's truce with Buffy as a betrayal. Spike didn't do it primarily to save the world, he did it to protect Dru. Buffy wanted to kill her but as he said "There's no deal without Dru."

Dru didn't see it that way, however she did take him back. The line about the fungus demon was a throwaway line to explain why Spike was in Season 4 but Dru wasn't. However, it's such a throwaway line that there's a misconception that Spike was unsuccessful at the end of Lovers Walk when he wasn't, much like it's a misconception that Dru ditched Spike for Angelus when he was back on the scene in Season 2. She didn't, she was sleeping with BOTH men.

Aside from Angelus and the Immortal (though there is a suggestion that the immortal may have some magic effect on women), I think Dru was pretty faithful to Spike. I've said before that there are underlying issues with the ANgelus/Dru dynamic where I think Angelus trained her to respond in that way to him. Notice how Spike doesn't blame her for what she does with Angelus yet is quick to call her out when he catches her kissing a chaos demon.

Their break up was retconned to be all about Buffy. Now it could be argued that since the break up flashback is shown in Season 5, that it is the Dawnverse affecting Spike's memory of the event. However I prefer to go with the Lovers Walk canon.



Spike wanted to look good for Buffy in Triangle, she calls him out on wanting praise for not feeding off a disaster victim (which to be fair to him, the smell of blood was probably sending his senses running wild).

With Tara, I think that was just him ending the debate over whether Tara was demon or not because he was bored of it.



Riley is a contradictory character. They either needed to go with the nice college guy persona or make him older and go with the experienced elite soldier persona. Both don't really mesh because of the illogic.



I agree. The scoobies don't have to like Spike but there's nothing wrong with at least being civil, especially as he is a member of the team. Manners cost nothing. It's only Dawn, Joyce and Anya who are at least civil to Spike and the fact he's nice back in return because of it says a lot. The scoobies are Spike's social circle because he's persona non grata with the majority of the demon community, it's why I think he puts up with the treatment. Season 6 is the worst though as Spike isn't even treated as a person but a "thing" which even he complains to Anya about.

That pretty much helped give JM a full time job. How the character reacted and interacted with all the other cast concincex JW to bring him on full time. If JL had come back, there is no way he would've been able to do that.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

That pretty much helped give JM a full time job. How the character reacted and interacted with all the other cast concincex JW to bring him on full time.

True.

If JL had come back, there is no way he would've been able to do that.

Not necessarily. I think you could still hit the same points of the episode with Dru in town, just so long as she and Spike are apart and not talking to each other. It would limit Dru's role but it could be done.

 

[RachM]

* sits in the back and eats popcorn while reading this thread *

Joins @Foxy with a bucket of popcorn ...

 

[thetopher]

Just for the record, nobody automatically deserves somebody's affections. Love is either reciprocated or it isn't.
This is the kinda crap that is 'Nice Guy/Girl' thinking you see online a lot. 'Hi, you look great, we could be great together, why don't you like me, I'd be super good to you, better than all those others, why won't you date me even though I do all these nice things, whywhywhy...ungrateful b***h I'll kill you!! I hope you die!'

Truly Spike's love is too pure for Buffy's world.

It seems to me that many Spike fans tend to somehow absorb the romantic outlook he has of himself as well as his insane sense of entitlement.

 

[Thieving gypsy]

"DaniRose20 How doesn't he? He protected Dawn and the Scoobies pre soul. He helped take down Glory. He let her use him even when she told him he was disgusting. Why did he do that? Oh because he knew that was the only way he could have her."


^
You should have just said "Spike wants it so Spike's entitled to it".
No, nope, not even a little bit. Buffy does not have to show Spike any respect for his efforts to get between her legs. Being motivated to do good for selfish reasons should never earn anyone the reward they want.

If Spike was "the best" the writers wouldn't have had to continually service his character like they did. They wouldn't have had to stomp all over Spike/Dru Bangel/ Angel to convince people, Hey this Spuffy thing is legit!
The most used argument for "Spike is best for Buffy", isn't even about Spike. It simply tearing down Angel to make Spike look better. Personally, each time i read it i wait for my head to flop off my shoulders and bounce across the floor because i rolled my eyes too far.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

They wouldn't have had to stomp all over Spike/Dru Bangel/ Angel to convince people, Hey this Spuffy thing is legit!

I agree. If a ship has to be taken out in order for another ship in order to fly, it means that ship has no solid foundation and can't stand on its own two feet, thus being propped up by the fact that it's the only viable option. Drusilla's role in Crush was literally so Spike could reject her for Buffy. The Sprusilla flashback in FFL was again pushing Spuffy, turning it into the reason for Sprusilla's break up rather than Spike's actions at the end of Season 2. Angel had left for his own show so couldn't return and Riley was turned into an absolute dickhead in Season 5.

Contrast this with Willow's relationships with Oz and Tara. Tillow didn't need to take out Woz or put it down in any way in order to fly. Tara was even willing to step aside when Oz returned because she thought that would make Willow happy. When Willow chose Tara, Oz accepted it. Woz was not forcibly ended so that a subsequent ship could fly unimpeded.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

his insane sense of entitlement.

S6&7 was Spike was a precursor to the millennial generation.

 

[Btvs fan]

S6&7 was Spike was a precursor to the millennial generation.

That's unfair to millennial's. The current US president (70) has the biggest sense of entitlement you could ever find and he's no millennial.

 

[spikenbuffy]

S6&7 was Spike was a precursor to the millennial generation.

What do you mean ? Lol

 

[DayDreamer27]

Just for the record, nobody automatically deserves somebody's affections. Love is either reciprocated or it isn't.
This is the kinda crap that is 'Nice Guy/Girl' thinking you see online a lot. 'Hi, you look great, we could be great together, why don't you like me, I'd be super good to you, better than all those others, why won't you date me even though I do all these nice things, whywhywhy...ungrateful b***h I'll kill you!! I hope you die!'

Truly Spike's love is too pure for Buffy's world.

It seems to me that many Spike fans tend to somehow absorb the romantic outlook he has of himself as well as his insane sense of entitlement.

"DaniRose20 How doesn't he? He protected Dawn and the Scoobies pre soul. He helped take down Glory. He let her use him even when she told him he was disgusting. Why did he do that? Oh because he knew that was the only way he could have her."
^
You should have just said "Spike wants it so Spike's entitled to it".
No, nope, not even a little bit. Buffy does not have to show Spike any respect for his efforts to get between her legs. Being motivated to do good for selfish reasons should never earn anyone the reward they want.

If Spike was "the best" the writers wouldn't have had to continually service his character like they did. They wouldn't have had to stomp all over Spike/Dru Bangel/ Angel to convince people, Hey this Spuffy thing is legit!
The most used argument for "Spike is best for Buffy", isn't even about Spike. It simply tearing down Angel to make Spike look better. Personally, each time i read it i wait for my head to flop off my shoulders and bounce across the floor because i rolled my eyes too far.

Agreed with both of these.

It's seen more on youtube comments with numerous people calling Buffy a bitch for her treatment of Spike. Because he loves her so much & she treats him like dirt. As if he didn't give as good as he got in season sex with his emotional abuse. But his emotional abuse & tearing her down is seen as him understanding & challenging her. HA!!!

But then the comments of how he does so much out of love & she won't give an inch. Love can't be bought or earned. It's felt, and you can't chose whether or not to feel it, regardless of who you're dealing with.

Then Buffy was honest. After their first night, she says Spike in convenient. Then she's called a bitch for saying that to him. That's not bitchy, it was the truth. After that, the rest was on Spike. He didn't have to stick around & be treated as a convenience. He chose to & that was on him. Then he complains about not having all of her the way he wants & yelling at her that all she does is play him. You haven't been played if you knew the rules going in.

Buffy never lied about her feelings toward him. She couldn't stand him, but came to respect him in some cases. Then he would do something stupid or disgusting to take her right back to square one.

Season sex starts, and Buffy finally goes all the way with him, but notes that he's a convenient release. Later when Spike asks what the thing is they have, Buffy says bluntly that they don't have a thing, they have sex. That's all. Then Spike asks if she even likes him, and she replies that sometimes she does. So Buffy didn't hold back too much when admitting that her feelings were not deep or loving toward him. But he stuck around anyhow, because that's how desperate he was to get her. Again, not Buffy's fault. It'd be different if she was pretending to love him & telling him all the stuff he wants to hear just to keep him hooked. But she didn't do that, so Spike was never misinformed.

And I noticed some Spike fans even fall into Spike's denial. If Buffy said she didn't love him, she was lying or didn't know better. Can't even give her credit for knowing how she feels. Again, Spike is so desperate for Buffy's "affection", he's worked it all out in his head that she has to love him. And when the truth isn't what he wanted to hear, he tuned it out & made rationalizations to explain it away as lies or her playing hard to get.

Again, Spike is a perfect example of a person who suffers limerence.

Limerence is a state of mind which results from a romantic attraction to another person and typically includes obsessive thoughts and fantasies and a desire to form or maintain a relationship with the object of love and have one's feelings reciprocated.

Limerence

Assessment | Biopsychology | Comparative | Cognitive | Developmental | Language | Individual differences | Personality | Philosophy | Social | Methods | Statistics | Clinical | Educational | Industrial | Professional items | World psychology Clinical: Approaches · Group therapy · Techniques ·...

psychology.wikia.com

 

[Skanky Vamp]

in season sex

I love it. That's a perfect name for it. Season Sex. Was that as freudian slip or do/did people actually call it that? I can totally see why it would be called that.

 

[DayDreamer27]

I love it. That's a perfect name for it. Season Sex. Was that as freudian slip or do/did people actually call it that? I can totally see why it would be called that.

I got it from someone on here. And it was very appropriate, so I started calling it that too.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Just for the record, nobody automatically deserves somebody's affections. Love is either reciprocated or it isn't.

This... But like super big on some type of billboard in Hollywood so TV writers would stop with this tired trope already. I can't tell you how many time in my life I was told 'but what's wrong with you? Why don't you like him? look at the great things he has done for you.' This is mostly geared towards women, mind you. This notion that a man can make a grand gesture and that she SHOULD fall into his arms is insulting and it's really annoying that it basically becomes the central theme of Spuffy in s7.

Quick reminder to any people who may have forgotten. Buffy NEVER asked Spike to go get a soul. She asked him to leave her alone. That the guy went and got a soul anyway (because he knew there was no coming back from that sexual assault) is his problem... Not Buffy's.