Question I really like who Buffy became in season 7. IMO She's a warrior general! Am I alone?
- Thread starter DeepBlueJoy
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Anyanka Bunny Slayer
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Yes, I absolutely agree with you there. Plus, there's no way the network would've let a scene like that make it on air, even if THE BUTT SEX was just implied. It was the '90's, after all.
Oh shit, the whole BUTT SEX thing is making me laugh now. Just the words are killing me...because I have the emotional maturity of 12 year old. 😀
I shall not let this go. It's just so damn funny to me right now!
Waitress (to customer): "Have you tried our BUTT SEX burger? The meat is behind the lettuce."
Hee hee. I need to stop. *exits thread*
Only on the fact that Buffy is standing upright Spike comes up behind and you see him thrust , Buffy is not leaning forward and Spike would have had a very long and a bent penis to be taken her vaginally in that position .
And if I remember correctly I think JW said it was anal
EarthLogic
Scooby
I think now would the perfect time to bring this thread back on topic! 🙂
I don't really have a problem with who Buffy becomes this season - I'm not bothered by seeing a tougher Buffy either and considering the threat she's facing it's entriely appropriate that she would take on the mantle of General and make mistakes along the way as she learns how to learn. For me it's more a matter of not being able to connect with her as I could in the previous six seasons. I wanted to be able to experience things alongside her, get insight into her thinking instead of feeling like I was on the outside looking in.
I don't really have a problem with who Buffy becomes this season - I'm not bothered by seeing a tougher Buffy either and considering the threat she's facing it's entriely appropriate that she would take on the mantle of General and make mistakes along the way as she learns how to learn. For me it's more a matter of not being able to connect with her as I could in the previous six seasons. I wanted to be able to experience things alongside her, get insight into her thinking instead of feeling like I was on the outside looking in.
The network had no sensor board that's the reason Whedon could do the over the top sex scenes , In fact Smashed got reported to the decency committee,
I felt Buffy's hand going out of site in smashed equally disturbing...... why did we need that ?
Another point in the balcony scene Buffy never gives permission she says don't he says stop me...he never has permission so its rape , you don't need to fight some one off
The whole sex was S&M hurting each other with Spike being the dominant one after all it was his sexual fantasy of fighting the Slayer the Shagging her he had both Harmony and the Bot act it out
The whole thing was over the top and according to Freddie the real reason Sarah walked
The Buffy we knew from the 5 seasons before died in the exportation that was S6
S7 Buffy was not Buffy just a shadow of what she was
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Totally agree we used to know Buffy the show was about her perspective, S7 it was more about Spikes,..... Buffy changed into a soap opera it was no longer about Buffy the Vampire slayer
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EarthLogic
Scooby
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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Anyanka Bunny Slayer
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For many years, when a man initiates sex with a woman who seems hesitant, but doesn't object it's been referred to as a "seduction." Did Buffy use her considerable Slayer powers to fight him off? No. She was conflicted, but a part of her WANTED to get laid. It wasn't rape, for God's sake.
This particular sub-topic is such a glaring example of today's politically correct/everybody's a victim environment .
GraceK
Seriously. The way things are going I feel like I have to tell my son to carry consent forms in the future and get the girls signature
DeepBlueJoy
How does it get to be rape? Public sex is taboo no matter which entrance is in use... I never really speculated. All she had to do was step to the side and move away if she wanted to stop, and he'd have been there with his bits in the wind...
Steven123
Angel's Buddy
If that were true about Freddie etc , I know the scene hit a few of them hard personally , as I posted earlier Marsters stated he had to lie in the fetal position after doing the scene since it had that much of an effect on him after doing so
I think it was just the way it may have come across to others if the show was starting to take a dark path like this one that it might have been a rolling stone for the rest of the show there after
Sarah on leaving Buffy....Sarah being the Lady she is said it was because of the work load Especially the increase in fight scenes leaving her with so many bruises she had to wear jeans etc all the time , but Freddies interview which I expect you can still find he talks of all the nonsense that Sarah had to put up with, how peoples Ego's got in the way and he hopes he is lever like that and that's why she would not be comeing back .
I read somewhere that Sarah was offered $350,000 dollars per episode to do S8 but she would only sign if she could OK the scripts before hand ( after six who could blame her ) but they were not fore coming from Mutant enemy
With TV shows it not like a film where you read a Script , you have to rely on the people in charge, you can only sign on the story, time slot and what has gone before , once signed you basically have to do what they ask of you, if they abuse that power then there is little you can do ( fortunately for Sarah she had a no nudity clause in her contract )
With season seven and Buffy acting the way she did , At the start with Buffy Xander and Dawn a little family unit it was like original Buffy , Buffy worrying about Mum hair etc , but certainly after CWDP Buffy was no longer Buffy it was as if the writer had never watched Buffy , cold to everyone but Spike, but the to push Spuffy you have to isolate Buffy from her friends ( RE S6 ) , it was topped by them throwing Buffy out of her house for Faith WTF......but Spike saved the day
Plot holes where do you begin
Why did not Celeb or the Ubervamp not kill Buffy when she was unconscious ?
Why kidnap Spike to open the hell mouth when you have a Army of Bringers
What was its with Spike in the cellar with Ist Spike saying its not time yet ....time for what
How did Spike get in the cellar of the new school anyway? It was bad enough in S6 when he got to Africa before the Ambulance got to Buffy
How come the ubervamps suddenly get easy to kill ?
You can go on....... its a bit like Buffy had the darkness in her so she was attracted to Vampires ( Spike ) 10,000 years of slayers and not once was it written about the darkness before ?
No s7 like 6 had little to do with BTVS they are separate we talk about them as separate.....Buffy was not Buffy in the last two seasons...... certainly S7
I read somewhere that Sarah was offered $350,000 dollars per episode to do S8 but she would only sign if she could OK the scripts before hand ( after six who could blame her ) but they were not fore coming from Mutant enemy
With TV shows it not like a film where you read a Script , you have to rely on the people in charge, you can only sign on the story, time slot and what has gone before , once signed you basically have to do what they ask of you, if they abuse that power then there is little you can do ( fortunately for Sarah she had a no nudity clause in her contract )
With season seven and Buffy acting the way she did , At the start with Buffy Xander and Dawn a little family unit it was like original Buffy , Buffy worrying about Mum hair etc , but certainly after CWDP Buffy was no longer Buffy it was as if the writer had never watched Buffy , cold to everyone but Spike, but the to push Spuffy you have to isolate Buffy from her friends ( RE S6 ) , it was topped by them throwing Buffy out of her house for Faith WTF......but Spike saved the day
Plot holes where do you begin
Why did not Celeb or the Ubervamp not kill Buffy when she was unconscious ?
Why kidnap Spike to open the hell mouth when you have a Army of Bringers
What was its with Spike in the cellar with Ist Spike saying its not time yet ....time for what
How did Spike get in the cellar of the new school anyway? It was bad enough in S6 when he got to Africa before the Ambulance got to Buffy
How come the ubervamps suddenly get easy to kill ?
You can go on....... its a bit like Buffy had the darkness in her so she was attracted to Vampires ( Spike ) 10,000 years of slayers and not once was it written about the darkness before ?
No s7 like 6 had little to do with BTVS they are separate we talk about them as separate.....Buffy was not Buffy in the last two seasons...... certainly S7
Not sure how this is relevant to the topic, but do you have any reference or link to this? For others who want to read it, like @dcai0830 🙂
I think he has it in his contracts now too that he won't do rape scenes. Can't blame him. Brilliant acting, but must've been a really, really shitty day at work!
Anyway, let's bring it back to the topic and Buffy being a warrior general or not! Agree or disagree?
Great point about not being able to connect as much with her, I think that's a problem for many fans. We're so used to being "with" Buffy, that feeling left out of her experience was a bit of a shock.
TriBel
Scooby
@DeepBlueJoy S7 Buffy's my favourite manifestation but not for the reasons you give. 🙂
I'd say @EarthLogic and @Grace were spot on. I differ in as much as I find it consistent with their characters and I think my understanding of metaphor embraces far more than theirs. Rob Cover sees BtVS as an example of "new television narrative". "Such a format is highly available for the complex critique of identity, embodiment and abjection, particularly because it provides the temporal and spatial scope to examine such issues at length and allow them to play out over time. Strong fan-bases provide an impetus for ensuring strong continuity, and Joss Whedon (Kaveney, 2001: 12) has clearly been particularly interested not only in maintaining continuity, but in setting up narratives (and hinting at plot developments) several years before they go into production. Character change, development and transformation become possible in this new television format, and such transformation does not rely on the cliché of stability-change-return that marks most episodic television. Rather, transformation occurs in the encounter with otherness. often the abject other, in Kristeva's terms (1982).and it does so in ways which either leave a character's body indelibly marked or upon which the trace of transformation will remain". http://www.aesthethika.org/IMG/pdf/Coverv2n1.pdf
Personally, I'm happy with his summation.
It certainly wasn't character assassination for me. I really don't need someone to explain to me how a radical feminist text works. IMO, without S7 Buffy would have remained a "hot chick with super-powers". I don't want that from a feminist icon - I want a central character and a show that radically disrupts patriarchal binaries and deconstructs the phallogocentrism that nurtures it. It might have spoiled the show for you (I'm sorry) but it improved it for me.
I'd say @EarthLogic and @Grace were spot on. I differ in as much as I find it consistent with their characters and I think my understanding of metaphor embraces far more than theirs. Rob Cover sees BtVS as an example of "new television narrative". "Such a format is highly available for the complex critique of identity, embodiment and abjection, particularly because it provides the temporal and spatial scope to examine such issues at length and allow them to play out over time. Strong fan-bases provide an impetus for ensuring strong continuity, and Joss Whedon (Kaveney, 2001: 12) has clearly been particularly interested not only in maintaining continuity, but in setting up narratives (and hinting at plot developments) several years before they go into production. Character change, development and transformation become possible in this new television format, and such transformation does not rely on the cliché of stability-change-return that marks most episodic television. Rather, transformation occurs in the encounter with otherness. often the abject other, in Kristeva's terms (1982).and it does so in ways which either leave a character's body indelibly marked or upon which the trace of transformation will remain". http://www.aesthethika.org/IMG/pdf/Coverv2n1.pdf
Personally, I'm happy with his summation.
Antho
Scooby
I vote "She was OK, I guess. I liked her at the end. She was too cold and depressing otherwise"
Part of me can't hate her. She is still Buffy, I can't love one person all of theses years and suddently hate her like that. Plus, my girl is still there, somewhere, inside of this body. She is just drowned under this icy ocean that made her look cold and insensitive. But sometimes it happens that a little heat reach her and I have my hero back.
Part of me can't hate her. She is still Buffy, I can't love one person all of theses years and suddently hate her like that. Plus, my girl is still there, somewhere, inside of this body. She is just drowned under this icy ocean that made her look cold and insensitive. But sometimes it happens that a little heat reach her and I have my hero back.
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
I would have loved a tougher Buffy. Unfortunately that's not S7 Buffy. For her to be that she'd have to be tough across the board without exceptions. There is an equality that comes into play with that. So I'm not talking about treating people like throwaway objects and not caring when they die. But to treat all the people around her equally. To put aside your differences with someone and for the bigger picture learn to treat them like you do everyone else. To not engage in your own little petty problems. To not show favoritism. To eliminate threats even when that threat is part of your group. To not threaten/beat up your allies by simply being above such childishness. Being mature enough to push back when someone forces it all on you like Giles did in S7. Don't take it all on you because everyone expects you to and asks you to and then complain that you have to do it all. Delegate whether people like it or not. Being strong is admitting to yourself and others that you can't do it all by yourself.
I only remember Freddy talking about the BTS stuff and on set situation. After which Whedon told him to STFU since he had no idea what he was talking about because he wasn't there every day.
DeepBlueJoy
Lion Faced Kitteh
I see her more as tired, honest Buffy, than tough, cold-hearted Buffy. It seems to me she grieves every loss, she just grows impatient with people who get themselves and others hurt unnecessarily. She has an impossible situation and in spite of the flaws of the writing, I like that she ended up sharing her power and getting the job done. I also am cool with her having help from a man (Spike) in the process. It's a) his world too b) a huge sacrifice she makes for the world. I don't think it subverts her power. After all, though he does the combusting, without Buffy standing up for him being there, he's dead or at least out of Sunnydale.
It felt as though, in the final analysis she secures the planet, and also makes sure there are slayers to keep it secure, even if none of them survives Sunnydale, b/c the world in which one slayer was enough has been gone for hundreds of years. It is a big, mobile, complex world and the threats have mal-intent, technology and magic/demonic power and every asset of modern life. Humans and demons may not change their nature, but the force multipliers of technology and modern weapons? Those will continue to change and not everything out there will want to fight with teeth and claws.
One other thought that comes to me about the whole complicated mess is that with the hellmouth boiling over and screwing with everyone's heads (we see the cops and the students at the school being rapidly and horrendously affected) I think we can assume it also has bad effects on ALL the people left in Sunnydale, yes even our heroes -- all of them. So we should probably cut everyone some slack!
It felt as though, in the final analysis she secures the planet, and also makes sure there are slayers to keep it secure, even if none of them survives Sunnydale, b/c the world in which one slayer was enough has been gone for hundreds of years. It is a big, mobile, complex world and the threats have mal-intent, technology and magic/demonic power and every asset of modern life. Humans and demons may not change their nature, but the force multipliers of technology and modern weapons? Those will continue to change and not everything out there will want to fight with teeth and claws.
One other thought that comes to me about the whole complicated mess is that with the hellmouth boiling over and screwing with everyone's heads (we see the cops and the students at the school being rapidly and horrendously affected) I think we can assume it also has bad effects on ALL the people left in Sunnydale, yes even our heroes -- all of them. So we should probably cut everyone some slack!
But isn't where it all falls down again ,. whedon try's to little to late to make it Buffy again, with the core four joking around entering the school as if the last two seasons had not happened, at the Bus joking about the Mall....all to little to late... that Buffy & co died somewhere in S6
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I found the interview but from a old thread so I will have to type it
Freddie Prinze junior and why Gellar left Buffy
End of Buffy only makes Gellar stronger
Thu Apr 17 2003
Without going into specifics, prince hints that the later seasons of Buffy may have been rough for his bride
A lot of people owe Sarah a lot for doing that show, Prince says and she doesn't always get the credit she deserves. She a very strong woman, because she deals with a lot of nonsense, and instead of that nonsense she should be thanked...and she's not. That's the reason she won;t be coming back. Sarah's the most appreciative person in the world, and it that environment would have remained the way it was sex years ago, she would have go back , because she's loyal. But things change , and peoples egos get in the way sometimes. they make poor decisions , I don't agree with it , but I understand it, and pray I'm never guilty of it
Prinze asserts that , whatever happened , Gellar gave 100%. And even if she not, nobody knew because she commits. She's a badass
I understand from above what FPJ as saying is that Sarah's the working environment was horrible, which go's along with Sarah saying she was talked down from the ledge many times by JW and MN, being yelled at by JW , felt degraded, etc
I remember JW telling FPJ to STFU not sure if it was about the above or something else
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Sorry for some of the spelling I have written sex instead of six..... post's emerged and I could not alter
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crazysoulless
Scooby
I could list over 100 funny quotes Buffy said in s7. And dozens of nice/caring quotes. And I could list plenty of times in s7 she was hard on Spike.
In Doomed, Xander & Willow brought Spike with them to the Hellmouth to help stop an apocalypse because they didn't want him to kill himself and in A New Man Giles went to his crypt and suggested he could use the chip as an opportunity to change his ways and be a better person who works for team good and that was in s4 when he was was evil soulless remorseless. But in s7 when he is good souled and feels remorse suddenly he's Public Enemy Number One and Buffy is a monster for helping him.
Should Sydney Bristow on Alias revenge murder the sleeper agent who killed her fiance while under a post hypnotic trigger? Should Angel be killed for Reprise since he didn't know sex with Darla wouldn't release Angelus? Should Willow be killed since the First was able to possess her for a few seconds and she told Xander using powerful magic made her afraid she'd be tempted to murder everyone since she never learned to control her emotions? Should Dawn be killed since she might still have The Key inside her and start an interdimensional apocalypse?
The last time Spike harmed someone under the trigger was November. Lies My Parents Told Me was only a few weeks at most from Chosen since Willow was in LA for a day or so, then the vineyard and mutiny happened right away and it led into the final episodes. So it was early May. He didn't harm anyone in 5 1/2 months. That's nearly half a year.
Willow was made part of the group again less than 4 months after she tried to torture and murder all of the Scoobies and started an apocalypse. The episode after Anya chose to conjure a spider demon to rip out the hearts of a dozen people, Buffy went to her apartment, saved her life from a demon, called her a friend, and welcomed her back into the group to live in her house rent free. In Conversations With Dead People, Andrew was working for the First, stabbed a human to death, and tried to open the Hellmouth. In Never Leave Me he tried to open the Hellmouth again. And yet he's their guestage. He never even took responsibility for being part of the Trio. He tried to gangrape Katrina. He was the one who summoned the Garble Gasmanik to inject Buffy with its hallucinatory venom. The night before Warren shot Buffy, Andrew was yelling "Kill her! Kill her!"
In Doomed, Xander & Willow brought Spike with them to the Hellmouth to help stop an apocalypse because they didn't want him to kill himself and in A New Man Giles went to his crypt and suggested he could use the chip as an opportunity to change his ways and be a better person who works for team good and that was in s4 when he was was evil soulless remorseless. But in s7 when he is good souled and feels remorse suddenly he's Public Enemy Number One and Buffy is a monster for helping him.
Should Sydney Bristow on Alias revenge murder the sleeper agent who killed her fiance while under a post hypnotic trigger? Should Angel be killed for Reprise since he didn't know sex with Darla wouldn't release Angelus? Should Willow be killed since the First was able to possess her for a few seconds and she told Xander using powerful magic made her afraid she'd be tempted to murder everyone since she never learned to control her emotions? Should Dawn be killed since she might still have The Key inside her and start an interdimensional apocalypse?
The last time Spike harmed someone under the trigger was November. Lies My Parents Told Me was only a few weeks at most from Chosen since Willow was in LA for a day or so, then the vineyard and mutiny happened right away and it led into the final episodes. So it was early May. He didn't harm anyone in 5 1/2 months. That's nearly half a year.
Willow was made part of the group again less than 4 months after she tried to torture and murder all of the Scoobies and started an apocalypse. The episode after Anya chose to conjure a spider demon to rip out the hearts of a dozen people, Buffy went to her apartment, saved her life from a demon, called her a friend, and welcomed her back into the group to live in her house rent free. In Conversations With Dead People, Andrew was working for the First, stabbed a human to death, and tried to open the Hellmouth. In Never Leave Me he tried to open the Hellmouth again. And yet he's their guestage. He never even took responsibility for being part of the Trio. He tried to gangrape Katrina. He was the one who summoned the Garble Gasmanik to inject Buffy with its hallucinatory venom. The night before Warren shot Buffy, Andrew was yelling "Kill her! Kill her!"
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
The thing is all the characters apart from Spike are in control of their actions by S7; Spike is- as of 'LMPTM'- still in the thrall of the First Evil. Buffy never addresses that and leaves him alone for episdies at a time. The only reason that Spike didn't do serious damage is thanks to The First NOT doing anything, and Giles for getting a device to de-trrigger him.
Buffy isn't a monster but she is needlessly reckless. Also Spike shows remorse towards Buffy, and yet none towards Wood or his mother- even though he affected both thier lives pre-soul.
DeepBlueJoy
Lion Faced Kitteh
@thetopher, all those characters who are so 'under control' have souls and had them when they did their bad things. They had conscience and judgement that Spike did not have.
By contrast, Spike had no soul - but his heart told him that hurting Buffy was unacceptable, and and he went to the other side of the planet and fought for his soul, because of his bad thing. In that one instant, it becomes clear to him that he's unable to exercise true moral judgment even though he wants to give Buffy 'what she deserves'. He is if anything more of a penitent than the others are.
Spike didn't rape Buffy, though nothing about his assault is in any way acceptable. Willow actually rapes Tara, calmly and with forethought and malice b/c she roofies her and she cannot consent in any meaningful way. We don't know how many times she roofied Tara. She was very comfy with those memory removal spells... She never really is called on that. And she does all that after being called about her resurrection spell. Then she tries to end all of creation! You don't get further down than that unless you actually end the world. yet, she gets a pass. She is, if anything, more dangerous after trying to end the world, not less.
(Angel btw, also never fights for his soul, or seriously looks for a way to anchor it. Yet, he remains an ally too... even after facilitating the murder of those lawyers in the wine cellar)
.
Oh, Spike's trigger? The First managed to control and influence just about everyone over the course of that season. The trigger was NOT Spike's fault. If something bad takes over a friend, does this mean the friend should die? No, you should cure the friend and yes, protect others, if they represent a danger... you know, like they did with Oz!!!
Season 7 Spike exactly analagous to Oz, who I hear no one suggest we kill, not even after he ripped the throat out of Veruca and almost killed Willow. Like Oz, Spike is dangerous, but he has a soul and he has good intent. He's a qualified and able ally, with a dangerous problem. He's NEVER the enemy to be put down.
Wood was influenced by the First to kill Spike because the First knew Spike was a threat.
Should we have killed Wood for being under the influence of the First, in his case, knowingly and willingly?
By contrast, Spike had no soul - but his heart told him that hurting Buffy was unacceptable, and and he went to the other side of the planet and fought for his soul, because of his bad thing. In that one instant, it becomes clear to him that he's unable to exercise true moral judgment even though he wants to give Buffy 'what she deserves'. He is if anything more of a penitent than the others are.
Spike didn't rape Buffy, though nothing about his assault is in any way acceptable. Willow actually rapes Tara, calmly and with forethought and malice b/c she roofies her and she cannot consent in any meaningful way. We don't know how many times she roofied Tara. She was very comfy with those memory removal spells... She never really is called on that. And she does all that after being called about her resurrection spell. Then she tries to end all of creation! You don't get further down than that unless you actually end the world. yet, she gets a pass. She is, if anything, more dangerous after trying to end the world, not less.
(Angel btw, also never fights for his soul, or seriously looks for a way to anchor it. Yet, he remains an ally too... even after facilitating the murder of those lawyers in the wine cellar)
.
Oh, Spike's trigger? The First managed to control and influence just about everyone over the course of that season. The trigger was NOT Spike's fault. If something bad takes over a friend, does this mean the friend should die? No, you should cure the friend and yes, protect others, if they represent a danger... you know, like they did with Oz!!!
Season 7 Spike exactly analagous to Oz, who I hear no one suggest we kill, not even after he ripped the throat out of Veruca and almost killed Willow. Like Oz, Spike is dangerous, but he has a soul and he has good intent. He's a qualified and able ally, with a dangerous problem. He's NEVER the enemy to be put down.
Wood was influenced by the First to kill Spike because the First knew Spike was a threat.
Should we have killed Wood for being under the influence of the First, in his case, knowingly and willingly?