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I refuse to accept Kennedy as Willow's end game pairing / one true love.

NothingVentured

Potential
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Jun 22, 2014
Messages
281
* No, she has had ANY ability to make meaningful consent REMOVED by means of a mindwipe. The mind rape facilitates actual rape - sex that the clear minded Tara would not have consented to. She was made to forget the reason for no sex. Women who are drugged are often given things that make them confused, compliant and controllable. How is this different?
I am not saying it's different but the show itself followed those rules. The reason The Trio using the dampener was considered rape is that is the purpose of it was solely to make someone have sex. The various uses of other spells are treated differently, so we have the girls being embarrassed rather than outraged by eps like BBB and Him. Willow's spell isn't to make Tara sleep with Willow.

Not saying I agree with it or that it's right, but that's the logic the show was using.

* Buffy never said anything like that to Giles, even at the beginning when the WC had led to her being expelled and put in a mental institution. Kennedy was about to be a guest when she arrived at Buffy's door and her OPENING greeting was a nasty verbal slap in the face.
Buffy, no, but Faith was acted entitled from the start. Both she and Kendra had an attitude toward Buffy, belittled her and acted like she wasn't any kind of thing. Rarely do you see anyone hating them for that attitude.
 

WillowFromBuffy

To be or not to evil.
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sex that the clear minded Tara would not have consented to. She was made to forget the reason for no sex.
I think you're misconstruing things. Willow does not use the spell to have sex with Tara. She casts the spell so that she can continue to use magic as she pleases in peace. Tara never suggests that she's going to cut off sex, nor do we have any reason to suspect that horniness is a motivator for Willow.

The spell is an awful violation and it does create a consent issue, but it is very different from giving someone a date rape drug.
How is this different?
There's no drug in existence that works like that.
Buffy never said anything like that to Giles, even at the beginning when the WC had led to her being expelled and put in a mental institution. Kennedy was about to be a guest when she arrived at Buffy's door and her OPENING greeting was a nasty verbal slap in the face.
Yes, she does. And you talk about Buffy as though she was made of paper. Kennedy's comment is a jibe from a younger person to an elder of higher status. It is nothing next to the verbal abuse Buffy has both suffered and dished out on a regular basis.
I am not sure you are right. Just because men sometimes get away with stuff does not make it right.
What things?
 
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DeepBlueJoy

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Not misconstruing. Willow mind wipes everyone so that people who were angry at her (or sad in Buffy's case) will forget.

Our memories are WHO WE ARE. This is why dementia is such a tragedy. People vanish while their bodies remain. A demented person cannot consent to the things they might have done before they 'forgot'. Willow STOLE part of who Tara was and Tara said that to her afterwards... Particularly after what Glory had done. Remember that conversation?

Specifically with Tara, they are fighting, and Willow mindwipes her so she forgets that fight... then they go to bed... foreseeable outcome is a 'normal' love life and a non pissed off Tara. That is a massive violation. The mindwipe even more so than the sex. The sex is just the nasty cherry on top. If I'm having a huge, potentially relationship changing fight with my spouse and he makes me forget it and then we have sex, he's basically made me 'consent' to something I would not have consented to before he made me forget. THAT is a sexual assault. She cannot give MEANINGFUL consent due to diminished capacity. She cannot give consent anymore than someone drunk or under something that ensures compliance. Her mind has been altered. Her NORMAL Mind would not consent. Therefore, she's been assaulted. Rape is a word people have trouble with, but as a rape survivor and someone who has counseled other peers, my experience is that most rape sex is not 'violent' in the sense of being dragged into an alley at gun point. Most rape sex is much more nuanced. It's about convincing a person who is a kid that they want it. It's about convincing them that they are BAD when their 12 year old penis gets hard even though they cannot consent to what is occuring because they are a child.

Tara's mind and therefore her ability to consent to ANYTHING or agree to anything is removed. Therefore no consent occured. Therefore, ASSAULT occurred. I refuse to butter it up.

I like Willow. If you read my work, you'll see I look for good in her. I think she did what she did under the influence of her addiction... but addicts may not be responsible for their addiction, but we are always accountable for any and all consequences. If we kill someone in a blind rage, or black out drunk, we are accountable.

I can see both sides of this. I sympathize. I love Willow, but her behavior and her later on self centered lack of true repentance bothers me. She's not bad, but she is only partly redeemed. Saving the world and caring about the other scoobies makes me care about her, but I have a lot of difficulty with her behavior OVER THE ENTIRE SERIES. Even when things like breaking into city computer systems benefited the scoobies, she showed herself willing to break laws and rules when it suited HER. That is a dangerous mindset.

--------

Kennedy's behavior is not a deep wound for Buffy. It is telling, however -- about Kennedy's character. It does reveal a selfish, abrasive, mean spirited and spoiled girl. She has some good qualities, but Kennedy was not a nice person from day one. She is controlling and manipulative and mean to people she has power over. This is NOT someone I want to hang out with. I don't think she's evil, but her behavior is not acceptable.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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It's about convincing a person who is a kid that they want it. It's about convincing them that they are BAD when their 12 year old penis gets hard even though they cannot consent to what is occuring because they are a child.
I am not refuting that what Willow does is incredibly wrong. It could even be construed as rape. But you're making comparisons that muddle the issue. There were no drugs and no 12 year old penises involved. All these issues deserve to be looked at for what they are. If someone raped a 12 year old child, you wouldn't compare it to any other type of rape.
 

DeepBlueJoy

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I am not saying it's different but the show itself followed those rules. The reason The Trio using the dampener was considered rape is that is the purpose of it was solely to make someone have sex. The various uses of other spells are treated differently, so we have the girls being embarrassed rather than outraged by eps like BBB and Him. Willow's spell isn't to make Tara sleep with Willow.

Not saying I agree with it or that it's right, but that's the logic the show was using.
Actually, Willow's behavior isn't that different from Warrens with his ex. Warren wanted to control his ex so he could bend her to his will. Willow bent people to her will for them - happy and not angry with her - using magic just as Warren used magic. I think they react less angrily to her behavior because she's their friend and she acts penitent when caught. She also wanted 'good' for Buffy -- though no one gets to decide that for another -- Buffy is plainly miserable. But what she does when she repeatedly (in Tara's case) wipes away fights -- that is like being roofied. Tara will wake up next morning with no recollection of the REAL nature of the night before. She will have only Willow's version, edited of all conflict.



Buffy, no, but Faith was acted entitled from the start. Both she and Kendra had an attitude toward Buffy, belittled her and acted like she wasn't any kind of thing. Rarely do you see anyone hating them for that attitude.
We see them being nice and being heroic over and over... and funny, caring and resourceful. Faith has reasons for being screwed up, though that doesn't excuse her.

Kendra is hated by some (I see it in a lot of fics where she's killed off even quicker than in reality) but she dies tragically, so that makes it hard for people to hate her. She was barely there. I wasn't happy with her when she arrived, and I REALLY wanted a black person in the series.

If Kennedy had died in Chosen instead of Anya, she would not be controversial now. She'd be a footnote.

In Buffy's case, from the very start she is a hero and defends Willow from monsters AND befriends her even though she is a social outcast. When Buffy misbehaves, she gets confronted by people -- including Cordelia! Our FIRST impression of Kennedy is of her being rude and dismissive. The first words she says are mean. Then she calls a potential a maggot and that potential commits suicide. Even though that was the potential's choice, it's clear why people might hate her.

I don't hate her, but I don't enjoy her. she has no redeeming qualities that make me want to like or love her. She's not caring, creative or resourceful. She is not funny. She is just one of the pack, but she's meaner and ruder than the rest of the pile of useless, scared girls who never should have been there. what is to like?

She also is hated because she came after Tara. As a widow myself, I got a lot of 'you're betraying his memory' from people after I moved on. They loved a dead man and 25 years later, I still do love him... but he was dead and I wasn't. So Kennedy sufferes for that. People will hate ANYONE who replaces a beloved friend and Tara was more beloved than most and her death was tragic. So... Kennedy gets hated for her behavior AND for her existence in Willow's life as 'replacement' for Tara. Even though she isn't trying to be.
 

DeepBlueJoy

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I am not refuting that what Willow does is incredibly wrong. It could even be construed as rape. But you're making comparisons that muddle the issue. There were no drugs and no 12 year old penises involved. All these issues deserve to be looked at for what they are. If someone raped a 12 year old child, you wouldn't compare it to any other type of rape.
You really are arguing that COMPLETE removal of memories is less bad than drugs? She went into Tara's MIND and messed with it. She could have caused permanent memory loss. What would have happened if no one had stepped on the crystal? When you forget who you are, it's easy to do things you would not do. They all came close to dying for Willow's mind stealing antics in Tabula Rasa.

Tara was made aroused and she convinced that things were true that were not... just like when a perpetrator grooms a victim.

I am trying to illustrate points. I'm not saying that the things are exactly the same. NO two situations are exactly the same. It's one reason sex crimes are so hard to prosecute. It comes down to judgment calls about what is and isn't consent, what she said or what she said... or he or they...

Mind altering to obtain a person's compliance is always wrong. No matter what means we use to accomplish it.

If you were considering leaving your partner because they cheated, and somehow they wiped your mind of that information, and you had sex because you forgot why you were leaving, would that be assault?

From Dawn's comments, it was clear Willow had done this behavior before she got caught. Tara and Willow were fighting over time... and then Tara was forgetting. Willow was deleting important files from her mental computer. Vital files.
 

DeadlyDuo

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If Kennedy was a man, no one would bat an eye.
I disagree. People would be more up in arms if it had been a man because of the refusal to take no for an answer, especially in today's social climate.

Buffy, no, but Faith was acted entitled from the start. Both she and Kendra had an attitude toward Buffy, belittled her and acted like she wasn't any kind of thing. Rarely do you see anyone hating them for that attitude.
Faith and Kendra weren't expecting to live in Buffy's home as a guest. Kennedy turns up to Buffy's house and the first thing she does is look down her nose at Buffy. Kendra had reason to be suspicious because she saw Buffy kissing Angel when he was in vamp face. Both Faith and Kendra became friends with Buffy briefly before their turn to the dark side/ death. Kennedy made no effort to get along with Buffy, and the whole crux of the mutiny is that Buffy isn't letting Kennedy get her way, hence why Kennedy wants Faith in charge after brownnosing her.

The spell is an awful violation and it does create a consent issue, but it is very different from giving someone a date rape drug.
Agreed. What Tara is upset about is the violation of trust and the fact that she can't be sure that Willow hasn't done the same thing before, she can't trust Willow anymore.

Yes, she does. And you talk about Buffy as though she was made of paper. Kennedy's comment is a jibe from a younger person to an elder of higher status. It is nothing next to the verbal abuse Buffy has both suffered and dished out on a regular basis.
Kennedy doesn't even say hello to Buffy. Her first words are to look down her nose at her and say "so this is the slayer?" before just strolling in. Buffy has not invited Kennedy, she's had the potentials thrust upon her by Giles. Essentially Kennedy is the guest from hell and Buffy is forced to put up with her.

Actually, Willow's behavior isn't that different from Warrens with his ex. Warren wanted to control his ex so he could bend her to his will.
I disagree. Katrina had made it clear that she wanted nothing to do with Warren at all, his answer was to mind control her into being his sex slave. for that period of time Katrina wasn't Katrina.

Willow erased one memory. It was wrong but Tara was still Tara.

So... Kennedy gets hated for her behavior AND for her existence in Willow's life as 'replacement' for Tara. Even though she isn't trying to be.
Kennedy isn't hated for coming after Tara, she's hated because she's a self entitled brat who is a horrible person.
 

NothingVentured

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Actually, Willow's behavior isn't that different from Warrens with his ex. Warren wanted to control his ex so he could bend her to his will. Willow bent people to her will for them - happy and not angry with her - using magic just as Warren used magic. I think they react less angrily to her behavior because she's their friend and she acts penitent when caught. She also wanted 'good' for Buffy -- though no one gets to decide that for another -- Buffy is plainly miserable. But what she does when she repeatedly (in Tara's case) wipes away fights -- that is like being roofied. Tara will wake up next morning with no recollection of the REAL nature of the night before. She will have only Willow's version, edited of all conflict.
I'm not arguing that I agree. I was only saying the rules the show seemed to use. As long as the spell or whatever wasn't directly related to coercing a sexual encounter, the show played it off even to the point of suggesting the bespelled person remained culpable.

We see them being nice and being heroic over and over... and funny, caring and resourceful. Faith has reasons for being screwed up, though that doesn't excuse her.
We see Kennedy do things as well. And I'd say fans do plenty of excusing for Faith's behavior. It's Buffy and the gang's fault for not including her. It's Giles and Joyce's fault for not setting her up. In the very first scene she shows up, she walks over takes the stake out of Buffy's hand. She steals food right off her plate. She was belittling and disrespectful on about every level including disregarding personal boundaries.


I don't hate her, but I don't enjoy her. she has no redeeming qualities that make me want to like or love her. She's not caring, creative or resourceful. She is not funny. She is just one of the pack, but she's meaner and ruder than the rest of the pile of useless, scared girls who never should have been there. what is to like?

She also is hated because she came after Tara. As a widow myself, I got a lot of 'you're betraying his memory' from people after I moved on. They loved a dead man and 25 years later, I still do love him... but he was dead and I wasn't. So Kennedy sufferes for that. People will hate ANYONE who replaces a beloved friend and Tara was more beloved than most and her death was tragic. So... Kennedy gets hated for her behavior AND for her existence in Willow's life as 'replacement' for Tara. Even though she isn't trying to be.
I don't hate her. I don't really like her, either. But the sputtering rage is far more than the character deserves when there are actual horrible people who have raped and murdered that have people defend them to the death. Her behavior isn't different than the behavior shown by fan favorites like Cordy or Anya or Spike or Faith. Disliking her for coming after Tara is a fine enough reason for me. It's the over-the-top she was mean to Buffy and never did anything stuff that makes it all rather tiresome.
 

Athene

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I would like to know why Kennedy ticks some people off as much as she does. Sure she was rude to Buffy but why is that such a big deal 🤷‍♀️ Kennedy has some scenes that show she has some admirable qualities. It's to each their own though of course :)
 

thrasherpix

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I would like to know why Kennedy ticks some people off as much as she does. Sure she was rude to Buffy but why is that such a big deal 🤷‍♀️ Kennedy has some scenes that show she has some admirable qualities. It's to each their own though of course :)
As a viewer of the show I don't hate her. I'm not a fan of Killow, but I'm not much of a shipper anyway (but this one was a bit more irritating than normal). I find a lot more about season 7 problematic so that I don't think about her much.

I think because the time wasn't felt that it seemed Willow moved onto Kennedy way too fast, and that's probably why most instinctively don't like her. It doesn't help that we don't know her life the way we know Buffy's life, and even if we didn't know Buffy and friends her attitude was on the grating side.

I can even see a younger Buffy, very resentful of being forced to flee to another country to some Slayer, being rather rude herself who pretty much did her own thing while mocking authority (and there have been moments I wouldn't have blamed Joyce much for slapping Buffy for her cheek, and she wasn't anywhere as obnoxious with her as she was with other authority figures, though granted it's easy to take her side, in large part because it's shown primarily from her perspective, a perk Kennedy doesn't get). This gives me a smidgen of sympathy for her.

I even toyed with the idea of doing a rewrite of season 7 where Buffy is one of the Potentials (and a grim one since I'd assume her family was dead or at least she was forced to flee to save them as well as herself) rather than the Slayer (and the Slayer would act like season 7 Buffy with all the terrible decisions she was making that pushed the plot armor to the limits, IMO)...and I'd see her being somewhat like (though not the same as) Kennedy. (Though I'd find the interactions between Potential Buffy and Kennedy as interesting as Potential Buffy and the Slayer General).


But if I'd been there, even as a Potential, I can say we'd loathe each other. I would not put up with what I call her "Snyder technique" in training Potentials and don't see why she was put in charge anyway (save maybe Buffy loathed them, which I can understand, and this was her passive aggressive revenge against them all). If I felt in charge somehow, even as a Scooby, I'd smack her down fast and make it clear we're not actually obligated to shelter and feed and protect her (nor is she obligated to stay so if she doesn't like it then bugger off), and that would be doubly true if she were to come onto me the way she glommed onto Willow.

If I were a Potential I'd be in her face as much as she'd be in mine, and I think I'd dislike her even more than I would if I was Buffy. I didn't see Kennedy as assertive or driven like say Kendra or teen Buffy (who I'd be able to stand), she was domineering with a sadistic streak who assumed she was the boss which comes off as downright bullying (and some scenes definitely are). That would not fly with me as a Potential. Even in real life, a girl like her getting in my face back when I was a teen would lead to mutual violence (I will grant that Kennedy is no coward and has great resolve so she wouldn't back down anymore than I would, and we'd both be bloody), and I can only imagine what the intense stress of apocalyptic evil, Bringer attacks, life in shambles, and all that would do to my patience for crappy behavior by a fellow Potential who saw it as all about herself rather than all of us being in the same boat.

So all in all, why I don't hate Kennedy, I'm not fond of the character either.
 
DeadlyDuo
DeadlyDuo
I wouldn't even call it the "Snyder technique", that's an insult to Snyder. Snyder never got in someone's face, called them maggot, make them do push ups and publicly humiliate them in front of their peers.

DeadlyDuo

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I would like to know why Kennedy ticks some people off as much as she does. Sure she was rude to Buffy but why is that such a big deal 🤷‍♀️ Kennedy has some scenes that show she has some admirable qualities. It's to each their own though of course :)
First there is her arrival with her looking down her nose at Buffy immediately upon meeting her. Buffy wasn't even aware that Giles was turning up with Kennedy and the other two. She literally opens the door and in they stroll. Then Kennedy basically invites herself to sleep in Willow's bed, even though Willow is clearly uncomfortable with this idea.

Secondly, Kennedy witters on about wanting to be a slayer, yet skives off going to the desert with Giles and the other potentials for training (even Buffy goes to the desert with Giles and she's an actual slayer), and tricks Willow into a date. Kennedy also says she thinks magic is "fairy tale crap" even though magic is what introduced Willow to Tara. Tillow's relationship flourished as they practiced magic together so it is special to Willow. Kennedy doesn't get points for going "but it's ok if you like it" because she already expressed a negative opinion of it. It's one thing to not be into something as much as another person, in this case magic, but to basically call it "a bunch of fairy tale crap" to that person's face when it means something to that person, is way out of line. Then we have the kiss that turns Willow into Warren. Willow is clearly not over Tara, yet Kennedy moves in for the kill anyway. A kiss caused the problem, Willow is crying up to the heavens and begging for Tara's forgiveness for "letting her be dead" (a big red flag that somebody is still grieving and not ready to move on yet) and Kennedy's answer is to....kiss her again because apparently the thing that caused the problem is also the solution to it. She also avoids the majority of the final battle when it would've made much more sense for her and Xander to switch places since he has the actual lifelong friendship with Willow, or you know, actually be in the hole fighting alongside the other potentials.

Thirdly is the way she speaks to Willow. Whenever Willow sticks up for Buffy or looks like she's about to, Kennedy jumps down her throat because as far as Kennedy is concerned, Willow should be siding with her over Buffy despite the fact that Willow has been friends with Buffy for 7 years and they've gone through a lot together. Kennedy has a real thing against Buffy, which turns out to be because Buffy isn't letting her have a bigger say.

Fourthly, is the training yard scene. Chloe's "crime" was that she confused her left and her right and turned the wrong way. She was still doing the moves, she was still participating in training, she just ended up facing in the wrong direction. However, apparently that is enough to warrant Kennedy getting in her face, calling her "maggot", publicly humiliating her in front of the other potentials by making her do push ups and the GLOATING about what she's done to Wood. When the First basically says "you helped cause this" in regards to Chloe's suicide (and it wasn't lying because the truth would be much more damaging), Kennedy shows no remorse for her actions whatsoever, doesn't even question whether or not she was indeed partly to blame. She acknowledges she's a brat, which is worse than if she hadn't, because it means Kennedy KNOWS her behaviour is unpleasant yet she really doesn't give a damn enough to change it.

Lastly, is the mutiny. The vineyard went badly and Kennedy is essentially kicking Buffy whilst she is down. Kennedy is leading the mutiny (it doesn't help Wood is also stabbing Buffy in the back), and why? Because Buffy isn't letting Kennedy have a bigger say. She outright admits this to Faith "I thought I'd get a bigger say with you in charge, but you just keep shutting me down". Even in the immediate aftermath of Buffy's departure when everyone is trying to talk at once and Xander says that maybe not everyone should have a say, you can hear Kennedy say "perhaps those of us who have been her longest should get a bigger say". As the last of the original three potentials, Kennedy is clearly referring to herself. Also during the mutiny Willow stands up to say something, hasn't even opened her mouth yet, and Kennedy is there screaming at her "Why are you always sticking up for her?" and Willow's reaction is not one of confidence as she says "I'm not".

There is nothing likeable about Kennedy.
 

Athene

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But if I'd been there, even as a Potential, I can say we'd loathe each other. I would not put up with what I call her "Snyder technique" in training Potentials and don't see why she was put in charge anyway (save maybe Buffy loathed them, which I can understand, and this was her passive aggressive revenge against them all). If I felt in charge somehow, even as a Scooby, I'd smack her down fast and make it clear we're not actually obligated to shelter and feed and protect her (nor is she obligated to stay so if she doesn't like it then bugger off), and that would be doubly true if she were to come onto me the way she glommed onto Willow.
I haven't really thought about what I'd think of Kennedy if I were a potential with her. Maybe she wouldn't be my kind of person but I'd be so frightened about the war that I'd want to emulate her confidence when it comes to fighting so I'd like her enough in that sense 🤷‍♀️


First there is her arrival with her looking down her nose at Buffy immediately upon meeting her. Buffy wasn't even aware that Giles was turning up with Kennedy and the other two. She literally opens the door and in they stroll. Then Kennedy basically invites herself to sleep in Willow's bed, even though Willow is clearly uncomfortable with this idea
I don't see what the big offense is here. I agree with your description but I don't see how any of that makes Kennedy hate-worthy.




Secondly, Kennedy witters on about wanting to be a slayer, yet skives off going to the desert with Giles and the other potentials for training (even Buffy goes to the desert with Giles and she's an actual slayer),
So Kennedy blows off the desert training because she thinks it's pointless. Buffy went because she was interested in what the desert could tell her not because she was ordered to. Kennedy wasn't interested and so didn't go. Still Kennedy very much wants to be a slayer and she comes through when she's most needed. More than the other potentials that went to the desert.
Kennedy also says she thinks magic is "fairy tale crap"
She's entitled to that opinion and to tell Willow that opinion. It's not like Willow is offended and Kennedy goes on and on about it because she doesn't and Willow isn't bothered about it. I think that it was unhealthy for Willow to see kissing a new person as an insult to Tara so I'm okay with that being worked through with Kennedy.
Kennedy didn't avoid the final battle that wouldn't make any sense considering in every other battle she's thrown herself in front of the others and fought. Let's not forget how she was asking to go and back Buffy up in her fight with the ubervamp. But no apparently she has a personal problem with Buffy.

Kennedy has a real thing against Buffy, which turns out to be because Buffy isn't letting her have a bigger say.
Kennedy thinks she's right so of course she wants Willow to side with her but it's not a personal attack against Buffy.

which turns out to be because Buffy isn't letting her have a bigger say.
Yes, Kennedy (and most of the characters let's be honest) are unhappy that they feel like their voice isn't being taken into account by Buffy when formulating decisions etc. Kennedy does think that Faith will listen to her more than Buffy did but why is that such a bad thing. Of course Kennedy wants to be heard.
Kennedy getting in her face, calling her "maggot", publicly humiliating her in front of the other potentials by making her do push ups and the GLOATING about what she's done to Wood. When the First basically says "you helped cause this" in regards to Chloe's suicide (and it wasn't lying because the truth would be much more damaging), Kennedy shows no remorse for her actions whatsoever, doesn't even question whether or not she was indeed partly to blame. She acknowledges she's a brat, which is worse than if she hadn't, because it means Kennedy KNOWS her behaviour is unpleasant yet she really doesn't give a damn enough to change it.
Kennedy was absolutely out of order for what she said to Chloe however I'm not going to believe that Kennedy was why Chloe killed herself based on the first's word. Maybe if we saw more scenes of Kennedy being rude to Chloe specifically I would call that bullying but one rude comment doesn't cause a suicide.
So I can see how Kennedy is not an entirely pleasant person but she's also not evil.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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I like Kennedy. She has all the qualities I admire in a person. She is funny, charming, caring, sensitive, assertive, ambitious and brave. A lot of her dialogue is really good, especially in "Killer in Me." She may be a little rough around the ages, but she is young. I was ten times worse at her age.

I wish we had gotten more Will and Ken-doll in the comics. They are like the ultimate power couple. A witch and a slayer—strengths of both, weaknesses of neither.

And Kennedy, no super powers, wrestling the shotgun from a police officer twice her size to save Faith, may be the most badass moment in the entire show.
 
Athene
Athene
It was nice to see Dawn fight the policemen too 😁

DeadlyDuo

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I don't see what the big offense is here. I agree with your description but I don't see how any of that makes Kennedy hate-worthy.
It's Buffy's house, Kennedy is a guest there. It's basic human decency to not look down your nose at the person who is basically providing you with a safe roof over your head so you don't get murdered by bringers.

Also a bed is a personal space. You share it with someone you trust and feel connected to romantically or platonically (and who won't murder you in your sleep), otherwise you sleep alone. Even more so than that, Tillow shared a bed, meaning that one side was Tara's. As we see from TKIM, Willow isn't ready to move on, so essentially Kennedy is inviting herself to sleep in Tara's spot.

So Kennedy blows off the desert training because she thinks it's pointless. Buffy went because she was interested in what the desert could tell her not because she was ordered to. Kennedy wasn't interested and so didn't go. Still Kennedy very much wants to be a slayer and she comes through when she's most needed. More than the other potentials that went to the desert.
Giles didn't take the potentials to the desert for the fun of it, it was part of the potential's training; and as a potential, Kennedy should've gone. It's an example of how she thinks herself above the other potentials, even though they're all in the same boat aka hiding out at Buffy's for protection.

If Kennedy wants to be a team player, she needs to start playing as part of a team, not cherry picking what she does and doesn't want to do. Likewise during the training yard, Kennedy should've been training with the rest of the potentials, not barking orders at them.

She's entitled to that opinion and to tell Willow that opinion. It's not like Willow is offended and Kennedy goes on and on about it because she doesn't and Willow isn't bothered about it.
Consider the difference between:

"I'm not into the whole magic scene but it's cool that you are"

and

"I think magic is a bunch of fairy tale crap (even though it's played an important part in your life) but you can like it if you want"

You can think something is rubbish but don't call it "crap" to somebody's face when it's been an important part of their life. If Willow had never gotten involved in magic, she never would've met Tara. Also learning magic improved Willow's confidence, it means something to her. Essentially what Kennedy has done is made clear that she thinks magic is a load of crap but Willow can continue engaging with it if she wants even though magic is still a load of crap.

I think that it was unhealthy for Willow to see kissing a new person as an insult to Tara so I'm okay with that being worked through with Kennedy.
You know who sees romantic interaction with a new person as a betrayal towards their deceased partner? People who aren't yet ready to move on from their dead lover.

Moving on takes time and it's an emotional state of feeling ready to begin a new romantic relationship without seeing it as a betrayal to the dead partner. Willow was not at that stage yet Kennedy didn't care. Moving on is important, and some people struggle, but it is something that can't and shouldn't be forced.

A common "defence" of Kennedy that I often see is that she "forced" Willow to move on because otherwise Willow wouldn't do it. Grieving doesn't have a time limit, it takes as long as it takes. Fred would be more in line with the kind of person Willow is attracted to (eg similar personality to Oz and Tara) and you would be able to see Willow feeling guilt that she's developing feelings for another person. However, I doubt Willow would be begging forgiveness from Tara, because Fred isn't pushy like Kennedy. Fred and Willow would bond, you've got the whole science vs magic angle, Willow would feel attraction to Fred and confide in Xander about what it could mean, but because Fred isn't the type to push for a romantic relationship when Willow isn't ready, there would be no kiss (at least not until the very end of the season as a display to show that Willow is finally ready to move on.).

In the episode where Willow crosses over to Angel, she and Fred bond and Willow was obviously feeling some sort of romantic connection because she felt the need to inform Fred she had a girlfriend (ergo they couldn't develop their flirtation further). Whether or not Fred felt the same is slightly irrelevant as the point is that Willow felt a romantic attraction towards Fred. There is absolutely no reason why Willow would go for Kennedy and if I remember correctly, Willow actually cheats on her with a snake demon lady and ends their relationship.

Kennedy didn't avoid the final battle that wouldn't make any sense considering in every other battle she's thrown herself in front of the others and fought. Let's not forget how she was asking to go and back Buffy up in her fight with the ubervamp. But no apparently she has a personal problem with Buffy.
Kennedy was sat with Willow far away from the fighting, she was nowhere near the Hellmouth hole. Like I said, it would've been better if Xander and Kennedy had switched places so that Xander stayed with Willow whilst Kennedy guarded the hole ready to take out any escaped ubervamps. As it is, Kennedy avoids the worst part of the final battle and is basically a delivery girl who turns up right before everyone decides to get the hell out of there.

Kennedy thinks she's right so of course she wants Willow to side with her but it's not a personal attack against Buffy.
Willow's known Kennedy two minutes in comparison to Buffy, why wouldn't she side with her best friend? The point is that Kennedy thinks she's entitled to having Willow side with her because they're dating. However all we see is Willow being dominated by Kennedy in the relationship.

Yes, Kennedy (and most of the characters let's be honest) are unhappy that they feel like their voice isn't being taken into account by Buffy when formulating decisions etc. Kennedy does think that Faith will listen to her more than Buffy did but why is that such a bad thing. Of course Kennedy wants to be heard.
Kenendy was brown nosing Faith something chronic before the mutiny. She then just so happens to want to instil Faith as leader. She openly admits she thought she'd get a bigger say with Faith in charge. All this suggests that Kennedy was trying to manipulate her way into a higher position. Consider the fact that the moment Willow and Kennedy are officially "dating", Kennedy is inserting herself into Scooby meetings. None of the scoobies outside the core four got automatic entry, they had to earn their place, so why is Kennedy suddenly there?

All Kennedy cares about is getting a bigger say. After Buffy's departure, everyone is in a high state of agitation and Kennedy's first words are basically about how she should get a bigger say in things.

Kennedy was absolutely out of order for what she said to Chloe however I'm not going to believe that Kennedy was why Chloe killed herself based on the first's word. Maybe if we saw more scenes of Kennedy being rude to Chloe specifically I would call that bullying but one rude comment doesn't cause a suicide.
So I can see how Kennedy is not an entirely pleasant person but she's also not evil.
Kennedy is not the sole cause of Chloe's suicide, but she is very likely the straw that broke the camel's back. That final thing that pushed Chloe over the edge so to speak. The point isn't whether or not the first is telling the truth, it's the fact that Kennedy doesn't even question whether it is her fault. Another character can reassure her she's not to blame all they want but Kennedy should've had that moment of doubt like a normal person would, even if ultimately it was decided that Kennedy wasn't to blame. As it stands, it seems like Kennedy doesn't think she did anything wrong with the way she treated Chloe.
 
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AlphaFoxtrot

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I have no particular love for the character. However, it doesn't matter. The Producers and Studios of the world have established EU means nothing to them, and that you were foolish to care, go die, so disregard it, and work out an ending that does. As Angel said, what does dead really mean in our circle?
 

NothingVentured

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Kennedy is not the sole cause of Chloe's suicide, but she is very likely the straw that broke the camel's back. That final thing that pushed Chloe over the edge so to speak. The point isn't whether or not the first is telling the truth, it's the fact that Kennedy doesn't even question whether it is her fault. Another character can reassure her she's not to blame all they want but Kennedy should've had that moment of doubt like a normal person would, even if ultimately it was decided that Kennedy wasn't to blame. As it stands, it seems like Kennedy doesn't think she did anything wrong with the way she treated Chloe.
Here's a hot take on this: It was The First's fault and yes, Chloe was a weak idiot. If Willow had fallen for the First's BS, she would have been the same. Ditto Angel in S3. I hate how that's all been rewritten to suggest she was some depressed kid. She was duped into it. While tragic, that's all it was.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Here's a hot take on this: It was The First's fault and yes, Chloe was a weak idiot. If Willow had fallen for the First's BS, she would have been the same. Ditto Angel in S3. I hate how that's all been rewritten to suggest she was some depressed kid. She was duped into it. While tragic, that's all it was.
The First is pretty open about talking Chloe into suicide but it also specifically mentioned how Chloe "really heard" when Kennedy called her "maggot", the implication being that Kennedy's actions towards Chloe actually aided the First in getting her to commit suicide. However, the point isn't whether or not the First was lying, it's the fact that Kennedy's basically been told she helped cause Chloe's suicide, yet she doesn't even question herself one iota. A compassionate person would at least wonder if there was some truth in what the First said eg if Kennedy hadn't been so nasty, would Chloe still be alive? But Kennedy doesn't do that, she just carries on business as usual. Even if all the other characters were to reassure her she wasn't to blame, Kennedy questioning herself would at least show she's reflecting on what she did. Instead, she just doesn't give a damn.
 

Honoria Dedlock

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I can't believe I'm defending Kennedy here, as I can't stand her, but I think her behaviour in season seven makes more sense if you take into account the themes of that season. What is a slayer? The final season addresses the meaning of Buffy's calling more than any other, albeit sloppily.

The slayer is like a soldier -- an emotionless tool of another institution (the army is the government's tool, the slayer is beholden to the watchers and a 'primoridal' power). They're fighting a war, but the reality is that war is institutionalised rage, and no matter how respectable Americans think their veterans to be, all soldiers are trained to be killing machines. No room for emotions and Dr. Phil.

Kennedy is a accurate example of what happens to a soldier. They become cold killers...nasty and mean. So did Buffy in season seven. They could have made a brilliant sending off to the show had they harnessed this theme more maturely.
 
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Ethan Reigns

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Secondly, Kennedy witters on about wanting to be a slayer, yet skives off going to the desert with Giles and the other potentials for training (even Buffy goes to the desert with Giles and she's an actual slayer), and tricks Willow into a date. Kennedy also says she thinks magic is "fairy tale crap" even though magic is what introduced Willow to Tara. Tillow's relationship flourished as they practiced magic together so it is special to Willow. Kennedy doesn't get points for going "but it's ok if you like it" because she already expressed a negative opinion of it. It's one thing to not be into something as much as another person, in this case magic, but to basically call it "a bunch of fairy tale crap" to that person's face when it means something to that person, is way out of line. Then we have the kiss that turns Willow into Warren. Willow is clearly not over Tara, yet Kennedy moves in for the kill anyway. A kiss caused the problem, Willow is crying up to the heavens and begging for Tara's forgiveness for "letting her be dead" (a big red flag that somebody is still grieving and not ready to move on yet) and Kennedy's answer is to....kiss her again because apparently the thing that caused the problem is also the solution to it. She also avoids the majority of the final battle when it would've made much more sense for her and Xander to switch places since he has the actual lifelong friendship with Willow, or you know, actually be in the hole fighting alongside the other potentials.
Kennedy does not pretend to be into the same things as Willow. It would have been more damning if she had feigned interest just to further ensnare Willow. But like Spike, she doesn't think anything worthwhile can come from it.

The kiss didn't turn Willow into Warren, Amy's spell did. Furthermore, the spell was not specific but was intended to look into the target's psyche and determine the most appropriate form to take. Turning her into the person she hated and killed would be an expected response. Kennedy's kiss broke the grief long enough to disconnect it from Willow. Willow feels ashamed to have temporarily moved on but I have seen the resullts of the love for a dead person lasting the rest of the other person's life and it was tragedy. The woman in the apartment next to us was born about 1900 and had one true love who went off to the Great War (before they called it WWI) and died. She went through all her life with no one. Think about it - the roaring twenties flapper era, the depression, WWII, the postwar boom and the stagflation of the 1970's (when we met her) and she had no one throughout that time. And she could have - even though she was in her 70's it was obvious she had always been an attractive woman. Kennedy's kiss prevented all of that.

You don't trust something as valuable as the scythe to just anyone to take from Willow to the battle - you have to have someone with power in case demons accost you on the way. There is no way you could say Kennedy was playing hooky from the battle - her first comment was, Ì could get used to this.`` And as for Willow wanting a bigger say in things Look at the stupid decisions that were covered over by the MacGuffins of the scythe and the medallion and in fact all the decisions Buffy made. If I were to be sent into a war, I would like as much say about things as possible even though Buffy had said, `We just became an army,`` I don`t see officer material in Buffy.
 
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