Is Spike a misogynist and/or a slut?

[Silverspike]

"Spike calls certain women that he knows by derogatory terms - and he does the same with men. Spike is outspoken to the point of being crude, and he loves to both annoy and upset people. It gives him a big happy. Once he has a chip and is unable to kill or injure humans he tends to vent, and blame."

Yeah, I agree. Right from the onset Spike was an 'equal opportunities insulter'. Aiming his snark at both men and women equally. 😀

I've always got the impression that Spike adores and admires strong women (Buffy, Joyce ect) where as Warren didn't.

Where as Warren, is human and imo right from the start comes across as a the very essence of a misogynistic male which is how we're meant to see him.

 

[Aqua]

He doesn't give me a particularly misogynist vibe.. Something of the opposite.

 

[nightshade]

Can we keep any insults out of the discussion please

 

[bespangeled]

Nope, the bot went out- that's how Warren programmed her- and then Spike woke up and chased after her. They didn't 'go out slaying together'. Spike just wanted to screw the nicely shaped appliance.

Yeah - she had a programmed slay time - and he was in a state of post coital bliss. Nicely shaped appliance was fun in bed.😛

Warren programmed them both so we don't know. Obviously Spike didn't know about all of Buffybot's programming otherwise he wouldn't have let it get away from her and get found out.

Spike gave Warren the specs - he knew exactly what had happened when he woke up.

No mention of the fight in the crypt?

Buffybot and Spike are circling each other, braced for a fight. Buffybot holds a stake. Buffybot lunges at Spike with the stake. He ducks it, comes up under her, ends up holding her close from behind, his mouth at her ear. They're both breathing fast. She SPINS, throwing him off her back, knocking him onto his back on his bier. She jumps up and straddles him, one hand at his throat, the other holding the stake at his heart. She RIPS his shirt open and presses the stake against his bare chest. Spike GROWLS and arches up against the stake. She hesitates.

No, their both bad and creepy and that both characters have control issues with women. They want a have a slave of their very own. Spike regards more women as bitches than Warren does- so just going by the numbers he's must be more of a misogynist, right?

I mean, if we're using blanket statements like 'Warren hates all women' and 'Spike loves all women.' 🙄

How about actually backing up these claims? Or explaining how Spike's healthy relationships with most women are still misogynistic?
And when did anyone say that Spike loves all women?

And now the insults come out. As entirely expected. 'You don't agree with me so you're ignorant/stupid. '
Whatever, you have a shaky grasp of the science of psychology as you've shown below so I'll bow out now.

That's not an insult - that is a fact. You do not agree with the dictionary definition - you have said this repeatedly. That doesn't make the dictionary definition wrong.

And I am not surprised you are bowing out - since you appears to have run out of arguments that are based in debatable facts. Insulting me - without using any particulars that can be debated - is also part of a familiar package.

I think that Caleb and Warren are different types of misogynists- one is overt the other is not. I also think, as I have shown with his actions, that Spike has a deeply twisted view of women which has a lot of strong misogynistic elements- to me it makes him a fascinating character- that conflict between his hate and his love.

Never said Spike loved women, or that he was a women's rights supporter. But whatever twisted views he may have do not preclude healthy long term attachments with individual women - who have been named repeatedly. That means he is not a misogynist, as the dictionaries define it. He does not feel or show disgust toward women.

But there are some people here (and elsewhere) who obviously think that Spike never lies, (he does) is utterly honorable (to a degree he is) doesn't brag about things that never happened (he has), loves all women (even though he tries to kill/hurt the strong ones/resents the power that they have over him) and is just all-round a real paragon who just happens to be a demon.

And I am certainly not one of them, as you well know. I've probably called Spike on as many negative characteristics as you have. Put the straw man away and debate individual points.

Fear/phobia is a psychological disorder and is not equivalent to racism/prejudice/misogyny. Not all psychological disorders are alike.

Very true - but fears are a good example of an all inclusive thought process. Gynophobia is fear of women. Misogyny is disgust or hatred of women. Neither term allows for exceptions.

There are plenty of people who hate one breeds of dog and not all dogs. There is no equivalent. Try harder, or actually please don't.

Yes, someone who hates dogs is called misocynist - but hating one breed or an individual dog does not make you a misocynist. Someone who hates women is a misogynist. Hating a few women at times does not make you a misogynist.

 

[bespangeled]

Can we keep any insults out of the discussion please

Yes - but is it insulting to point out a fact? I need parameters for this one. I am being civil - in fact, I'm in now way angry or upset.

 

[nightshade]

Then be polite, and use kindness instead of harshness. Read what you write before you post it, and think is there a way I can say the same thing but in a kinder way.

 

[sosa lola]

I've noticed lately that words like misogynist, slut-shaming, and hate of women get thrown around a lot in fandom. Probably because feminism is so cool now that every single male in the show is misogynist and God forbid if any man simply happens to insult one woman he actually dislikes on the show, he's accused of hating all women. It doesn't matter if he respects other women's decisions or follow other women's lead willingly or is attracted to a woman because she's strong - nah, just a simple, "What you said is stupid" means that he hates all women.

I don't deny that BtVS characters do say a lot of slurs that are not acceptable nowadays like skank and poof and slut and whore, but keep in mind that BtVS is a show from the 90s, which means most of what is wrong to say today used to be acceptable back then. Like calling someone "****boy" or "douchbag" or "nerd" or "geek" today may not be acceptable in the future.

I don't really dwell on slurs especially when a character does something incredibly remarkable like saving the world or a main character or backing someone up or being there for someone who's hurt. So, while Spike does react like a typical Nice Guy when rejected by Buffy, and that was problematic, he later proves he's above that when he endured torture to protect Dawn and later kept helping Buffy despite the fact that he knows he won't get sex in return - S7 - while the real definition of Nice Guy is that once rejected that guy doesn't stick around anymore because the only reason he's there for the woman is to because he wants to be rewarded with sex in the end.

 

[sosa lola]

Yes, someone who hates dogs is called misocynist - but hating one breed or an individual dog does not make you a misocynist. Someone who hates women is a misogynist. Hating a few women at times does not make you a misogynist.

I agree. And honestly, some women deserve to be disliked - not all of us are angels - there are women who murder, women who abuse their children, women who are racists, women who bully others because they're in the position of power and so on.

 

[Mr Trick]

I agree. And honestly, some women deserve to be disliked - not all of us are angels - there are women who murder, women who abuse their children, women who are racists, women who bully others because they're in the position of power and so on.

As long as its because of who they are and not because of their gender then I agree.

Nope, the bot went out- that's how Warren programmed her- and then Spike woke up and chased after her. They didn't 'go out slaying together'. Spike just wanted to screw the nicely shaped appliance.



Warren programmed them both so we don't know. Obviously Spike didn't know about all of Buffybot's programming otherwise he wouldn't have let it get away from her and get found out.



No, their both bad and creepy and that both characters have control issues with women. They want a have a slave of their very own. Spike regards more women as bitches than Warren does- so just going by the numbers he's must be more of a misogynist, right?

I mean, if we're using blanket statements like 'Warren hates all women' and 'Spike loves all women.' 🙄



And now the insults come out. As entirely expected. 'You don't agree with me so you're ignorant/stupid. '
Whatever, you have a shaky grasp of the science of psychology as you've shown below so I'll bow out now.

I think that Caleb and Warren are different types of misogynists- one is overt the other is not. I also think, as I have shown with his actions, that Spike has a deeply twisted view of women which has a lot of strong misogynistic elements- to me it makes him a fascinating character- that conflict between his hate and his love.

But there are some people here (and elsewhere) who obviously think that Spike never lies, (he does) is utterly honorable (to a degree he is) doesn't brag about things that never happened (he has), loves all women (even though he tries to kill/hurt the strong ones/resents the power that they have over him) and is just all-round a real paragon who just happens to be a demon.



Fear/phobia is a psychological disorder and is not equivalent to racism/prejudice/misogyny. Not all psychological disorders are alike.



There are plenty of people who hate one breeds of dog and not all dogs. There is no equivalent. Try harder, or actually please don't.

But its a robot! Its not the same as him doing it to the real Buffy. And that is at a point before Spike really starts to have feelings for her. And like I said before somethings which are frowned on in real life actually proof funny and interesting on TV and this is one of them. Don't forget that if you read misogynist overtones into everything that appears creepy on television then you would actually watch very little TV.

I don't think numbers really prove anything. The fact that Warren has the human right to chose to respect women and clearly doesn't do it makes him a misogynist. Unlike Spike he shows no remorse for any of his actions. Spike has shown much more respect for women/girls including Joyce, Willow, Tara, Fred, Dawn,Buffy and even in his own twisted way Dru than Warren ever could. And back on the robot thing. Warren created it originally without that then Spike never would have had the idea.

 

[EVIL UU]

Where as Warren, is human and imo right from the start comes across as a the very essence of a misogynistic male which is how we're meant to see him.

But they do the same damn shit, Spike and Warren. Both try to kill a slayer. Both attempt a rape. Both want to brainwash their exes. How can one be a misogynist and the other not? Same acts. Does the fact that Spike is attractive and Warren is not has anything to do with that? I mean, I get it, Spike's hot but come on, this is double morality.

 

[Mr Trick]

But they do the same damn shit, Spike and Warren. Both try to kill a slayer. Both attempt a rape. Both want to brainwash their exes. How can one be a misogynist and the other not? Same acts. Does the fact that Spike is attractive and Warren is not has anything to do with that? I mean, I get it, Spike's hot but come on, this is double morality.

But trying to kill a Slayer doesn't make you a misogynist. Its the overall actions of both and their attitudes which define it. Warren has a true dislike for women, and acts against them in a cold and aggressive way, for which he shows no remorse. Spike has shown plenty of remorse, and for the most part doesn't show a bias against women at all. Spike is of course a more complex character because of being a vampire. He has that excuse whereas Warren has more freedom to choose how he behaves. Its that simple.

 

[sosa lola]

As long as its because of who they are and not because of their gender then I agree.

Of course. I also think that's how a lot of BtVS's men work: Spike kills Slayers because they're a challenge and no vampire was ever able to a kill a Slayer - because Slayers are far stronger than vampires. It's because of who a Slayer is: a vampire killer. Not because they're women. If Slayers were men, Spike would have been after them too. Because Slayers are after vampires after all.

 

[Silverspike]

But they do the same damn shit, Spike and Warren. Both try to kill a slayer. Both attempt a rape. Both want to brainwash their exes. How can one be a misogynist and the other not? Same acts. Does the fact that Spike is attractive and Warren is not has anything to do with that? I mean, I get it, Spike's hot but come on, this is double morality.

No because in the Buffyverse being a souled human is seen as being a big thing morally as you're supposed to have a conscience which an unsouled Vampire does not. It's struggle a for Spike to do what is right because of this 'handicap'. Warren has no such excuse.

"I mean, I get it, Spike's hot but come on, this is double morality."

I can't believe you put it that way. Of course not.

 

[EVIL UU]

It's because of who a Slayer is: a vampire killer. Not because they're women. If Slayers were men, Spike would have been after them too.

See, I don't know. For Spike hunting slayers is inherently rooted in sexuality to the point where he outright compares killing a slayer to having sex with one. I doubt, had slayers been male, that he would have become so obsessed with them.

@Silverspike

So, according to what you say, a soulless vampire is not evil? I disagree. I think that vampires know the difference between good and evil very well. That's why Spike decides to get a soul - because he understands what he did.

 

[Silverspike]

Well judging by the show souless demons know evil and good, but due to their souless state are drawn to evil before all else.

 

[bespangeled]

But they do the same damn shit, Spike and Warren. Both try to kill a slayer. Both attempt a rape. Both want to brainwash their exes. How can one be a misogynist and the other not? Same acts. Does the fact that Spike is attractive and Warren is not has anything to do with that? I mean, I get it, Spike's hot but come on, this is double morality.

Spike has several healthy relationships with women - Warren doesn't. That alone takes Spike out of the misogynist category.
Spike is peculiarly vulnerable to slayers and hunts as a thrill seeker - it's a predator vs prey situation.
Brainwash exes - not really comparable. Spike is dealing with a demon who could bite his knackers off, and he gives up the idea of magic because he realizes she would prefer torture. He wants her strong and he wants her to love him. Warren just wants a mindless sex slave.

Misogyny is about a worldview - not a single relationship. Warren sums it up well:

KATRINA: How could you say you loved me, and do that to me?
WARREN: (suddenly) Because you deserved it, bitch!

WARREN: (nasty laugh) Women. You know, you're just like the rest of them. Mind games.

After the AR Spike is so filled with remorse he goes to get a soul - and this is what Warren says and does after he kills Katrina for objecting to being used as a sex slave.

See, I don't know. For Spike hunting slayers is inherently rooted in sexuality to the point where he outright compares killing a slayer to having sex with one. I doubt, had slayers been male, that he would have become so obsessed with them.

Well, I'm not all that sure Spike is completely straight - I don't think demons worry about such niceties. The hunt is the turn-on, the battle and the win - not the sex of the loser. He is putting his own life on the line to take down someone who is strong, faster, and who knows how to kill his kind.

So, according to what you say, a soulless vampire is not evil? I disagree. I think that vampires know the difference between good and evil very well. That's why Spike decides to get a soul - because he understands what he did.

I agree, they do know the difference, but without a soul evil is easier and a lot more fun! If Spike had never been chipped I don't think he would ever have turned his back on evil and sought his soul. He really was stuck between being a monster and being a man.

 

[Kana]

I've always argued that attempting to judge a soulless vampire is a difficult task. While vampires clearly have the same intellectual understanding of human morality as their human predecessors, their psychological response to such moral acts changes significantly. Some may say that they lack moral sensibilities while others argue that they are free from the binds that tie us to human behavioural conformity.

The problem is that misogyny is contingent to that morality.

How Spike Treats Slayers

As people have already pointed out, it's likely that if Slayers were male, he'd still go after them for the challenge. However, people will (and I think have) argued that there has a sexual element to his treatment of Slayers and they'd be right.

SPIKE
(exhilarated) Well, all right. Got the moves, don't you? I'm gonna ride you hard before I put you away, luv.

NIKKI
You sure about that? You actually look a little wet and limp to me. And I ain't your "luv."

Well boys and girls, if you can't see the sexual connations in that exchange, then maybe you're too young for this thread, but all that really tells us is that he's attracted to females, at least primarily. Just because he has a sexual attraction to his prey, it doesn't mean his dominance over his prey is about sexual dominance or to do with hatred of women as a group.

The problem is that vampires are generally a "want, take and have" species so of course there would a sexual component to their predatory nature.

So as long as Spike was soulless, he seemed to struggle with his own moral identity and his treatment of women would be contigent to that, but I don't think that's exclusive to women.

Is Spike a misogynist? I don't think so. Is he a slut? Really? With characters such as Angel, Darla, Faith etc?

 

[thetopher]

Yeah - she had a programmed slay time - and he was in a state of post coital bliss. Nicely shaped appliance was fun in bed.

So you're admitting that you're wrong. Buffybot was just a sex object- not some noble attempt to guard Sunnydale in the slayer's absence? I'm shocked. 😛

Spike gave Warren the specs - he knew exactly what had happened when he woke up.

No mention of the fight in the crypt?

No, Spike was surprised when BBot went wandering off- presumably if it had run into the real slayer out on patrol then he would've been found out. Spike is stupid but he would've tried his best to keep his sextoy under wraps from anybody who could possible object. 🙄

And again, the fight is just a twisted part of Spike's sex fantasy. Domination/triumph over the slayer. He beats her because she can't 'resist him' *vomits*
He beats 'her' and she gives in- he has power over her. I mean, its not Buffy in any way apart from looks but its still what Spike wants.

How about actually backing up these claims? Or explaining how Spike's healthy relationships with most women are still misogynistic?

What healthy relationships? Soulless Spike barely hangs out with anybody enough to call it a relationship- certainly not Willow or Tara. Joyce plays into his mummy issues so she gets a pass.
Again, strong women who he sees as having power over him? Darn right there's some resentment there and he lets it be known. I mean 'bitch is gonna see a change.' that wasn't aimed at anyone, that was Spike thinking out loud (he's dramatic that way) and what thoughts they were.

That's not an insult - that is a fact. You do not agree with the dictionary definition - you have said this repeatedly.

I have simply said that misogyny was MORE than just a dictionary definition- as any psychologist or sociologist will tell you it can also be cultural, it can be ingrained from other sources sometimes subconsciously, it doesn't have to be all-pervasive but merely effect how somebody views certain types of woman. Even some women can fall pray to misogyny as well (subconsciously or because of environmental factors).

Basically its far more complex than 'if you like some women then you can't have any misogynistic tendencies'. Pick a better argument because that has a... childlike simplicity to it. Maybe naive?

For that you insult me by calling me a denier of evolution. Nice.

That doesn't make the dictionary definition wrong.

I never said the dictionary definition was wrong, just that it wasn't an all-encompassing term for actual life. Look up sociology and misogynist and behold the wrong that is you.

And I am not surprised you are bowing out - since you appears to have run out of arguments that are based in debatable facts.

. Insulting me - without using any particulars that can be debated - is also part of a familiar package.

That is incredible coming from you. You have a habit of making up what other people say, simplifying their arguments to make them sound like straw-men ones and basically incapable of ration debate when it comes to Spike.

But whatever twisted views he may have do not preclude healthy long term attachments with individual women - who have been named repeatedly.

Like his Mum who he killed? Like Dru who he wanted to mind-control with magic? Like Buffy who he's assaulted and attempted to rape when he was purportedly in love with her? Where are these healthy long attachments he has with women?

Very true - but fears are a good example of an all inclusive thought process.

If you truly believe that fears such as arachnophobia are psychologically equivalent to misogyny then, I'm sorry, but you really don't know what you're talking about.


And to all those who say that Spike fights slayers only because they're strong: 1) That ignores the 'changes' that happen to Spike after 'LMPTM', see before hand he wasn't that bad- he loved his dear ol' mum so but after those events (that gave him his trigger-trauma mother rage) he's torturing people with rail-road spikes and acting borderline psychotic. So much so that Angelus et all have to duck and cover because of Spike's viciousness. That rage was caused by a woman- his mother- who viciously tore into him in such a way that the scars never left him until over a century later.
Parental issues is why Angelus was a massive bully and Spike hated strong women.
2) There are a fair number of demons out there that are capable of being a good fight for a brawler type, other ways to challenge yourself other than hunting down slayers- powerful, fearsome women

 

[Silverspike]

"Is Spike a misogynist? I don't think so. Is he a slut? Really? With characters such as Angel, Darla, Faith etc?"

Exactly. I completely agree. 🙂

 

[Buffy Summers]

Let's not start up this back and forth again. Anyone having goes at another member for the rest of this thread will be barred from it.