• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Is this anyone else's favorite season?

Dora

Scooby
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Messages
1,103
Age
54
I would have to disagree, Dawn got taken and Buffy literally went into a catatonic state, I think she would suffer more than Dawn would. Especially since Buffy becomes her mother.
Although Buffy had to deal with things that she definitely wouldn't have been able to deal with, she would have still ended up in debt, Giles would have left, the dynamic between the scoobies would have changed, and Buffy would be mourning the loss of both her mother and her sister (who is more like a daughter to her).
I know the trauma on Buffy from being dragged from heaven is very heavy on her but the fact that she failed to save someone who she loves so much would be heavy too, knowing that she could have saved her.

Dawn isn't Buffy and will react to things differently. Dawn has lost her mother and sister but Spike has also stepped into a father/brother role and Buffy's parental love for Dawn will make it affect Buffy more than it would Dawn.

I suppose it also depends on whether what would weigh more on her, the loss of losing perfect happiness or losing her whole family. I don't think that she would have had her epiphany about wanting to live though, because a very big part of that is down to Dawn, so we may not have got season 7 Buffy in the way she was.
Buffy knew Dawn was not her real sister and the monks had use her ...was Buffy love for Dawn natural in S6 or was it still part of the Spell left over from S5, when Buffy acted unreasonable and would have let the world end than have her non sister killed...by S7 Buffy has a conversation with Giles she would have let Dawn die because of what she had been through , as for Dawn no sympathy from me throwing Buffy out of her own house....Dawn is still a bitch
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
3,415
Age
38
Dawn was a spell. Technically, the memory of her would've faded (I believe they went that route with the comics which is one of the times they stay true to the TV canon), so it wouldn't have been horrible to Buffy. Buffy was violated to feel as she did about Dawn, and once the spell was destroyed, so would Buffy's feelings (much like the memories and feelings over Jonathan and Xander over miscast spells once the spell ended).

Just saying. I'm fine with how they did it, though I'm also one of those who thinks it should've ended with season 5.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,475
Age
49
As opposed to putting Buffy through the trauma of being dragged out of heaven and resurrected before a load of debt is dumped on her and none of the scoobies do anything to help? Giles might have given her money but he then abandoned her and that money quickly ran out because it had 4 people living off it with only Buffy putting any money into the household funds.

Also Dawn was in the exact same situation, she lost both her mother and sister, but she was more or less fine albeit missing them greatly. It would've been better for Buffy to be in that position than what she had to deal with in Season 6.
Buffy was already becoming depressed in season five and when Dawn is taken away she goes into a catatonic state. It's Dawn who stops Buffy from throwing herself off the tower in Bargaining part two and Dawn who really gives Buffy something to sing about and live and gets her out of her depression. Buffy's depression wasn't caused by being ripped out of heaven, or by Willow or by Spike - the first one accelerated a process that was already happening, the last was a way of coping with it.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,475
Age
49
Buffy knew Dawn was not her real sister and the monks had use her ...was Buffy love for Dawn natural in S6 or was it still part of the Spell left over from S5, when Buffy acted unreasonable and would have let the world end than have her non sister killed...by S7 Buffy has a conversation with Giles she would have let Dawn die because of what she had been through , as for Dawn no sympathy from me throwing Buffy out of her own house....Dawn is still a bitch
Which is funny because I have a lot of sympathy with Dawn over that and you can tell she hates doing it. In a sense she's right you can't do something as a united unit if someone is constantly acting against it. Rona's a bitch and Dawn calls her out on it, Anya's a bitch, Kennedy's a bitch after power and Wood is a bitch looking for petty vengeance since he didn't get his pound of flesh. Dawn isn't she's trying to do the right thing.
 
Last edited:

Dora

Scooby
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Messages
1,103
Age
54
Which is funny because I have a lot of sympathy with Dawn over that and you can tell she hates doing it. In a sense she's right you can't do something as a united unit if someone is constantly acting against it. Rona's a bitch and Dawn calls her out on it, Anya's a bitch, Kennedy's a bitch after power and Wood is a bitch looking for petty vengeance since he didn't get his pound of flesh. Dawn isn't she's trying to do the right thing.
Is it not Dawns final words that tell Buffy she cannot stay ?They are all wrong ganging up on Buffy , they have relied on Buffy for years , was it not that that made them bring her back , once she was back did they not just rely on her to pick up from where she let off ? not caring about her mental state ? in their haste to get Buffy back they never really considered where her soul might be , never even considered to dig up her coffin ? they just wanted her back to dump the next load of crap on her , after Buffy returned she patrolled mostly alone
It was war just as in any war it is easy to underestimate the opposition ,Buffy had no Idea about Celeb , no its blame Buffy time because she always carries them always saves them' this time she didn't and if your own flesh and Blood will not back you, understand where you are coming from , say a good word for you at an important meeting then Who ? ,
Dawn is written better in S7 but then she could hardly be written worse than she was in the previous 2 but her attitude to Buffy at that meeting shows a underline bitchiness to her sister
 
Last edited:

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
9,005
Age
30
Buffy knew Dawn was not her real sister and the monks had use her ...was Buffy love for Dawn natural in S6 or was it still part of the Spell left over from S5, when Buffy acted unreasonable and would have let the world end than have her non sister killed...by S7 Buffy has a conversation with Giles she would have let Dawn die because of what she had been through , as for Dawn no sympathy from me throwing Buffy out of her own house
It's possible that Buffy was incapable of sacrificing Dawn in Season 5 because the spell made her incapable of doing so hence why she would let the world end rather than have Dawn die. Buffy sacrificed Angel the love of her life in Season 2, even though it was a terrible moment for her, because she had to in order to save the world. The same logic should've applied to Dawn.


I'm also one of those who thinks it should've ended with season 5.
Season 5 would've been a terrible way to end the series, not because of Buffy's sacrifice, but because she does it for a character that was only brought into existence for that very season yet is sooooooo important to Buffy.

Which is funny because I have a lot of sympathy with Dawn over that and you can tell she hates doing it. In a sense she's right you can't do something as a united unit if someone is constantly acting against it. Rona's a bitch and Dawn calls her out on it, Anya's a bitch, Kennedy's a bitch after power and Wood is a bitch looking for petty vengeance since he didn't get his pound of flesh. Dawn isn't she's trying to do the right thing.
I do think the scoobies should've stuck up for Buffy rather than jumping on Kennedy's band wagon. The problem with the mutiny is that it's not Scooby led, which could've been a heart breaking moment, it's Kennedy led (and she even jumps down Willow before Willow says anything just because Willow looks like she's going to defend Buffy) and the scoobies just fall into line behind her. Kenendy is the worst person to have leading the mutiny in terms of garnering audience sympathy and it makes the scoobies look bad.

Another problem is that Buffy was clearly right and everyone else wrong. If they'd given both sides some justification then it wouldn't be so bad eg have Buffy's team trying to dig up the scythe when they get attacked. Buffy is right that they have to go back because it is the key to defeating the first whilst everyone else is reluctant because it would make them sitting ducks. It stops the bad guys looking stupid, and it means the mutiny isn't just Kennedy being a bitch and performing a powerplay.
 

Dora

Scooby
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Messages
1,103
Age
54
It's possible that Buffy was incapable of sacrificing Dawn in Season 5 because the spell made her incapable of doing so hence why she would let the world end rather than have Dawn die. Buffy sacrificed Angel the love of her life in Season 2, even though it was a terrible moment for her, because she had to in order to save the world. The same logic should've applied to Dawn.




Season 5 would've been a terrible way to end the series, not because of Buffy's sacrifice, but because she does it for a character that was only brought into existence for that very season yet is sooooooo important to Buffy.



I do think the scoobies should've stuck up for Buffy rather than jumping on Kennedy's band wagon. The problem with the mutiny is that it's not Scooby led, which could've been a heart breaking moment, it's Kennedy led (and she even jumps down Willow before Willow says anything just because Willow looks like she's going to defend Buffy) and the scoobies just fall into line behind her. Kenendy is the worst person to have leading the mutiny in terms of garnering audience sympathy and it makes the scoobies look bad.

Another problem is that Buffy was clearly right and everyone else wrong. If they'd given both sides some justification then it wouldn't be so bad eg have Buffy's team trying to dig up the scythe when they get attacked. Buffy is right that they have to go back because it is the key to defeating the first whilst everyone else is reluctant because it would make them sitting ducks. It stops the bad guys looking stupid, and it means the mutiny isn't just Kennedy being a bitch and performing a powerplay.

Kennedy may have started the revolt , but Giles and Faith certainly had a major role in what happened , Giles was a complete dick in S6 but he must of had a brain transplant for S7 , although I believe Buffy had not forgiven him for S6 leaving as he did in the circumstances can never fully be forgiven , Buffy had used the logic she had used for the past 6 years , but suddenly the scoobies did not want to hear , what made Buffy leave was Dawn and her " can't stay " what more did they want from her
Season 5 and death was her gift , maybe it was the best to end it then as the story was about BTVS and death is the end , S6 was horrid , and S7 after CWDP was very poor .I always thought it was sad that it finished when it did as there was a vast opportunity with all the potentials , one of the reasons I always thought Buffy should have got a film, but then it appears that Sarah did not finish on the best of terms with Whedon and Noxon
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Messages
754
Black Thorn
Buffy knew Dawn was not her real sister and the monks had use her ...was Buffy love for Dawn natural in S6 or was it still part of the Spell left over from S5,
She still has the memories of growing up with Dawn so to Buffy she is very much her sister.
when Buffy acted unreasonable and would have let the world end than have her non sister killed
I think anyone would, she loved Dawn more like a daughter, it's very natural for Buffy to feel like that.
by S7 Buffy has a conversation with Giles she would have let Dawn die because of what she had been through
But we aren't talking about if Buffy had the foreknowledge of what heaven was like. After, Buffy knew where Dawn would have gone, and she wouldn't have to deal with the pain of coming back. Let's not forget Buffy would have thought Dawn was in a hell dimension and that would be the last of her family gone (her dad doesn't really count).
as for Dawn no sympathy from me throwing Buffy out of her own house....Dawn is still a bitch
Although it was not a shining moment for Dawn, she was the only one who had a right to do that, I don't sympathise with Dawn for that, the same way I don't sympathise with Willow getting drugged up off magic and Anya turning back into a demon, if was calling every character that did a few bad things a bitch, we'd be here all day. I don't think Dawn is a bitch, I believe she was still finding her footing after you know, being created to fit into a world where everyone was being hurt because of her and losing her family within a year of being alive.
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
3,415
Age
38
Season 5 was one of my favorites, neck to neck with s3 for me, but this board pointed out so many plot holes and problems that it no longer is. I wish I could remember one fan's "rewrite" of season 5 as it would've been a lot better.

I still like it, though.

As for those who think it sucks that Buffy died (NOT including those who see it as escape by suicide rather than heroic self-sacrifice, nor as DeadlyDuo point out that her choice was irrelevant because her mind was hijacked by a spell) I wonder, what do you think of the s2 episode Lie to Me? Not so much Ford's ignoble attempt to escape his fate, one as deadly as Buffy's in its own way, but the very last exchange between Giles and Buffy in the end. (Just curious. There is no "right or wrong" answer here. Some watch Buffy to escape, so hell yeah, lie to them, while others can find inspiration in understanding the grim situation but still able to stand up to it anyway even if it's bound to end in death, plus not outliving a series' shelf life.)


As for me, and speaking before BB pointed out so many problems with season 5, I envied Buffy's death. Her death was more meaningful and saved more lives than mine will, and she also knew she was under a death sentence for being a Slayer (and had one hell of a run as one), but rose to meet it bravely for those she loved, and for the world (even if many in the world didn't deserve it). I know my own death won't be anywhere as pleasant or comforting. To me, her story was complete (and nice that Buffy herself throws that in during season 6.)
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
9,005
Age
30
I wonder, what do you think of the s2 episode Lie to Me? Not so much Ford's ignoble attempt to escape his fate, one as deadly as Buffy's in its own way, but the very last exchange between Giles and Buffy in the end.
Given that Ford was supposedly Buffy's friend from her old school, I think she was quite hurt by his betrayal and just wanted to hear words of comfort that the world wasn't such a dark place, even if it wasn't true. She was lucky Drusilla tagged along to the group massacre and then stood around doing nothing otherwise Buffy probably wouldn't have escaped that basement alive because she wouldn't have leverage to use against Spike, plus there would be a load of dead people.
 

Taake

That's right, I'm watching you...
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
17,350
Age
35
Location
Stockholm, Swe
Black Thorn
Just a friendly reminder that this thread is about season 5.

It's not my favorite, but I'll forever maintain that it is the real "reality sucks" season (sometimes said of season 6) because it is the first season when Buffy is really forced into a grueling adulthood - her mom's illness and death, taking care of Dawn, finding out about Dawn not being real, becoming sole parent of Dawn, having to drop out of college, become sole provider of a household, the break up with Riley... It's a very dramatic season for Buffy as a character, even factoring out her self-sacrifice at the end!

I am one of those that think the show should've ended there, kind of, because I think it's a perfect circle but I'm not staying up crying about the existence of season 6-7 or anything ;)
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,475
Age
49
It's possible that Buffy was incapable of sacrificing Dawn in Season 5 because the spell made her incapable of doing so hence why she would let the world end rather than have Dawn die. Buffy sacrificed Angel the love of her life in Season 2, even though it was a terrible moment for her, because she had to in order to save the world. The same logic should've applied to Dawn.




Season 5 would've been a terrible way to end the series, not because of Buffy's sacrifice, but because she does it for a character that was only brought into existence for that very season yet is sooooooo important to Buffy.



I do think the scoobies should've stuck up for Buffy rather than jumping on Kennedy's band wagon. The problem with the mutiny is that it's not Scooby led, which could've been a heart breaking moment, it's Kennedy led (and she even jumps down Willow before Willow says anything just because Willow looks like she's going to defend Buffy) and the scoobies just fall into line behind her. Kenendy is the worst person to have leading the mutiny in terms of garnering audience sympathy and it makes the scoobies look bad.

Another problem is that Buffy was clearly right and everyone else wrong. If they'd given both sides some justification then it wouldn't be so bad eg have Buffy's team trying to dig up the scythe when they get attacked. Buffy is right that they have to go back because it is the key to defeating the first whilst everyone else is reluctant because it would make them sitting ducks. It stops the bad guys looking stupid, and it means the mutiny isn't just Kennedy being a bitch and performing a powerplay.
You say Buffy was clearly right but although her logic of the bad guys being where the power is makes sense I can completely understand why everyone one else having witnessed death and injury was unwilling to go back in there. It funny Lani at still Pretty says nothing is different and Giles got injured in Spiral but then goes on to talk about how shocking Xander's injury is. People haven't died in front of Buffy before in a failed mission. Xander is also maimed for life and nothing like that happened before. When people got injured before no matter how badly they always recoverd although the amount of times Giles has been hit on the head it's a wonder he doesn't have permanent brain damage.

Season 5 was one of my favorites, neck to neck with s3 for me, but this board pointed out so many plot holes and problems that it no longer is. I wish I could remember one fan's "rewrite" of season 5 as it would've been a lot better.

I still like it, though.

As for those who think it sucks that Buffy died (NOT including those who see it as escape by suicide rather than heroic self-sacrifice, nor as DeadlyDuo point out that her choice was irrelevant because her mind was hijacked by a spell) I wonder, what do you think of the s2 episode Lie to Me? Not so much Ford's ignoble attempt to escape his fate, one as deadly as Buffy's in its own way, but the very last exchange between Giles and Buffy in the end. (Just curious. There is no "right or wrong" answer here. Some watch Buffy to escape, so hell yeah, lie to them, while others can find inspiration in understanding the grim situation but still able to stand up to it anyway even if it's bound to end in death, plus not outliving a series' shelf life.)


As for me, and speaking before BB pointed out so many problems with season 5, I envied Buffy's death. Her death was more meaningful and saved more lives than mine will, and she also knew she was under a death sentence for being a Slayer (and had one hell of a run as one), but rose to meet it bravely for those she loved, and for the world (even if many in the world didn't deserve it). I know my own death won't be anywhere as pleasant or comforting. To me, her story was complete (and nice that Buffy herself throws that in during season 6.)
I don't think you should let the board destroy your love for something. The guys on here don't know everything. There's a video from one of the better critics on You Tube saying that plot holes nitpicking is over rated and even a film as acclaimed as The Dark Knight has them. As Lani of Chipperish says love what you love baby.
Also I've yet to see a single let's fix X season premise that has worked for me most of reaffirm why you shouldn't let fans write shows - well except Passion of the Nerd's idea of having Xander in the Initiative after joining the army in season four.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
9,005
Age
30
You say Buffy was clearly right but although her logic of the bad guys being where the power is makes sense I can completely understand why everyone one else having witnessed death and injury was unwilling to go back in there.
The problem is the writers had the wrong person leading the mutiny (Kennedy) and her actions afterwards present it as basically a powerplay. In the immediate aftermath where everyone is talking at once, you hear Kennedy say "Maybe those who have been here longest should get a bigger say" and then she openly admits to Faith that she though she'd get a bigger say with Faith in charge (which certainly explains the brown nosing prior). Kennedy doesn't care about the group, she only cares about herself. Even the relationship with Willow is a powerplay, notice how the moment the two are "officially" dating, Kennedy is inserting herself into Scooby meetings. Tara never did that.

Season 5 is one of those seasons where it can have great moments and episodes, but the overarching story is weak and there are a few major unanswered questions.
 

Mylie

Scooby
Joined
Dec 1, 2016
Messages
2,098
Age
33
It's one of my favorite seasons. It feels both very personal and epic to me. Personal in nature because it's about protecting the key/someone whom Buffy loves and epic because they are affronting a goddess who could end the world as they know. It's not a perfect season, but I think it works emotionally so I forgive a lot of its plot holes because of it.

While s3 is my overall favorite season, s2 and s5 are tied as 2nd for me, and very close behind. Their arcs are a bit similar so I don't think it's a coincidence.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,475
Age
49
The problem is the writers had the wrong person leading the mutiny (Kennedy) and her actions afterwards present it as basically a powerplay. In the immediate aftermath where everyone is talking at once, you hear Kennedy say "Maybe those who have been here longest should get a bigger say" and then she openly admits to Faith that she though she'd get a bigger say with Faith in charge (which certainly explains the brown nosing prior). Kennedy doesn't care about the group, she only cares about herself. Even the relationship with Willow is a powerplay, notice how the moment the two are "officially" dating, Kennedy is inserting herself into Scooby meetings. Tara never did that.

Season 5 is one of those seasons where it can have great moments and episodes, but the overarching story is weak and there are a few major unanswered questions.
Whilst I agree that Kennedy is doing a power play part of it is she's convinced she's right about the seal and it wouldn't worked had other people not had concerns (Willow, Xander, Faith, Giles, most of the potentials) or vendettas and grudges against Buffy (Anya, Wood, Rona to some extent).
 

Taake

That's right, I'm watching you...
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
17,350
Age
35
Location
Stockholm, Swe
Black Thorn
The problem is the writers had the wrong person leading the mutiny (Kennedy) and her actions afterwards present it as basically a powerplay. In the immediate aftermath where everyone is talking at once, you hear Kennedy say "Maybe those who have been here longest should get a bigger say" and then she openly admits to Faith that she though she'd get a bigger say with Faith in charge (which certainly explains the brown nosing prior). Kennedy doesn't care about the group, she only cares about herself. Even the relationship with Willow is a powerplay, notice how the moment the two are "officially" dating, Kennedy is inserting herself into Scooby meetings. Tara never did that.
Whilst I agree that Kennedy is doing a power play part of it is she's convinced she's right about the seal and it wouldn't worked had other people not had concerns (Willow, Xander, Faith, Giles, most of the potentials) or vendettas and grudges against Buffy (Anya, Wood, Rona to some extent).
Again, let's keep this on season 5! You guys can create a separate thread for this discussion.


Season 5 is one of those seasons where it can have great moments and episodes, but the overarching story is weak and there are a few major unanswered questions.
Great topic for this thread, what questions do you feel it left open?
 

Oromous

Socially Awkward
Joined
Aug 16, 2020
Messages
647
Age
30
Location
Singapore
Sineya
Per @thrasherpix's recommendation, I'm reposting a post I mistakenly posted in the Angel season 5 section:

Reasons why I like season 5:
  • Strong storytelling that are only second to season 2
  • Consistent quality similar to season 3
  • Buffy finally exploring the ambiguity of the Slayer/Killer relationship that should've been in season 4
  • More mature storylines that are starting to get away from teen drama
  • The Body
  • The Gift
  • Beautiful season finale that resonates with the series theme about choice and responsibility
I wrote in more details why I like this season in my review:

I wouldn't really say it's my favorite season, though; that place is still reserved for season 2... I think. It's been a long time.
 

Joan the Vampire Slayer

Carpe Spuffy!
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
5,664
Age
35
Location
WA State
So you may know this already but the show was planned to end with this season which is why she dies in the finale. They didn't know if they'd get picked up for another season so they wanted to end it in the best way they could.

A part of me wishes the series had ended here. But of course more Buffy is always better than less Buffy so I don't really think that. And S6 is MY favorite season.

my rankings would go like this:

S6, S2, S3, S1, S4, S5, S7
 

Spanky

Scooby
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
22,945
Black Thorn
If it ended at 5 you would have never gotten to see Spike being the lead and the focus of the show and his path to redemption. Even in 5 he seemed largely comic relief, it was nice to see him grow beyond that as a character.
 

Priceless

Scooby
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
8,042
Location
UK
So glad it didn't end at 5. Buffy would have been just another dead slayer and we've had millennia of them. Nice to see her sharing the power. Plus, Spuffy.
 
Top Bottom