Joyce the parent

Reading about some people's reactions to telling Buffy to not come home in end Season 2 kind of has me shaking my head and smirking slightly.

Didn't Buffy pushed Joyce hard (and by hard I mean hard) into the island in the kitchen before Joyce told her not to come back? So hard that Joyce's head kind of snapped back? Guurrrl (and booy) if I had done that to MY mom, being told "Do not come back" would be a light handed punishment. My mother would've snatched me bald.

So it just makes me giggle that we're judging her for telling Buffy something in a moment of anger (and most likely serious pain) after her daughter assaulted her, but we expected her to say what? "Oh it's cool honey, I can grow another spine"?

Joyce had some weird moments as a mom. That scene? Not one of them.

I just read back the script for this scene, this isn't exactly what happens. Buffy and Joyce are fighting about Buffy being the slayer, Joyce gets angry and throws a glass at the wall. She tells Buffy that "it stops right now" and Buffy goes into her "God even studying!" speech. Buffy tells her that she has to go save the world. Again.Joyce grabs Buffy's shoulders to stop her going, Buffy shrugs them off and makes a move to go but Joyce grabs her and Buffy pushes her mother back against the island and tells her she has to go. Then Joyce tells her not to come back.

What I found interesting though was this:

Buffy just gives her a long stare and leaves. Joyce sighs, having failed
once again at communicating with her daughter
. She turns around and
leans on the island with her head in her hands.


Source: http://www.buffyworld.com/
 
I think she was alright,

Did Joyce do laundry by hand?

Do people really look at individual pieces when you're chucking them into the machine?

Speaking as a man, who was once a teenager, I hope people don't look at individual pieces of clothing before they go in there!
Also speaking from experience if you're aware of stained cloths you handle them yourself; one could only imagine Buffy would have handled anything particularly noticeable by herself!
 
K
KellGreen
Yes..as a mother I inspect everything 'cause if i don't get the stain out i have to pay for the replacement...
Z
Zeppo
Sooo many lulz at this post, BEG! You a'ight, kid.
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
No...as a mother I'm often too busy to inspect every piece. ;)@KellGreen. Also I'm a mom of 3 boys- um, ok maybe I should definitely NOT inspect each piece!!
What I found interesting though was this:

Buffy just gives her a long stare and leaves. Joyce sighs, having failed
once again at communicating with her daughter
. She turns around and
leans on the island with her head in her hands.


Source: http://www.buffyworld.com/

I think that's a transcript written by a viewer. The original shooting script doesn't have that part.

I think they both made mistakes in that scene. I was really mad at Joyce when I first watched that episode, but I can understand why she would say something like that in the heat of the moment. Buffy had just been accused of murdering Kendra, Spike's being Spike, and now Buffy's going to face god knows what. Joyce grabs Buffy to stop her from going, Buffy shoves Joyce away. I don't know where the fault lies. It'd be unforgivable, to me, if Joyce actually threw Buffy out of the house and didn't let her come back, but I really think she just said that in the heat of the moment. The next morning, she goes to check Buffy's room and she clearly seems to regret it. She messed up and said something hurtful. Not a great Joyce moment at all. But to me, given the situation, I can understand why she'd do that.
 
Personally I agree with what most people said in here. Yes Joyce wasn't perfect. But nobody is. I love Buffy, Cordy, Giles and so on part because they're flawed and they do mistakes or act like idiots sometimes. But with that clear, I still wasn't a big fan of Joyce. Like Mumrik, I really hated it when she threatened Buffy that if she left the house she could never come back. That's waaay past the line. It's her freaking mom, for Christ's sake. I understand she wanted to stop her from leaving, but you can't use something like that. I thought that was below the belt. Obviously she didn't know what Buffy was going through already, but still it doesn't excuse resorting to that kind of threat. I'll never respect that kind of thing.

And then you have her calling Giles out in 'Anne' about taking her daughter away from her and so on... Wtf? She rarely made any real efforts to bond with Buffy. Sure Buffy wasn't big into sharing(as we often see later on with guys and gals alike), but I still felt she could have tried harder than that.

Dead Man's Party argument, hmm... She's not completely wrong there, but still she again show how bad she is at connecting with Buffy. She pretty much go crazy when she see her packing stuffs and push her to the brink instead of trying to find out what's going on with Buff for her to want to leave. She's not alone, mind you(Xander comes to mind)... But still, she acted as if all the blame was on Buffy. It's just when Buff pointed out about the 'never coming back' that she owned up to what she had said(barely).

Anyway, these three examples are part of why Joyce wasn't very big in my heart.

I got to say though... I did like the daughters/mother relationship they had in season five. It was pretty touching and the scene where Joyce ask Buffy to take care of Dawn if she doesn't survive the operation, that always get me. Good stuff right there. Almost make me wanna change my mind despite all I said up there. 😉
 
Like Mumrik, I really hated it when she threatened Buffy that if she left the house she could never come back. That's waaay past the line. It's her freaking mom, for Christ's sake. I understand she wanted to stop her from leaving, but you can't use something like that. I thought that was below the belt. Obviously she didn't know what Buffy was going through already, but still it doesn't excuse resorting to that kind of threat. I'll never respect that kind of thing.

I just watched the episode. You guys are hardcore!!!!

Right before the "fight," Spike is happily talking about Dru killing Kendra, Buffy just told mom she's a slayer, the cops are after Buffy for murder, Joyce was drinking, Joyce found out that vampires are real, and Joyce found out that Buffy was going to murder her boyfriend.

Give Joyce a break!!
 
R
randiann
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VisionGirl
VisionGirl
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S
sosa lola
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For me, two major things always get in the way of judging Joyce, every time I want to.

The first is the gigantic pile of extraordinary circumstances she's faced with, having a daughter as a slayer. I mean, I understand the metaphor here and of course parenting is always unbelievably difficult. But take the events of Becoming Pt 2 (as others have pointed out) alone during which she finds out Buffy's a slayer in cahoots with a vampire and is about to kill her ex who is also a vampire in the span of like an hour--and the whole thing seems almost silly to me. I mean I kind of chuckle to myself when I imagine how any parent is "supposed" to react to that information. Whether or not it's merely a hyperbolic telling of what having a teenager is really like, the cold hard fact for me is that the circumstances are too extreme for me to know how to react.

The biggest however is that I think Joyce is purposefully kept "quiet" or "on standby" by the writers for the purpose of moving along the plot. In essence, I see a lot of her reactions-- which I'd be quick to judge as negligent in other circumstances-- as plot devices, really. I hate talking like this about the show; throwing it so harshly into reality by talking about the writing techniques used, but honestly, I really can't look at Joyce without thinking about them. I mean, considering the woman wasn't passed out all the time--that she wasn't an alcoholic, a drug addict, or just plain negligent to the extent that child services should be called, she really would have noticed the blood and/or the grass stains at some point. She really would have noticed that her daughter went out at night, eventually. I mean, it was just the two of them living in the house and assuming Joyce ever called out to Buffy past 8 pm and never received an answer, she would have walked into her room and noticed she was gone. Parents who are remotely involved in their child's lives are at least capable of noticing such glaringly obvious things. Even if she was a not so fantastic parent, this would be the case.
When Dawn cut her arms open with a knife, did Joyce insist that they go to the hospital to confirm that the wounds weren't deep enough to need stitches? Either she isn't too concerned with the well-being of Dawn which is not consistent with what we know about Joyce, or it has to do with the inconvenience of writing that into the script.

--If Joyce acts too often as a figure who says "no" or is suspicious of the gang's operations, the plot doesn't move forward. They are all doing terribly risky things every minute of every day so conveniently, the authority figure needs to be someone who encourages them to do so with a guiding hand, (Giles). If Joyce starts acting overly concerned or encouraging the gang to be safe, we won't have our show.
So anyway, I can't really judge.
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
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PassionBecoming
PassionBecoming
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But remember the entire town was like that. I don't know that they ever really acknowledged living on a Hellmouth until Buffy received her umbrella award (Off topic---what a great moment that was!)
I can understand that but to be like that with your child baffles me. I mean it would be different if it was something small but come on blood in her clothes? She could be getting beat up or something and you just wash it away and don't ask question?

Well with ted tho, everyone was under the drugs he put in the food... I mean her friends were for ted and against her to.... I'm not sure you can judge her as a parent for that. As for clothing, I think she probably just blocked it out, because it was to hard to discuss, and for that I think maybe it was a mistake, but I also thing that made it more realistic.... parents make mistakes all the time, no one is perfect... But, had she confronted buffy about it before, would it have helped? Maybe it would have made the end of season 2 less dramatic, but she might have reacted the same way no matter when buffy talked to her about it.... I thik Joyce said it best "great parenting form.... little shaky on the dismount".
I don't know if it would have helped but it is still very odd that she didn't say anything.
I also understand it was mystical but I wouldn't put it all on that.

My mom did (does) that with her husband and her children. I can barely watch Ted because it makes me so angry. When someone decides to have a parent, they agree to put their child first. My mother acts like we don't have voices, opinions, points of view, the right to respect, etc from her husband. Joyce did that with Buffy and Ted and it makes me more angry than I can ever describe. I don't care if it was mystical or whatever, it's a subject that hurts me.
That is it exactly! It ticks me off and makes me angry like you because I had a best friend that had the exact same problem. She moved and left her daughter to be with the boyfriend and a heck of a lot of other stuff. So when I see that mystical or not it makes me disgusted because I have seen it first hand and have had to deal with it because of this friends mom. I like John Ritter so to see him was cool but Joyce in that episode irritates me beyond belief.
 
Didn't Buffy pushed Joyce hard (and by hard I mean hard) into the island in the kitchen before Joyce told her not to come back? So hard that Joyce's head kind of snapped back? Guurrrl (and booy) if I had done that to MY mom, being told "Do not come back" would be a light handed punishment. My mother would've snatched me bald.

So it just makes me giggle that we're judging her for telling Buffy something in a moment of anger (and most likely serious pain) after her daughter assaulted her, but we expected her to say what? "Oh it's cool honey, I can grow another spine"?

Joyce had some weird moments as a mom. That scene? Not one of them.

Yes, exactly. That's exactly what I was saying. In a perfect world (which non of us live in, not even buffy) Joyce would have said oh ok, your a slayer, cool, go slay... but, hello?! Mother!! Shes worried about her kid, she doesn't want her to be someone fighting, and in danger all the time. She also doesn't understand the severity of buffy situation that night, so... she told her not to leave, when buffy said no a pushed, she snapped. My mother would have killed me, so I thin buffy got off pretty light! You could tell the SECOND she said it, and buffy walked away, she regretted it, and obviously wanted her to come back.

If you want to talk about WEIRD parenting moments.... How about, becoming 16 again, being possessed by an egg...... or the crazy that dead raising mask thing.... Not to mention all the times a vampire grabbed her... Point is.... Joyce had a bit of a weird time with Buffy, and some unusual things to face... maybe she didnt always make the perfect choice... but, I'm not sure I would have done better... I think the moral is, Joyce was a good mother, who loved her daughter and had her best intentions in mind.
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
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Speaking as a man, who was once a teenager, I hope people don't look at individual pieces of clothing before they go in there!

Dude, that was soooo the bane of my childhood.. white shows one stain whereas black another. You so hit the nail on the head there broham.
 
PassionBecoming
PassionBecoming
Well, you have to look to see if they have stains that need treatment!
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