Meta - Spike and Angel(us): I don’t judge them by different standards

[thetopher]

He tried to continue their relationship. How many times had Buffy thrown him down and had her way with him? How many times did he do that ti her? How many times had she said it was over only to cave in before the end of the episode?

That was when they were in a relationship- but they had at this point been broken up for quite a while. Buffy had said countless times since 'As You Were'- 'I don't love you', 'it's over', 'we're not sleeping together', 'its real for you but not for me' ad nauseum with varying degrees of force.
The signs could not have been clearer from her point of view and as @RomanticSoul pointed out nothing in that 'AR' scene (Buffy screaming and begging for Spike to stop) remotely resembled what had been shown before for a good reason.

Spike was a monster. He always was a monster. It should come as no surprise he acts in a monstrous fashion. It's the farmer and the viper.

I get that and understand Spike's motivation- he's a demon- but yet you still find people making excuses for him- even to this day you have 'oh, she could've fought him off if she'd wanted to', (seriously this sickens me) 'it's not attempted rape because he failed', 'it wasn't even rape because she was stronger than him', 'she was really just disappointed in him', etc.

Just...spectacularly inappropriate excuses for Spike's behaviour because they happen to like his character.
They dispute WHAT HAPPENED not why it happened. Why it happened is open to a fair ammount of interpretation- nothing wrong with that.

No it was a vampire shown time and time again not to be as strong as her. And I'm afraid I've always felt the writers attempt at weakening her (I mean for gods sake an average vampire can do such damage, where other big bads have failed?) just didn't convince imo.

Prime example above: Spike, the guy who had almost killed Buffy on a couple of occassions, 'couldn't have raped her because she wasn't injured enough.'

Ugh. 

Writers sacrificing their storytelling integrity just because some fans tend to get very loud. The comics writers have stated before they can't even mention the AR without a shitstorm errupting. Such an embarrasing state of affairs when writers are too afraid of the fans. What happened to 'giving us what we need, not what we want'? All I see is people cowering beneath a section of fans. So no one is actually telling an honest story. It's just fanservice.

There's also a hell of a lot of truth in this but I would say that fanservice in the comics at the price of story telling has been going on for a while now, and it doesn't just pertain to Buffy and Spike's relationship. Although that's getting so bad now that even a lot of the Spuffy's on the other boards are beginning to notice.

 

[gite63]

Buffy overcoming her trauma like many rape survivors

Buffy wasn't raped. She isn't a "rape survivor". There was no trauma whatsoever to be dealt over, and that was very cleary showed on the show. Some people want so bad that Buffy, the heroine of the show, had been damaged, but she wasn't.

'it wasn't even rape because she was stronger than him', 'she was really just disappointed in him', etc.

I said that, and I say it again. She felt betrayed by Spike. The Slayer crying "please Spike, stop, please". Please???? The only other time I remember she was so helpless, crying "help, help" was at the time of her Cruciamentum. At that night, wasn't the case. She wasn't weakened ("she hit her back" is really stupid), she kicked him when she wanted to - not before asking him to stop, because she wanted him to stop.

Soon afterwards, she was fighting the Trio and looking for Spike. No rape trauma whatsover, neither in Season 6, nor in Season 7, even less in Seasons 8, 9 and 10. That's what we saw on screen and what we are seeing on the comics.

Now, people are saying she had sex with a woman because she was traumatized... what a theory!

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Just...spectacularly inappropriate excuses for Spike's behaviour because they happen to like his character.

But you can make spectacularly inappropriate excuses for liking any character. I am usually on the otherside of the fence, I generally do not like any of the characters and make spectacularly inappropriate excuses for not liking them.

I think the issue you have is that the writers wrote this scene as a means to propel Spike. Buffy was treated as a secondary character. And like most of the secondary characters on the show, their involvement in that particular beat was simply glanced over.

According to what was shown, I can see where people could "make excuses for him" but according to what was NOT shown I can see where you can vilify him. Your issue is that as Buffy is the main character the actions and reactions should have been focused on her and not Spike, but that was not the point of that scene, and not the point of the following season. And I think that is where the problem comes from.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I said that, and I say it again. She felt betrayed by Spike. The Slayer crying "please Spike, stop, please". Please???? The only other time I remember she was so helpless, crying "help, help" was at the time of her Cruciamentum. At that night, wasn't the case. She wasn't weakened ("she hit her back" is really stupid), she kicked him when she wanted to - not before asking him to stop, because she wanted him to stop.

Gimme a break. Honest question. Have you ever been in this situation yourself? I'm not being flippant. Because unless you and everyone else saying 'well she was stronger than him so no problem' or whatever else you use as excuses really needs to stop. Because clearly you lack the experience to actually know what you are talking about. It has absolutely nothing to with strenght.

Soon afterwards, she was fighting the Trio and looking for Spike. No rape trauma whatsover, neither in Season 6, nor in Season 7, even less in Seasons 8, 9 and 10. That's what we saw on screen and what we are seeing on the comics.

Ignoring what happened in the service of Spike's story is not the same as 'no trauma'. Because that is basically what happened. This storyline was never even about Buffy so no one bothered to realistically deal with what.

 

[Silverspike]

"Prime example above: Spike, the guy who had almost killed Buffy on a couple of occassions, 'couldn't have raped her because she wasn't injured enough.'

Ugh."

Oh for christ sake I was talking about how the writers approached this whole idea. To me it did come across as a weak cop out, sorry but it did.

I'm not disputing what Spike attempted to do, (he's a souless vampire who'd been having rough sex with a Slayer for weeks for god sake) but which excuse they chose for Spike NOT to succeed. I thinks something more convincing then being kicked by your average vamp would have help sell it to me better.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Ignoring what happened in the service of Spike's story is not the same as 'no trauma'. Because that is basically what happened.

It's not basically what happened. It IS what happened. They did not WANT trauma so there was no trauma. Simple as that. The trauma that Buffy had, if any, was not deemed important enough to be shown on screen. That is a secondary character.

 

[gite63]

Have you ever been in this situation yourself?

So, now are we getting personnal? No, I haven't. Have you (AR)? If yes, I'm really sorry for you. But maybe I've been through worse things, and saw worse things.

Because unless you and everyone else saying 'well she was stronger than him so no problem' or whatever else you use as excuses really needs to stop.

Well, no, I won't stop in this particular case, a scene on a fictional show, where we know all the story between this two characters, so we have to consider the context of all that.

 

[RomanticSoul]

It's not basically what happened. It IS what happened. They did not WANT trauma so there was no trauma. Simple as that.

They wanted to have the 'will they, won't they' S7 crap and that couldn't happen if they honestly dealt with the repercussions of SR. Just like the soul/chip retcon between Seasons. And again the whole story was never even about Buffy so no one bothered to deal with what this meant for her and her journey. No trauma because no one was interested in Buffy's side. Just the simple fact that they allowed Spike to blame all of S6 on Buffy and she just takes it makes that perfectly clear.

The trauma that Buffy had, if any, was not deemed important enough to be shown on screen. That is a secondary character.

But Buffy is not a freaking secondary character. She is the MAIN character of the franchise. Spike is the secondary character. The focus should have been on Buffy in this whole story, it's her damn show.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

But Buffy is not a freaking secondary character. She is the MAIN character of the franchise. Spike is the secondary character. The focus should have been on Buffy in this whole story, it's her damn show.

THIS. It is annoying enough when this happens to secondary female characters in other narratives, like in practically every mainstream superhero comic ever at one point or another. But a show with a female main character that prides itself on its feminist reputation and subverting cliched patriarchal tropes? This is abysmal.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But Buffy is not a freaking secondary character.

Buffy was, in that scene (episode?) and much of the next season. They had to promote Spike to leading man. The writers have mentioned it. That was their intent. 

But a show with a female main character that prides itself on its feminist reputation and subverting cliched patriarchal tropes? This is abysmal.

You ever think that's why SMG so abruptly quit the show?

 

[SiegePerilous02]

Buffy was, in that scene (episode?) and much of the next season. They had to promote Spike to leading man. The writers have mentioned it. That was their intent. 

You ever think that's why SMG so abruptly quit the show?

I've always suspected it was one of the major reasons SMG was done with the show, yeah.

 

[bespangeled]

I've actually been thinking about this. I tcan't be a coincidence that after the attempted rape Buffy wasn't in another sexual relationship for almost three friggin' years- and even then it was a female subordinate who she knew was in love with her (because of the 'true love' spell)?

I think Buffy was way more screwed up by what Spike did/tried to do than she knew at the time.



I don't get this 'distinction' or whatever. Buffy was the slayer, true, which would matter if it was just a normal guy, but it wasn't- it was a vampire who's certainly comparable in strength, especially to an injured Buffy.

And to say it isn't attempted rape because the woman fought the man off is just...I know one female friend of mine who would strongly disagree with that sentiment.
I wish some people would stop trying to downgrade the enomity of Spike's betrayal of Buffy's trust. He tried, he failed, but he still tried.

There is a difference between attempted and almost. Yes , he attempted to rape her. No he didn't almost rape her. And I have written plenty here on the betrayal of trust which I see as more of an issue. 

Have to agree with that. But the fact remains Buffy and Spike have never dealt with what happened. Writers sacrificing their storytelling integrity just because some fans tend to get very loud. The comics writers have stated before they can't even mention the AR without a shitstorm errupting. Such an embarrasing state of affairs when writers are too afraid of the fans. What happened to 'giving us what we need, not what we want'? All I see is people cowering beneath a section of fans. So no one is actually telling an honest story. It's just fanservice.


You know I'm not going to say that some people have to experience something like this in order to finally get it through their thick skulls. But I find it just as insulting when people brush it off just because Buffy had the strenght to fight him off. Strenght is not really an advantage in a situation like that. Because what you go through psychologically dictates what happens. Buffy could have just as easily ended up frozen in shock and not come out of that. Because you don't exactly remember your strenght when you are petrified.

How can it not be an attempt? Why on earth are there still people arguing that fact? He tried to force intercourse on her after she said no. Hell she was crying and begging (which was nothing like their previous relationship). That is the very definition of attempted rape for God's sake. Attempt is attempt. No if's no but's.

I don't think anyone has argued that Spike did not attempt to rape Buffy. I just believe that he did not get close to succeeding so it wasn't an almost rape. Yes, physically she was able to fight him off but psychologically she was assaulted by the fact that he used her trust to get that close and attack her. 

If I gonna watch some characteron a tv show, I'd like some outward signs of humanity please.

Actually interesting since the main characters aren't human. I'm not sure what signs you are looking for.

Tough because at the very least it points to a fundemental character flaw with the guy, so its gonna get brought up. No character had the decency to on the show so it's gonna crop up here. If some other character did this then they'd be called out on it as well.

And its nice that you put 'stalking and killing a champion of good' in its most bloodless context possible. Nikki Wood seemed like a good, decent person, a slayer and a mother. She didn't deserve to die.
Also soulless Spike has a problem/fixation with strong women so he stalks and kills them when the opportunity presents itself.
He's a serial killer and he has a 'type'- that's a more accurate way of putting it.

You see it as a fundamental flaw - it could be. Nikki didn't deserve to die, but she had a calling that tended toward an early death. Her calling was to kill as many demons like Spike as she could. Spike does look for the best possible fight, and the two slayers he killed were the best fights he could find. As for the rest - he was a demon. Demons are evil and they do bad things. I figure we have covered that extensively.

So because Wood was going to kill him that justifies Spike putting on the coat retroactivly? I'm just trying to see your reasoning here...

By retroactively you mean after the unsuccessful murder attempt? If so, then yes.

He conspired with Adam in S4 but he happily put Riley's life in danger in S5, tried to feed Buffy to Dru in S5 and also attacked Buffy in S6.

Yep, and if we happen to find Souled Spike incredibley irritating, with shallow character tics instead of depth then we have a right to call him out on it without people getting up in arms about it.
Oh, and Angel isn't particularly cuddly or teddy bear-like, he does however, have some depth of character.

Feel free to find both souled and unsouled Spike whatever you want. But, as you said, if I disagree I will argue the case. As for Angel - he snapped Jenny Calendar's neck - not because she was a worthy opponent - but because she was in the way and he needed to leave her in Giles bed as a gag gift. Yup - demons are evil. 

I think Joss meant that Spike is more evolved than Angel as he is now, which is complete bull. Without a doubt, Angel was a mess back then. But Angel was also completely alone, with no emotional support and no Buffy to tell him that she believed in him. And no other example of an ensouled vampire to view as a basis. Spike had things pretty easy in comparison, and gets more credit, which is pretty unfair.

I agree with all of this - Spike manages better as a newly souled vampire for a lot of reasons and most of them have to do with Angel. The very fact that Angel has a soul is the only reason Spike would have even considered getting one. My personal theory - which I have expressed a few times - is that Angel is at the center of Spike's core. He is either trying to be the opposite of Angel, or dragging himself to follow the path Angel took. OTH - I think Spike deserves all the credit he gets, and I feel the same way about Angel. I ship the two, and I love them both. 

No, the Romani returned Angel's human soul, and the Cave Demon returned Spike's human soul. The only difference is that Spike gets out of the "Moment of Happiness" clause. Everything else is the same. The soul Angel got didn't come attached with pain, guilt and bad memories, that was a natural reaction to a human being placed in demon body with detailed memories of what that body did, and the same urges telling him to do those things again. Spike went crazy from the guilt after all, so clearly he's got some pain and bad memories to go along with his.

There are other differences - the difference between a curse and a gift. Angel's demon did not chose the soul, and his demon resists it pretty much all the time. Spike's demon did chose the soul and therefore had a much easier time of integrating it. Angel had no other vampire's experience to draw on, no support group of any sort, and no purpose until he met Buffy. Spike had Angel, and Buffy, and a war that needed to be fought within weeks or month of being souled. 

Now, people are saying she had sex with a woman because she was traumatized... what a theory!

That is so insulting on so many levels! 

It's not basically what happened. It IS what happened. They did not WANT trauma so there was no trauma. Simple as that. The trauma that Buffy had, if any, was not deemed important enough to be shown on screen. That is a secondary character.

Well, overall on that day Spike attempted to rape her, Warren managed to kill Tara and Buffy, Willow went dark, saved Buffy and went on a homicidal spree. If we are being realistic then Buffy has far more trauma to deal with than what went on with Spike. 

They wanted to have the 'will they, won't they' S7 crap and that couldn't happen if they honestly dealt with the repercussions of SR. Just like the soul/chip retcon between Seasons. And again the whole story was never even about Buffy so no one bothered to deal with what this meant for her and her journey. No trauma because no one was interested in Buffy's side. Just the simple fact that they allowed Spike to blame all of S6 on Buffy and she just takes it makes that perfectly clear.

But Buffy is not a freaking secondary character. She is the MAIN character of the franchise. Spike is the secondary character. The focus should have been on Buffy in this whole story, it's her damn show.

Wait - if Spike blamed Buffy for all of season 6, then why did he go get a soul? There's a difference between saying Buffy was a complete ingenue who made absolutely no mistakes and saying that Buffy was severely depressed and made some bad calls. One of them was impaling herself on an unsouled vampire because Buffy, more than anyone, knew what a risk that was.

As for Buffy being the main character, that really doesn't mean she is, or even should be the crux of every problem. This is an ensemble cast - there are all sorts of story areas where Buffy is not central to the events.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

impaling herself

LOL.. that's better than tripping and falling on.

 

[bespangeled]

@Mr. Pole - I never said there was no trauma. I said that I was glad that the show didn't take the entirety of season 7 to show Buffy goes to counseling. 

LOL.. that's better than tripping and falling on.

Less painful at least!

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I would rather trip and fall than be impaled.. that being said, being pierced by any option does not sound pleasant.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Buffy was, in that scene (episode?) and much of the next season. They had to promote Spike to leading man. The writers have mentioned it. That was their intent.

Then they should have done the honest thing and renamed the show when it went to UPN. Not like anyone would have noticed judging by the ratings. Most people were too busy watching reruns on another channel anyway.

You ever think that's why SMG so abruptly quit the show?

I've always suspected it was one of the major reasons SMG was done with the show, yeah.

Well would you stay? When 2 Seasons amount to nothing more than you spreading your legs in the fakest sex scenes ever and wiping the butt of the guy who tried to rape you while your character becomes the biggest b!tch ever. What a waste.

I don't think anyone has argued that Spike did not attempt to rape Buffy.

Except that people have.

Wait - if Spike blamed Buffy for all of season 6, then why did he go get a soul?

Who says he did? Oh right, Whedon. Eh I don't care. If it's not on screen it's not canon. Death of the Author.

There's a difference between saying Buffy was a complete ingenue who made absolutely no mistakes and saying that Buffy was severely depressed and made some bad calls. One of them was impaling herself on an unsouled vampire because Buffy, more than anyone, knew what a risk that was.

Buffy is a moron. But I'm not going to blame her for being turned into one by the writers. She knew what Spike was, she knew he could flip out for whatever reason, after Crush she also knew he would force her and oh yeah he is soulles. So Buffy is responsible for her own safety and should not give such a deranged thing an all access pass to her house (where also her sister lives) or to her body.

And it sill does not negate that Spike did what he did. It shouldn't be a surprise to Buffy however (poor thing what have the writers done to you).

 

[gite63]

You ever think that's why SMG so abruptly quit the show?

Abruptly? After seven years? What I heard back then was that Sarah wanted to pursue a movie career. And if memory serves, actually she wanted quit Buffy after Season 5 was done.

Concerning making Spike the lead, I've never read about that back then. And if so, maybe, they wanted Spike to be a lead character, because Sarah was leaving the show.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Abruptly? After seven years?

It was after six. I would consider (allegedly) telling the show runner and (factually) the rest of the cast that you were done via a magazine article that it was abrupt.

maybe, they wanted Spike to be a lead character, because Sarah was leaving the show.

They were at the time of season 6 trying to get the network to invest in Spike series, as ED did not want to do a Faith show.

 

[RomanticSoul]

It was after six. I would consider (allegedly) telling the show runner and (factually) the rest of the cast that you were done via a magazine article that it was abrupt.

That was debunked by Joss himself.

 

[thetopher]

Now, people are saying she had sex with a woman because she was traumatized... what a theory!

Valid theory. The writers made a huge deal of the fact that Spike only touched Buffy a couple of times in S7 and she got upset both times. We were meant to infer (because god forbid we have a confrontation about what Spike tried to do to Buffy...) that she is still traumatised by being around him in any intimate fashion.

This lessens as the season goes on but what happens in 'Touched' is a big deal, both for all those Spuffy fans and their detractors. And Buffy isn't physically intimate with anybody for years afterwards. Why?
She says that she misses sex (sex in generally not nessesarily Spuffy sex) and yet she is hesitant/afraid to be intimate with anybody. That means something- people could inteprete that as the badness of the rape attempt.
Then she has great sex with a girl who she knows is in love with her- oh, and another year or so later Spike is still her 'dark place'. Buffy still associates physical intimacy with him as BAD.

I said that, and I say it again. She felt betrayed by Spike. The Slayer crying "please Spike, stop, please". Please???? The only other time I remember she was so helpless, crying "help, help" was at the time of her Cruciamentum.

Betrayed, viloated, terrified perhaps? Crying out for him to stop doesn't suggest severe disappointment- it implies shock. Bruises on her thighs shows Spike's force and strength. Buffy in tears does not equate extreme disappointment.
This is just...utter shipper blindness.

I think the issue you have is that the writers wrote this scene as a means to propel Spike. Buffy was treated as a secondary character. And like most of the secondary characters on the show, their involvement in that particular beat was simply glanced over.

My issue is that people are denying it actually happened or lessening it to a huge degree- and thatjust doesn't happen with that many other characters.

Does anybody deny that hyena-Xander tried to sexually assault Buffy in S1? Nope, it happened- the only question is how much of it was Xander?

Does anybody question that Faith stole Buffy's body and violated her in the process? Nope, nobody (as far as I know) disputes actual events on the show.

Dispute the motives if you want (they can be kind of murky) but you can't really dispute the events that we are shown. And yet some people are desperate to try.

How about this: Spike tried to rape Buffy because he was an evil demon and had almost certainly done it before to other women. The difference here was that he actually cared about Buffy (in his own twisted way) and afterwards was confused and in shock because of how he could've done it (and also why he didn't go through with it). So Spike does the one thing that no other vampire has done- he goes off to try and become better.

For whatever reasons he vows that he will get a soul so he can...fill in the rest with whatever. Point is that when he returns he is William and (imo) is no longer responsible.
The s7 'victim blaming' by the writers/Spike/Buffy stuff is a separate issue and I've said my piece about it elsewhere.

There is a difference between attempted and almost. Yes , he attempted to rape her. No he didn't almost rape her.

Eh, not much difference in my opinion. My friend certainly considers that she almost raped by a drunk guy at a house party. She broke his nose and his wrist and got away- she wasn't in as much danger as Buffy (Spike was on top of her, ripping her clothes and had his hands between her legs) but the trauma was still there.

I don't think anyone has argued that Spike did not attempt to rape Buffy.

This was posted above:

Buffy wasn't raped. She isn't a "rape survivor".

There was no trauma whatsoever to be dealt over, and that was very cleary showed on the show. Some people want so bad that Buffy, the heroine of the show, had been damaged, but she wasn't.

Buffy survived a rape attempt and somebody is actually denying it happened. I find that incredible.

So at least one person is, and it isn't the first time I've read theories like it. In the Sunnydale cemetery there are some particularly neuseating threads by one particular poster who is a Spike-rape apologist.

Actually interesting since the main characters aren't human. I'm not sure what signs you are looking for.

Humanity is a general term. Like how 'mankind' as a word is generally thought to includes both men and women. I woulds say that Clem has humanity even though his is a demon with no soul. I would also say that Lorne has more humanity that many humans on the show.

You see it as a fundamental flaw - it could be. Nikki didn't deserve to die, but she had a calling that tended toward an early death.

I don't see how saying 'it would've happened anyway' lessens what demon-Spike did to Nikki. He murdered a champion for good and his souled self couldn't give two shits.

Her calling was to kill as many demons like Spike as she could.

And doing everything that Buffy did. Stopping innocents from being murdered by demons and vampires on a nightly basis.

Spike does look for the best possible fight, and the two slayers he killed were the best fights he could find. As for the rest - he was a demon. Demons are evil and they do bad things. I figure we have covered that extensively.

Well I don't care when soulless evil Spike wears the coat. He's soulless and evil, he's earned it, he looks cool in it, that's all fine. But its when soulled Spike wears it that I have a problem.

By retroactively you mean after the unsuccessful murder attempt?

No Spike wore the coat for a few episodes before. I'm sure it made Wood's revenge thinking easier though. That demon was standing there wearing his mother's coat acting pretty much the same and yet claiming that he'd changed. In Wood's shoes I'm not sure I'd have believed in that change either.

Feel free to find both souled and unsouled Spike whatever you want.

Well I LIKE unsoulled Spike. He's a fun badguy and a witty, snarky, interesting and at times even sympathetic vampire who's got a pretty good character arc up until mid-S6.

As for Angel - he snapped Jenny Calendar's neck - not because she was a worthy opponent - but because she was in the way and he needed to leave her in Giles bed as a gag gift. Yup - demons are evil.

That's was Angelus, not Angel, so I don't hold him responsible (even if he himself does).
Angelus kills Jenny because he didn't want to be imprisoned again. Also I think Angelus had a 'better' reason for killing Jenny Calendar than Spike did for killing Nikki Wood (for the fun of it?) and he didn't hide behind any 'that's the way the game is played' bullshit.
Angel even apologised to 'Jenny' and Giles wheras Spike couldn't give a toss and actually went out of his way to piss on Wood's pain and memory of his dead Mom. 

Wait - if Spike blamed Buffy for all of season 6, then why did he go get a soul?

Many possible reasons: So Buffy would be 'forced' to love him perhaps? So he could have another shot at her? When Spike says thinks like 'What has she done to me?' and 'Bitch is gonna see a change' they have tons of loaded conotations when it comes to motive.
Any which way you cut it Spike's motivations for doing something noble were anything but. (imo)