Meta - Spike and Angel(us): I don’t judge them by different standards

[Skanky Vamp]

My issue is that people are denying it actually happened or lessening it to a huge degree- and thatjust doesn't happen with that many other characters.

In my opinion EVERYTHING is lessened to a huge degree. That's why I said before, if you look at the show in terms of 'reality' they are all horrible people. None of them are really redeeming as people, and few are redeeming as characters. People have their favorites and place them on higher rungs and ignore their defects of character.

 

[thetopher]

I see your point...but then again hyena possession doesn't happen in the real world, nor does body-swapping. Other things that happen are couched in metaphor (like what happened with the whole Angel/Angelus thing).

But this is stark, it's a thing that happens in the real world. It's a very emotive issue that should've been dealt with a hell of a lot better, both in exploring the immediate aftermath and not indulging in victim blaming the very next season where the 'culprit' is nowhere to be found yet the guy wearing his face is saying how badly Buffy treated 'him'.
It's a truly obnoxious way to treat a character and the consequences of a serious real-world event.

 

[gite63]

She says that she misses sex (sex in generally not nessesarily Spuffy sex)

Spuffy sex YEAH, she says "that sex", she dreamed of it (Spike side by side with Angel), and she fantasized about doing it with Spike. No trauma, at all. No disgust, no hate, no bad feelings. Just desire to do it again. Because she liked it very much.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I see your point...but then again hyena possession doesn't happen in the real world, nor does body-swapping. Other things that happen are couched in metaphor (like what happened with the whole Angel/Angelus thing).

I didnt say in the real world, I said in reality. In reality ALOT of people should have had their comeuppance, multiple times over, but they never did.

But this is stark, it's a thing that happens in the real world.

And that is why some people have a problem with it. Because it is a 'real world problem' in the confines of a fantasy world show. When most of the problems to date have been treated and handled in terms of fantasy world ramifications. Suddenly, this one act is looked upon and expected to be treated differently than the countless things that have come before it.

If you treat it as no different than Hyena Xander or Buffy encasing a human woman- a mother to a teen daughter at that- in a statue then I dont think you have a problem with it. If you treat it as a real world problem, looking for real world answers and the cause and effects, then will have a problem with it.

That's how I made piece with alot of the BS I found wrong in the series previously. Subsequently thats also when I devalued the series in my hierarchy.

 

[thetopher]

Spuffy sex YEAH, she says "that sex", she dreamed of it

So very wrong. Buffy said 'the sex', not 'that sex'- and she never, ever says anything about Spike. She apparently has repressed dreams about vampire threesomes and nurses outfits...but she also had daydreams about seducing Xander, but that doesn['t mean she acts on them, or that they equate with real feelings.


Buffy does however, sleep with Satsu. And enjoys it very much. 'One of the best nights of my life.'

she fantasized about doing it with Spike

After afterglow godsex with AngelTwilight? That was more about the afterglow of having tons of supernaturally great sex than about Spike. Remember Buffy saying to Angel 'you have my heart but he has a ship'. Why would she fantasise about Spike moments later...after telling Spike how wonderful Angel was?

As I remember Buffy was mostly disgusted with herself for sleeping with Spike- Buffy certainly says as much.

No trauma, at all. No disgust, no hate, no bad feelings.

Wrong again. Spike was still 'her dark place' the season after. He was, at that time, still associated with BADNESS.

Your attempts to paint Spuffy as 'the one true ship' are becoming increasingly desperate.

I will concede that Buffy and Spike seem to be in a better place at the moment. It's a bland place, but its better than it was before.

Just desire to do it again.

Yeah, at that time it was with Angel. 

And that is why some people have a problem with it. Because it is a 'real world problem' in the confines of a fantasy world show. When most of the problems to date have been treated and handled in terms of fantasy world ramifications. Suddenly, this one act is looked upon and expected to be treated differently than the countless things that have come before it.

But then that was the entire point of Buffy S6. Joss and co wanted to 'take the magic' out of the show and make it darker and 'more real' because that's apparently what becoming an adult is in its entirity right?
Therefore they should've been prepared to deal with those problems in a different way to how they'd dealt with all the problems before- in the end they just didn't have the skill.
However, my philosophy when it comes to these things is 'blame the character, not the writer.'

 

[gite63]

Buffy said 'the sex', not 'that sex'-

"And sex. Great, muppety odin, I miss that sex."

Maybe she was talking about Riley...

Your attempts to paint Spuffy as 'the one true ship' are becoming increasingly desperate.

And your attempts to trash Spike... welll, not's go there again... 😀

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But then that was the entire point of Buffy S6. Joss and co wanted to 'take the magic' out of the show and make it darker and 'more real'

That's why you shouldnt change urinals in midstream. Something is bound to get messy.

my philosophy when it comes to these things is 'blame the character, not the writer.'

I tried to think like that, but I tired of banging my head against a wall. Sometimes that philosophy works and sometimes it doesn't, in this instance I don't think it works. I think there were for too many outside influences that need to be taken into account as to why the scene played the way it did, and the ramifications of it. The character was a surrogate for the writers in that instance. In that moment the characters existed solely to implement their will.

 

[thetopher]

I tried to think like that, but I tired of banging my head against a wall.

Boy do I know the feeling, nevertheless the philosophy works most of the time (or at least its the fairest yardstick I've come across) and I apply it evenly to all characters.
For example Giles was written out of the show in S6- that was primarily to do with ASH and the writers, but with the way they went about it I still blame Giles for leaving at such an inoppurtune time, even though he's one of my favourite characters.

Maybe she was talking about Riley...

Quite possibly. They did have sex after all as much as you might wish to ignore it. Lots of guilt-free, non-loathsome sex. Buffy even (drunkenly) hits on Riley in S9, when he was married and everything.

And you still haven't addressed the fact that Spike was Buffy's 'dark place' in S9- she associated him with unpleasent experiences (see her dopey conversation with him in 'Return To Sunnydale' for more evidence) so I truly doubt she was thinking about him in anything less than abstract terms.

And your attempts to trash Spike... welll, not's go there again...

Oh, please. You've been throwing the 'H' word around here since the moment you got here. You've already shown how desperately invested you are in Spuffy. 🙄

 

[gite63]

Oh, please. You've been throwing the 'H' word around here since the moment you got here. You've already shown how desperately invested you are in Spuffy.

Since you are making this converstion - about Buffy and her being tramatized or not - personnal:

I've being throwing the 'H' word since I got here, because after reading tons of past posts, it was clear that you are really and desperately invested in trash Spike. It seems you have a problem with the character, that goes beyond fiction... and you, only you, get very upset when the subject of Spuffy is mentioned. Not my problem, its yours.

Me? Wel, I LIKE Spuffy and the shows, and the comics. I'm not desesperate about anything - and why I would be now, when all things are good, and lovely, and happy?

And you still haven't addressed the fact that Spike was Buffy's 'dark place' in S9- she associated him with unpleasent experiences

Soooo unpleasant that she is now with him... but there's no point in discuss this with you, because, you know, it upsets you a great deal.

 

[thetopher]

I've being throwing the 'H' word since I got here, because after reading tons of past posts, it was clear that you are really and desperately invested in trash Spike.

Wrong. because I've defending Spike on some occassions when others haven't. I have given examples in the past. Go look if you've read 'tons' of my posts.

It seems you have a problem with the character, that goes beyond fiction...

Nope I just don't like boring characters in fiction. There are other characters on Buffy that I dislike more consistantly than Spike.

and you, only you, get very upset when the subject of Spuffy is mentioned.

No, I do get upset when people personally attack me and call me names out of the blue, and also when they claim I have said things I have not. Congratulations then...

Not my problem, its yours.

My problem is you.

Me? Wel, I LIKE Spuffy and the shows, and the comics.

Yes in all its possible connotations, including rapist-Spike. How lovely.

I'm not desesperate about anything

Disagree. You seem desperate to paint ALL spuffy interactions in the best possible light whilst convieniently ignoring the things that count against it.

I think you peaked when you wished for a magical 'Spuffy baby'.

Soooo unpleasant that she is now with him...

Relationships change and move on/develop (most do anyway). You've claimed in the past that Spuffy has been going on since S6 and that Buffy pined for Spike throughout all of S8. That's blatently not true as anyone can see if they read the comics without shipper-glasses.

but there's no point in discuss this with you, because, you know, it upsets you a great deal.

Give me an example of an opinion that I haven't backed up with content from the show/comic? That's what a discussion is- debating what's presented, right?

Why would I be upset when I'm having the best of this particular arguement? 😀

 

[Silverspike]

"Nope I just don't like boring characters in fiction."

Oh come on, you can call Spike many things, but boring?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Oh come on, you can call Spike many things, but boring?

Sure you can.. he became boring.. season 6 & 7. It just felt like a shell of what was once a full and rich character. He was a dynamic character previously and was turned into an archetype. It took a quarter of the following season in Angel to rehabilitate the character.

 

[Silverspike]

Well as in most things millage does vary, cos I didn't find him boring at all. 🙂 
I don't think there's an 'course' at all is there?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I don't think there's an 'course' at all is there?

The way you lecture the healing benefits of Spike sometimes I think there is..

 

[EVIL UU]

Oh come on, you can call Spike many things, but boring?

I personally don't find Spike that boring but I understand why some people do. Spike just doesn't have that much going on for him outside of his relationship with Buffy. On one hand that's OK - he's just a romantic interest of the lead character, let's not expect too much, it's not like, say, Tara has a lot going on for her outside of her relationship with Willow but on the other hand Spike's in 9 #$%&ing seasons of Buffy!!! And in a season of Angel and in his own bloody comic series and in numerous crossovers! Is it not fair to expect something more - I don't know, an actual girlfriend maybe, an internal conflict, a nemesis?

An example, one that illustrates this problem perfectly. Spike and Willow both had their own mini-series in season 9. Compare them. Notice the sheer amount of stuff the writers managed to cram into Wonderland: personal issues, love interest, internal conflicts, nemesis, character development and it's all Willow - Buffy might as well not even exist in that comic. Now, look at A Dark Place - what's going on here, on a personal level? OK, there's some introspection and it's nice but mostly it's still

all
about
#$%^ing
Buffy!
​

Buffy! Buffy! Buffy! Buffy! In Spike's very own comic mind you! And we're what, surprised, that people are sick and tired of it?

 

[Silverspike]

Thing is I don't take much notice of the comics, because to be frank I found them to be rather sh*te myself. 😀

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Now, look at A Dark Place - what's going on here, on a personal level? OK, there's some introspection and it's nice but mostly it's still

all
about
#$%^ing
Buffy!
​

Wait! Are you saying it happened before? I thought just recently was the first time? I mean, since he got his soul and all.

 

[Silverspike]

The way you lecture the healing benefits of Spike sometimes I think there is..

WTF?? I don't think I've ever said such a thing?

 

[EVIL UU]

Thing is I don't take much notice of the comics, because to be frank I found them to be rather sh*te myself. 😀

It's just as true in the TV series, is it not? Again, are we surprised that people are tired?

 

[Silverspike]

Well I wasn't tiered of it, and neither were my friends who watched it at the time.