Meta - Spike and Angel(us): I don’t judge them by different standards

thetopher said:
Yep, Spike's one defining character trait- his love of Buffy- has evolved. Doesn't make him any less shallow.

Then compare him to Wesley, or Faith, or hell even Willow then- people who have struggled with their darkness, confronted it and in the process been profoundly changed by it- because they have humanity/a conscience. That. to me, is telling.
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Willow's kind of debatable. The fact that the Scoobies give her a free pass doesn't sit well with me much more than Spike's "redemption" arc.

And since the article brought up the tired "Angel is Pedo Bear" argument, I'd like to point out that the creators and fans alike point to the scene where Spike watches 16 year old Buffy dancing as the moment he first begins to lust after her. That is a thing that happened. Just throwin' that out there.
 
Mr. Pole said:
But Spike's a vampire.. vampires dont have humanity. They've... demonity.
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To be precise, a vampire is a human/demon hybrid. A demon possessing a human body. With a soul a vampire can be considered to have 'humanity'

Mr. Pole said:
Who needs a conscience when you have a soul. Whedon said on multiple occasions that a soul is simply a conscience. Morality, thats another matter!
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Having a soul gives a person a clearer sense of morality- the choice to do good or evil if you will. I can't help thinking that getting a soul should be a momentus thing that fundemantally alters somebodies character in some way, forever.
 
thetopher said:
Having a soul gives a person a clearer sense of morality- the choice to do good or evil if you will. I can't help thinking that getting a soul should be a momentus thing that fundemantally alters somebodies character in some way, forever.
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No no.. a soul, according to Buffyverse is a conscience. I think you mentioned that before. But that is wholly different from morality. I dont think a soul gives a sense of morality or Spike would have morales. Spike has a conscience but no morality. Angel has morality which is why he feels guilt and questions his actions.
 
thetopher said:
Yep, Spike's one defining character trait- his love of Buffy- has evolved. Doesn't make him any less shallow.



Then compare him to Wesley, or Faith, or hell even Willow then- people who have struggled with their darkness, confronted it and in the process been profoundly changed by it- because they have humanity/a conscience. That. to me, is telling.
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I actually don't think of Spike as shallow. Not even at his most evil. There are a lot of bad things you could attached him, but I don't think that shallow is one of them. At times because of Spikes sharp wit, comic timing, and his passion (regardless of his motives) he actually comes across as having more human qualities and depth than Angel. And no this is not me trying to troll Angel fans, because I see it as something which adds to both characters.
 
As I said Spike unsoulled is interesting, conflicted, layered. Spike with a soul, bizarrely, isn't. He's an amazingly boring character all things considered- take away his love of Buffy and his all personality tics and you don't have anything else.
The writers took 5 seasons to explore Angel's character separate from Buffy, that tells me which is the more interesting/'human'.
 
Mr Trick said:
I actually don't think of Spike as shallow. Not even at his most evil. There are a lot of bad things you could attached him, but I don't think that shallow is one of them. At times because of Spikes sharp wit, comic timing, and his passion (regardless of his motives) he actually comes across as having more human qualities and depth than Angel. And no this is not me trying to troll Angel fans, because I see it as something which adds to both characters.
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I'm not sure I would say Spike has more human qualities than Angel, just different ones. I think people confuse Spike being louder, more extroverted and in your face for having more humanity, when Angel's introverted qualities are just as human. I can certainly relate to Angel's quiet, more contemplative nature more.
 
thetopher said:
It's so nice that unrepentant sociopaths have groupies too. 😀
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You do remember even Angel referred to Spike as a champion, as well as Buffy?

"As if that's a bad thing. We already have one brooding asshole with a perpetual redemption arc."

Ha! Exactly. 😀

"He's an amazingly boring character all things considered- take away his love of Buffy and his all personality tics and you don't have anything else."

In YOUR opinion, not everybodys. But then I've seen enough of your posts to believe whatever Spike's character did you'd find fault with it.
 
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Silverspike said:
You do remember even Angel referred to Spike as a champion, as well as Buffy?
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Neither Angel or Buffy are perfect judges of character, and boy, they were wrong in this case.

Also, Buffy was just making Spike feel better so he would put on the highly unstable magical device- and it worked! 😀
 
thetopher said:
As I said Spike unsoulled is interesting, conflicted, layered. Spike with a soul, bizarrely, isn't. He's an amazingly boring character all things considered- take away his love of Buffy and his all personality tics and you don't have anything else.
The writers took 5 seasons to explore Angel's character separate from Buffy, that tells me which is the more interesting/'human'.
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Sure, but not everyone has your issues with the later Spike representations. It was only really season 7 that they dropped ball with him IMO. From 4-6 he remained just as interesting, but maybe in different ways to before.

I find you're last argument flawed because based on the popluarity of Buffy they were allowed to have a spin off show. The logical character to use was Angel because it gave him a clear break from Buffy (for most the time anyway) and it meant they could explore a different kind of hero. But putting that aside it could have just as easily been Spike who got his own show. It is just that the writers saw the value in keeping Spike on Buffy, but taking his character in a new direction, whereas the options involving Buffy and Angel had peaked.

SiegePerilous02 said:
I'm not sure I would say Spike has more human qualities than Angel, just different ones. I think people confuse Spike being louder, more extroverted and in your face for having more humanity, when Angel's introverted qualities are just as human. I can certainly relate to Angel's quiet, more contemplative nature more.
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No you are right they are just different kind of human qualites. But besides the fact that he is mostly a good egg, or consistently makes the right decisions for the sake of humans (yeah you've probably figured that I am not talking about Spike at this point😱) then a lot of Angel's human qualites or maybe lack of them can be seen as negative too. For example, his lack of social skills or the fact that he does take him a bit too seriously sometimes.
 
bespangeled
bespangeled
Well said!
thetopher said:
Also, Buffy was just making Spike feel better so he would put on the highly unstable magical device- and it worked! 😀
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I dont know about that, but it was because he was going to die that she said she loved him.. to make him feel better. He even knew she was lying to him.
 
Silverspike said:
In YOUR opinion, not everybodys. But then I've seen enough of your posts to believe whatever Spike's character did you'd find fault with it.
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Silverspike said:
So you're even dismissing what was said in canon. Lord you really are a dedicated little hater aren't you. 😀
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And it's just like a Spike fan to resort to personal attacks rather than trying to argue the case- as I've come to expect from you.
For the record, and for the twentieth or so time, I like Spike fine in S2, 3, 4 and 5- I think he adds to the show, not detracts.
The definition of a hater is somebody who hates without distinction, and also without reason becasue they can't argue their case. That is not me.
 
thetopher said:
And it's just like a Spike fan to resort to personal attacks rather than trying to argue the case- as I've come to expect from you.
For the record, and for the twentieth or so time, I like Spike fine in S2, 3, 4 and 5- I think he adds to the show, not detracts.
The definition of a hater is somebody who hates without distinction, and also without reason becasue they can't argue their case. That is not me.
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Don't you think he might have been joking just a little?
 
Mr Trick said:
Sure, but not everyone has your issues with the later Spike representations. It was only really season 7 that they dropped ball with him IMO. From 4-6 he remained just as interesting, but maybe in different ways to before.
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That's why I said unsoulled he's still interesting, layered, flawed. He's not always likeable and sometimes he's downright unpleasent but yeah, he's not dull.

Mr Trick said:
I find you're last argument flawed because based on the popluarity of Buffy they were allowed to have a spin off show. The logical character to use was Angel because it gave him a clear break from Buffy
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No, they gave the spinoff to Angel because of the strength of DB's acting and the fact that the 'vampire with a soul' was an inspired ideas for a different, darker main character for a show.
They could expand the universe beyond just the one town and explore different themes. Instead of the metaphors of growing up it would be about redemption.

And the comics are still keeping these characters ticking along and yet all they do with Spike is keep him around Buffy (or around Angel briefly).
The Spike: A Dark Place spinoff was a snorefest because Spike was out on his own- I'm not really convinced he's not strong enough to hold his own storyline. Into The Light was bad too, even many Spike-fans thought so. 
Mr Trick said:
Don't you think he might have been joking just a little?
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In what way is calling someone a 'dedicated little hater' any kind of joke? It certainly isn't clever or witty is it?
It's just a clumsy personal attack- the kind of behaviour I'm come to expect from...nah, I'm not gonna sink to her level. 😉
 
thetopher said:
Doesn't make him any less shallow.
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I don't know, I think that Spike's mostly kinda lost, trying to figure out who is. Sure, he clings to Buffy and her friends but it's not like he has anybody else, plus, they do care about him, even Xander. Spike's many things. He's got this cool rebel vampire thing going on for him but that's not exactly who he truly is, right? The brooding champion with a mission is not his thing either. The sensitive poet? Not anymore. Not even Buffy's personal punching bag, that's in the past. So who is Spike? It's something he'll have to figure out. That's nowhere near shallow in my opinion.

thetopher said:
people who have struggled with their darkness
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But that's the problem - it's not *his* darkness, at least when one assumes that soulless and ensouled Spike are two different characters. Spike ( with the soul ) is not dark, he has no darkness to struggle with.
 
Well I accept your first argument- he's lost, he clings to stuff just because he's too weak to go it alone. Spike has maybe the potential to be more interesting.

As for the darkness not being his? His love of Buffy muddy's the waters that he feels he has to apologise to her for what he did, what about anybody else? They don't matter to him. In fact he seemed pleased when somebody recognised him as William the Bloody (unfortunately they knew him for his poetry) a few issues ago. So what kind of guy feels bad for one thing but not bad for the worse things he did earlier? That shows that he has the ability to care- he just doesn't.
That is shallow because its ultimately selfish and self-serving.
 
thetopher said:
Spike has maybe the potential to be more interesting.... That shows that he has the ability to care- he just doesn't. That is shallow because its ultimately selfish and self-serving.
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And thats the part where you can say Angel had all of those years. Angel had his soul and was pretending like he was 'normal.' Still eating people, still running around with the fangers. Maybe in a hundred years or so Spike will be more Angel-like and show some penitence.
 
In some defense for Spike, when holst cameback from the demon dimension and Angel wanted to take revenge for taking Connor, Holts reminded him of that he killed his family. Angel backed off and said that he couldnt appologized cause it wouldnt undo anything. Maybe Spike feels like there's nothing to do to redeemed himself in certain cases, so he just blocks it and keeps moving on
 
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