Meta - Spike and Angel(us): I don’t judge them by different standards

[Mr Trick]

That's why I said unsoulled he's still interesting, layered, flawed. He's not always likeable and sometimes he's downright unpleasent but yeah, he's not dull.



No, they gave the spinoff to Angel because of the strength of DB's acting and the fact that the 'vampire with a soul' was an inspired ideas for a different, darker main character for a show.
They could expand the universe beyond just the one town and explore different themes. Instead of the metaphors of growing up it would be about redemption.

And the comics are still keeping these characters ticking along and yet all they do with Spike is keep him around Buffy (or around Angel briefly).
The Spike: A Dark Place spinoff was a snorefest because Spike was out on his own- I'm not really convinced he's not strong enough to hold his own storyline. Into The Light was bad too, even many Spike-fans thought so. 


In what way is calling someone a 'dedicated little hater' any kind of joke? It certainly isn't clever or witty is it?
It's just a clumsy personal attack- the kind of behaviour I'm come to expect from...nah, I'm not gonna sink to her level. 😉

First of all this idea that DB was a great actor at this point let alone better than someone like Marsters is just fanboy fantasy. His limitations were there for all to see. He had very little emoitional range, lacked charasmas and compared with the other central supporting characters and certain supporting character like Spike his character just wasn't that interesting, which is way he was a supporting character for those three seasons on Buffy. Yes he had crucial narrative arc from 2 onwards, but he was still a supporting actor. The two things he had going for him was the spark with SMG, and that actually when they turned his character around it turned out that he was more believeable as an arsehole than as an heroic figure. This is not me even knocking the guy because over the long term like you say the character took off and did justify its own, and to his credit the actor came on leaps and bounds from his Buffy days. But the idea that he got the Angel gig because talent alone is poppy cock.

And I stick to what I said about the reason for the spin-off. Buffy was a huge success and so they thought, "hey you know that Josh kid seems to be on a roll, and the fans who watched his hit show Buffy will follow this show also" Now I am sure that the angle of a Vampire with a soul getting his own show and exploring new ground with the character was a selling point too, but I don't forget they kind of did the same thing with Spike just that they did it the other way around. I don't any reason why could not have carried his own show.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Buffy was a huge success and so they thought, "hey you know that Josh kid seems to be on a roll, and the fans who watched his hit show Buffy will follow this show also"

But that's the beauty of Buffy. Because it wasn't a huge success.. it was only around 3.5 million viewers.. when you compare that to a Twin Peaks which had 20 million viewers and it got canceled for 'poor viewing ratings' it wasn't so much that Buffy was a success, it was Buffy was on a new network and they needed content. If it had been on an existing network it would have been canceled. Thats why every year there was talk that it was going to be canceled, because the ratings were so low. Buffy and Angel were both extremely lucky to last as long as they did, and I dont think anyone would have called them a huge success. (at the time) It really wasn't until season 6 that it got mass appeal. And a large part of that was switching to a bigger network.. that and Buffy's resurrection. Then OMWF really kinda cemented it as it made alot of press. But even at that I dont think they ever cracked double digits, ever. So it always was a niche show.

I mean, look at Firefly.. it was canceled after one season and it had a bigger audience on average than any Buffy season. But it was on an established network.

Sorry.. didn't mean to go off topic..

 

[thetopher]

And thats the part where you can say Angel had all of those years. Angel had his soul and was pretending like he was 'normal.' Still eating people, still running around with the fangers. Maybe in a hundred years or so Spike will be more Angel-like and show some penitence.

He was with Darla in 1900 during the boxer rebellion 'pretending' to be normal and within months he realised that he couldn't be what he once was (after killing only criminals and such) so he fled to America. I'm not sure where you get 'all those years' from but whatever.
The main point is the circumstances of them both getting their souls are different. Angel was cursed and alone for a hundred years with no guidance or rhyme or reason for his 'condition'. Spike went and won his soul- so that he could be with Buffy.
Joss has made claims that Spike is more 'evolved' than Angel because he doesn't feel guilt for what he did whilst soulless or even battle with his inner demon. The 'getting a soul' resolved his inner conflict so I don't see why suddenly he would 'regress' into being like Angel, tortured and penetant.

Maybe Spike feels like there's nothing to do to redeemed himself in certain cases, so he just blocks it and keeps moving on

That isn't what's shown. When confronted with evil deeds from the past Spike either insults the victim (like he did with Wood in 'LMPTM') or blusters his way through, like in this classic exchange from Damage:

SPIKE: Explains why that skirt was yappin' at me in Chinese. Must've thought she was the slayer I took out back in the Boxer Rebellion.

ANGEL: You mean the slayer you murdered.

SPIKE: Well, I didn't have a soul back then, did I?

ANGEL: Right, 'cause having one now is making such a difference.

and this:

SPIKE: (stops, turns to Angel) What do you want me to do? Go all boo-hoo 'cause she got tortured and driven out of her gourd? Not like we haven't done worse back in the day.

ANGEL: Yeah, and it's somethin' I'm still payin' for.

SPIKE: And you should let it go, mate. It's startin' to make you look old.

and also this:

SPIKE: Right. Let me explain. You got visions. Right? Vampire slayer memories kickin' around in your head. Which is tough... 'cause it sounds like you're past midnight on the crazy clock anyway.

DANA (cowering): Please don't. I have to get home to my son... to my Robin.

SPIKE: Robin? Oh. Hey, you're talkin' about Nikki, the slayer I offed back in— (Dana looks up at him) Uh, yeah. You probably don't want to think about that, pet.

DANA: (with an accusational tone) William the Bloody.

SPIKE: No. No. No. That's not gonna lead anywhere good. You want to focus on what's real.

He's hardly hiding his guilt now is he? He's not suddenly going to evolve into Angel. Spike figures that he's got nothing to be sorry for.

First of all this idea that DB was a great actor at this point let alone better than someone like Marsters is just fanboy fantasy. His limitations were there for all to see. He had very little emoitional range, lacked charasmas and compared with the other central supporting characters and certain supporting character like Spike his character just wasn't that interesting, which is way he was a supporting character for those three seasons on Buffy.

*sigh* more rudeness. Fine, I'm not really a Angel fanboy though, I'm just going by what Joss himself has said. He commented on DB's specific performance in 'I Only Have Eyes For You' when he was possessed by the ghost of the female teacher.
Joss said that DB impressed in the way that he wasn't afraid to play a vulnerable, feminine role entirely sincerely and straight, it led to Joss and David Greenwalt thinking 'yeah, this guy could carry his own show.' That's what happened. Fact.

Yes he had crucial narrative arc from 2 onwards, but he was still a supporting actor. The two things he had going for him was the spark with SMG, and that actually when they turned his character around it turned out that he was more believeable as an arsehole than as an heroic figure.

Well, that's entirely your opinion with nothing to back it up really. DB impressed as Angelus, he did have a certain dark chartisma, but it was his turn in one episode that meant he would be brought back in S3.
A lot of S3 was just Angel being built up for his own show, and as it turned out the spinoff was a success from the very first episode.

This is not me even knocking the guy because over the long term like you say the character took off and did justify its own, and to his credit the actor came on leaps and bounds from his Buffy days. But the idea that he got the Angel gig because talent alone is poppy cock.

No, its fact that he got it for a particular episode performance. Add to that his screen presence and looking good with his shirt off and there we have it. Joss did the same thing with JM for his performance in 'Lover's Walk'. He say that the character of Spike, as a drunken, heartbroken mess, could have more story potential- it's the main reason he was brought back in S4.
Joss made the same call with Eliza Dushku's Faith and with Emma Caulfield's Anya. DB isn't unique in his one off role as a supporting character growing into something much bigger, he was just the first.

 

[EVIL UU]

As for the darkness not being his? His love of Buffy muddy's the waters that he feels he has to apologise to her for what he did, what about anybody else? They don't matter to him. In fact he seemed pleased when somebody recognised him as William the Bloody (unfortunately they knew him for his poetry) a few issues ago. So what kind of guy feels bad for one thing but not bad for the worse things he did earlier? That shows that he has the ability to care- he just doesn't. That is shallow because its ultimately selfish and self-serving.

It's not about the ability to care, I don't think it's that simple.

Spike enjoyed being a vampire. The freedom, the violence, the blood, the intensity of the hunt - he loved it. Kill two slayers, f#%* one - it's as awesome as it gets. Of course, the ensouled Spike understands the evil of his acts but he still remembers how he felt - the power and the confidence and the certainty that come with being a monster, the taste of the slayer's blood, the happiness, really. He can't free himself from it and he shouldn't even try to pretend that he loathed it - it's a road that leads to self-hatred. See: Angel. Of course he's not sorry for killing Nikki Wood - it was bloody awesome! So that's who Spike was. Metaphor time. Imagine that you are a guitarist in a pop-punk band. You made it big! Money, drugs, sex, addiction - all the excess, all the time, no limits. Fast forward a few years - you're clean, you've grown as an artist, you hate punk music and you think that your band sounds like shit. You wish to play the blues now but you're not ready yet, you don't have it in you, maybe you won't ever. Meanwhile, the fans still love your music. They still love your punk persona and even though you think that your music sucks, you still enjoy the energy of the stage, cherish the fond memories. You know how to do it, it's safe and it's comfortable even though it's not really you anymore. Or is it?

That's Spike basically. By the way, guess who's his biggest fan? Buffy is. She wants the old Spike - the monster ( What I want is the Spike that's dangerous. The Spike that tried to kill me when we met ) the punching bag, the stalker obsessed with her validation, the yes man and finally, her dark place.

Punk or blues? William or Spike? Monster? Champion? Poet? It's complicated. Look how much time it took Willow to figure it out. Hacker? Good witch? Bad witch? Man, these two are so much alike in some aspects.

His love of Buffy muddy's the waters that he feels he has to apologise to her for what he did, what about anybody else?

Hey, it's a start. Pentatonic minor.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I'm not sure where you get 'all those years' from but whatever

All the years from the point he realized that he had to dump his old friends (when he fled to America) until he went on a concerned effort to atone by helping Buffy.

 

[thetopher]

Spike enjoyed being a vampire. The freedom, the violence, the blood, the intensity of the hunt - he loved it. Kill two slayers, f#%* one - it's as awesome as it gets. Of course, the ensouled Spike understands the evil of his acts but he still remembers how he felt - the power and the confidence and the certainty that come with being a monster, the taste of the slayer's blood, the happiness, really. He can't free himself from it and he shouldn't even try to pretend that he loathed it - it's a road that leads to self-hatred. See: Angel. Of course he's not sorry for killing Nikki Wood - it was bloody awesome! So that's who Spike was. Metaphor time. Imagine that you are a guitarist in a pop-punk band. You made it big! Money, drugs, sex, addiction - all the excess, all the time, no limits. Fast forward a few years - you're clean, you've grown as an artist, you hate punk music and you think that your band sounds like shit. You wish to play the blues now but you're not ready yet, you don't have it in you, maybe you won't ever. Meanwhile, the fans still love your music. They still love your punk persona and even though you think that your music sucks, you still enjoy the energy of the stage, cherish the fond memories. You know how to do it, it's safe and it's comfortable even though it's not really you anymore. Or is it?

That's interesting I suppose, although I think the analogy is a little...simplistic perhaps? Rape, violence and murder isn't music (not even punk music...) and even if we take the comparison at face Spike doesn't hate his old music, he actually quite likes it. He happiliy boasts about killing two slayers, he's proud when someone recognises William The Bloody', he doesn't at all feel bad of his old ways.
He tells Faith that he reformed way before she did. Soulled Spike considers the betrayal of Buffy and co to Adam, the attempted killings, the (stupid) demon egg thing, the attempted rape of Buffy- it's all just part of his reformation to being 'good', and now its over. Just teething troubles and to given no more thought than that.

Again, I'm not saying 'Spike must be like Angel', but something, a change in behaviour, anything: lose the coat, the phony accent, the stupid hair, these are outward cosmetic signs but they all speak to Spike's self-image.
He's still thinks he's that guy: the feared 'killer of slayers', the 'Big Bad' and yet he wants to worthy of something else, something more?
Maybe he should start by taking a long, hard look at himself.

That's Spike basically. By the way, guess who's his biggest fan? Buffy is. She wants the old Spike - the monster ( What I want is the Spike that's dangerous. The Spike that tried to kill me when we met ) the punching bag, the stalker obsessed with her validation, the yes man and finally, her dark place.

Spike's biggest fan is almost certainly Spike. (Or maybe somebody lurking on these boards...)
If Buffy thought so highly of him as a fully rounded 'champion' and not as some sort of always present, convenient validation for herself then they'd probably be together by now. Who knows, maybe they will. 

All the years from the point he realized that he had to dump his old friends (when he fled to America) until he went on a concerned effort to atone by helping Buffy.

I think that there's active penetance (doing good) and passive penetance (wallowing in guilt and so forth). Angel did the latter for a long time before somebody put him on the right path.
Even now I don't think Angel sees an end, a time when he's done atoning. Actually I pray that he doesn't 'cause usually that's when he screws up.

I guess it's similar to Faith thinking she has to suffer in prison for years, and then breaking out and realising that making a difference is better because she actually can try and atone.

 

[jom]

That isn't what's shown. When confronted with evil deeds from the past Spike either insults the victim (like he did with Wood in 'LMPTM') or blusters his way through, like in this classic exchange from Damage:

SPIKE: Explains why that skirt was yappin' at me in Chinese. Must've thought she was the slayer I took out back in the Boxer Rebellion.

ANGEL: You mean the slayer you murdered.

SPIKE: Well, I didn't have a soul back then, did I?

ANGEL: Right, 'cause having one now is making such a difference.

and this:

SPIKE: (stops, turns to Angel) What do you want me to do? Go all boo-hoo 'cause she got tortured and driven out of her gourd? Not like we haven't done worse back in the day.

ANGEL: Yeah, and it's somethin' I'm still payin' for.

SPIKE: And you should let it go, mate. It's startin' to make you look old.

and also this:

SPIKE: Right. Let me explain. You got visions. Right? Vampire slayer memories kickin' around in your head. Which is tough... 'cause it sounds like you're past midnight on the crazy clock anyway.

DANA (cowering): Please don't. I have to get home to my son... to my Robin.

SPIKE: Robin? Oh. Hey, you're talkin' about Nikki, the slayer I offed back in— (Dana looks up at him) Uh, yeah. You probably don't want to think about that, pet.

DANA: (with an accusational tone) William the Bloody.

SPIKE: No. No. No. That's not gonna lead anywhere good. You want to focus on what's real.

He's hardly hiding his guilt now is he? He's not suddenly going to evolve into Angel. Spike figures that he's got nothing to be sorry for.

you got a point. But we both know how that episode ended, dont we?, of course we do.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, which is why 'Damage' is a very good episode for the Spike/Angel dynamic. As usual Angel is right and Spike is wrong. 😀

But seriously this episode shows character growth of a sort, it's just a shame it doesn't last beyond 'Not Fade Away'.

 

[EVIL UU]

but something, a change in behaviour, anything: lose the coat, the phony accent, the stupid hair, these are outward cosmetic signs but they all speak to Spike's self-image.

But that's all he's got - there's nothing to fall back to, it's either Spike or William Pratt - momma's boy and an awful poet from 19th century. We're, what, surprised that Spike would rather be, you know, Spike?

Maybe he should start by taking a long, hard look at himself.

Well, yeah. Spike needs a new identity but it's a process. It takes time, like Willow's transformation from a high school nerd to a super f$%#ing heroine. Give him some time man, he's getting there. He's gonna make it, I'm sure of it. Fingers crossed.

 

[The Bronze]

Imagine that you are a guitarist in a pop-punk band. You made it big! Money, drugs, sex, addiction - all the excess, all the time, no limits. Fast forward a few years - you're clean, you've grown as an artist, you hate punk music and you think that your band sounds like shit. You wish to play the blues now but you're not ready yet, you don't have it in you, maybe you won't ever. Meanwhile, the fans still love your music. They still love your punk persona and even though you think that your music sucks, you still enjoy the energy of the stage, cherish the fond memories. You know how to do it, it's safe and it's comfortable even though it's not really you anymore. Or is it?

Ahh man change blues for slow boring rock and you've described The Starting Line at Groezrock 2013. But erm yeah Spike...

Spikes a guy trying to find his place in the world. I don't think there's any rush though and I think he's handling himself just fine while he figures it out. He's been travelling and captained a space ship. He's hooked up with a few women. He's currently part of a group who do their best to protect the world. He's got himself a new job. It's not bad for a guy discovering who he is.

I don't understand why some people are so desperate to see Spike on his own or not with the scoobies. He has no family, any acquaintances he might have are most likely evil. He knows the scoobies. He knows what they're about and there's no harm in him being a part of that.

From their point of view Spike is a trusted friend now despite a colourful history with them. He might be discovering who he is but they know one very important thing about him. When the chips are down this is a man who will walk into hell with them. Who will stand and be slowly incinerated while they escape. It's not a bad quality to have in a friend really.

 

[Mr Trick]

He was with Darla in 1900 during the boxer rebellion 'pretending' to be normal and within months he realised that he couldn't be what he once was (after killing only criminals and such) so he fled to America. I'm not sure where you get 'all those years' from but whatever.
The main point is the circumstances of them both getting their souls are different. Angel was cursed and alone for a hundred years with no guidance or rhyme or reason for his 'condition'. Spike went and won his soul- so that he could be with Buffy.
Joss has made claims that Spike is more 'evolved' than Angel because he doesn't feel guilt for what he did whilst soulless or even battle with his inner demon. The 'getting a soul' resolved his inner conflict so I don't see why suddenly he would 'regress' into being like Angel, tortured and penetant.



That isn't what's shown. When confronted with evil deeds from the past Spike either insults the victim (like he did with Wood in 'LMPTM') or blusters his way through, like in this classic exchange from Damage:

SPIKE: Explains why that skirt was yappin' at me in Chinese. Must've thought she was the slayer I took out back in the Boxer Rebellion.

ANGEL: You mean the slayer you murdered.

SPIKE: Well, I didn't have a soul back then, did I?

ANGEL: Right, 'cause having one now is making such a difference.

and this:

SPIKE: (stops, turns to Angel) What do you want me to do? Go all boo-hoo 'cause she got tortured and driven out of her gourd? Not like we haven't done worse back in the day.

ANGEL: Yeah, and it's somethin' I'm still payin' for.

SPIKE: And you should let it go, mate. It's startin' to make you look old.

and also this:

SPIKE: Right. Let me explain. You got visions. Right? Vampire slayer memories kickin' around in your head. Which is tough... 'cause it sounds like you're past midnight on the crazy clock anyway.

DANA (cowering): Please don't. I have to get home to my son... to my Robin.

SPIKE: Robin? Oh. Hey, you're talkin' about Nikki, the slayer I offed back in— (Dana looks up at him) Uh, yeah. You probably don't want to think about that, pet.

DANA: (with an accusational tone) William the Bloody.

SPIKE: No. No. No. That's not gonna lead anywhere good. You want to focus on what's real.

He's hardly hiding his guilt now is he? He's not suddenly going to evolve into Angel. Spike figures that he's got nothing to be sorry for.



*sigh* more rudeness. Fine, I'm not really a Angel fanboy though, I'm just going by what Joss himself has said. He commented on DB's specific performance in 'I Only Have Eyes For You' when he was possessed by the ghost of the female teacher.
Joss said that DB impressed in the way that he wasn't afraid to play a vulnerable, feminine role entirely sincerely and straight, it led to Joss and David Greenwalt thinking 'yeah, this guy could carry his own show.' That's what happened. Fact.



Well, that's entirely your opinion with nothing to back it up really. DB impressed as Angelus, he did have a certain dark chartisma, but it was his turn in one episode that meant he would be brought back in S3.
A lot of S3 was just Angel being built up for his own show, and as it turned out the spinoff was a success from the very first episode.



No, its fact that he got it for a particular episode performance. Add to that his screen presence and looking good with his shirt off and there we have it. Joss did the same thing with JM for his performance in 'Lover's Walk'. He say that the character of Spike, as a drunken, heartbroken mess, could have more story potential- it's the main reason he was brought back in S4.
Joss made the same call with Eliza Dushku's Faith and with Emma Caulfield's Anya. DB isn't unique in his one off role as a supporting character growing into something much bigger, he was just the first.

1. Fair enough, but it isn't fact because it cannot be proven one way or the other. They may well be mixing fact and fiction. I suspect that the truth is that was the first time that DB made them really impressed, and showed a skill beyond what they hired him for. Then a little later on when they had the idea for the Angel spin-off that episode got tied in with the whole thing. Fact is it sounds much better to say that based on one performance we believed this guy could do it, than just to say well he slowly built this up over a number of episodes and we liked the idea of giving the character his own show etc... Now of course I can't prove any of this its just my opinion. And back to the spinoff, if Buffy had not been a success the spin-off would not have been made. Just like if the original Star Wars had died at the box office then George Lucas never would have been green lit to make the other two films.

2. Of course I have nothing to back it up. I never passed it off as gospel, its just my opinion based on watching him as the good version of the character. Don't forget I did praise him as Angelus. Basically because of his bland facial expressions, good looks and his build he was best at being cocky, and sinister or funny in a deadpan kind of way. And to his credit he really made it work as Angelus and again to his credit he vastly improved his range as an actor over the five years on Angel. But in my humble and opinion he was a long way off that during his Buffy run.

3. Guess I can't argue too much with this point.

But that's the beauty of Buffy. Because it wasn't a huge success.. it was only around 3.5 million viewers.. when you compare that to a Twin Peaks which had 20 million viewers and it got canceled for 'poor viewing ratings' it wasn't so much that Buffy was a success, it was Buffy was on a new network and they needed content. If it had been on an existing network it would have been canceled. Thats why every year there was talk that it was going to be canceled, because the ratings were so low. Buffy and Angel were both extremely lucky to last as long as they did, and I dont think anyone would have called them a huge success. (at the time) It really wasn't until season 6 that it got mass appeal. And a large part of that was switching to a bigger network.. that and Buffy's resurrection. Then OMWF really kinda cemented it as it made alot of press. But even at that I dont think they ever cracked double digits, ever. So it always was a niche show.

I mean, look at Firefly.. it was canceled after one season and it had a bigger audience on average than any Buffy season. But it was on an established network.

Sorry.. didn't mean to go off topic..

Thanks for that it does give me some context. I mean I know that Buffy is a cult show which in the long term became hughly popluar, but I suprised that for most of its time it was avenging that sort of figures. I would have assumed that it started out with those numbers, but from around 3 or 4 just get bigger and bigger. I mean I think X-Files got something like 11 Million during its peak run which for a Sci-Fi show I guess is good going.

 

[bespangeled]

My point was really not the initial recognition, it's that Buffy knew by S3 'Amends' the difference between Angel and Angelus. She hates one and loves the other.
In contrast by S10 of the comics Buffy clearly doesn't know the difference between chiped Spike and soulled Spike- she had sex with one, but was 'intimate' with the other. She blurs and whitewashes and excuses- that's my point.

I don't read the comics, so you are on your own there. Sorry - comic references mean nothing to me.
And yes, Buffy believes that Angel/Angelus is a case of separate entities rather than a continuum.

See, this is the double standard that I most often see with Spike fans.
If you treat Spike and Angel as seperate people soulless and soulled you can't say soulled Spike didn't didn't attempt to rape Buffy, but he did protect Dawn- that's having it both ways. Like Buffy you're talking the good and then hand-waving away the bad because 'that wasn't really them', It's a dishonest arguement.

Angelus didn't do a single good thing in his existance as far as I can see- he sadistically tormented innocents, created the monster that is Drusilla and was basically so unpleasent that other vampires didn't really didn't like to be around him. He was cruel anti-social bully, others might've admired him, but only Darla and co. it seems could be in his company for any length of time.

That's ridiculous - because chipped Spike did good things he can't have any credit? And the reason is that Angelus didn't do any good things? How is it unfair to notice what is actually going on in the show?

Again - chipped Spike is not the same as either of his other two incarnations. He wants to be evil, but he can't really do much. He's still a demon and he wants to express himself - but he has this care-taking streak that also eventually needs expressing. It's really the only part he can express. He is an interesting example of operant conditioning. Cut off from the ability to be truly evil, and with no support network, he begins to express other parts of himself. That makes him no less demon and evil - it just makes him ineffective and confused, and falling back into old habits that actually do have good results.

More important - Angel is an alpha male whether he is evil or good. He does the big things, sees the big picture. Evil Angel is a psychopath - he is in absolute control and as he says "I couldn't take my eyes off them. I was only in it for the evil. It was everything to me. It was art. The destruction of a human being. I would've considered Dana a masterpiece." He has to have a reverse sort of empathy to know the pain he is causing. And he has to intimately know each victim, or each important victim.

Evil Spike is a sociopath - disorganized and completely lacking in empathy. He like to make a huge mess, love the crash, loves the mess, loves shouting 'nyah, nyah!" and then fighting his way out. He's not one for the preshow - he wants attention. He learns how to get it by being the biggest A-hole he can be. because Angel definitely used those psychopathic techniques on his family (it's who he was) and Spike loved to play chicken. Piss him off - take the beating - prove your toughness and get attention.

But I do hold Angel accoutable for the bad things he did- feeding off evil people when he was still with Darla, leaving those Hyperion guests to die in the 50's, letting evil W&H lawyers die an ironic death at the hands of their own scheme. In context we see these bad, morally murky actions as understandable but still wrong- that's the strength of his show and his character.
It's a balance; Angel has done far more good soulled than Spike has so far- is not really even close, but he's also done many more bad things, on his own show and in the comics. That's why I reference the comics by the way- they're canon.

They may be canon, but when you reference them to me I won't be following whatever you are saying. Angel had an entire century of being soulled before he met Whistler. In that century the best you can hope is that he was morally neutral most of the time. He actually started fighting evil in season 1 of BTVS. Chipped Spike started fighting evil in season 5, albeit for selfish reasons.

As for who did more:
ANGEL
I helped save the world, you know.

SPIKE
Like I haven't.

ANGEL
Yeah, but I've done it a lot more.

SPIKE
Oh, please.

ANGEL
I closed the hellmouth.

SPIKE
I've done that.

ANGEL
Yeah, you wore a necklace. You know, I helped kill the mayor and, uh, and Jasmine and—

SPIKE
Do those really count as savin' the world?

ANGEL
I stopped Acathla. That saved the world.

SPIKE
Buffy ran you through with a sword.

ANGEL
Yeah, but I made her do it. I signaled her with my eyes.

SPIKE
She killed you. I helped her!
(points)
That one counts as mine.

ANGEL
My point is I'm better than this. OK? We're better than this. What the hell could Buffy see in him?

Ah, not really. Chipped Spike was still a monster. As soon as he thought the chip wasn't working in 'Smashed' the first thing he did was go out and try and murder someone. For all his claims of being 'reformed' or 'changed' he hadn't really- he just loved Buffy instead of Drusilla, that's not much of a change.

Yes, he is absolutely still a demon. He wants to be evil - wants to be free of constraint. But he is also different from unchipped Spike because he also wants to fulfill his promise to Buffy, and he takes care of Dawn. He is both evil and care-taking, and very confused. At that point in time it is definitely all about Buffy (and Dawn and Joyce). He's selfish, and has limited amounts of any sort of emotional maturity, but he's no longer stone cold unrepentant evil.

Sorry but this is projecting. Whistler has told Angel to go and see the new slayer being called, not to leer at a fifteen year old. He might've thought that she was beautiful (I'm sure lots of viewers did) but he didn't act on romantic feelings until much later on.

In your view it is projecting - in my view it is uncomfortably skeevy and stalkery. I think there are plenty who see it both ways - even Bangel fans can find those scenes disturbing. I think they were meant to be - why else make Buffy into such a Lolita? The lollipop was a deliberate attempt to sexualize her.

No, stalking has a personal, obsessive component- also it requires y'know following somebody around.. What we're seeing is Angel being given a purpose, a job if you will, by somebody who plucked him up off the streets and said 'you wanna do good? Then go help her.'
Sure Angel liked Buffy, there were romantic feelings but its Buffy that makes the first move.

We see Angel watching her from a car, and peering into her window - then we see him show up behind her in an alley (apparently channeling Angelus in his personality at that point). He is obsessed with Buffy. She is the entire center of his being. She is the light to follow - and as far as I can tell there is no one else in Sunnydale he even knows. In fact, he admits he is stalking her and Buffy calls him her stalker - more than once.

Yes, he has good reasons and they end up with a fairy tale romance - complete with ogre. Buffy definitely loves him, and he loves her.

Again, twice isn't a stalker pattern. And maybe if Buffy had shown, I don't know, ANY alarm at this, then maybe it would've been a issue. If Buffy didn't have a problem with it then why is he stalking her?

Because he wants information about her. And Buffy actually expresses annoyance with his stalking, shortly after they meet.

Maybe its the 'I hold them to the same standard'- the author of this article accuses Angel of stalking Buffy- which requires a personal/obsessive/romantic component to it, and then ignores the fact that about 50% of Spike's actions towards Buffy unsoulled or soulled have consisted of stalking her. It's silly.

I said that the evindence of him stalking her is 'projecting' other motives/emotions than the ones shown on to his actions. In the beginning he's helping her, there are no romantic intentions until Buffy makes that first move. Even after that he stays away from her until S2
The only time I can remember Angel actually stalking Buffy was in S4 'Pangs' and she then goes to LA and rightly chastises him for it.

I have no idea what you are saying here at the beginning. It seems that if Angel is seen doing anything less than gentlemanly it is an accusation. Angel is not perfect, and his relationship with Buffy is not perfect. Yes, he does stalk her, but as you said his intention is not to harm her. I don't believe that the article ever implies that he is seeking to harm her in any way. And I think it's pretty much a given that Spike stalked Buffy - because we saw a lot of it in the show. He definitely was not nearly as good as Angel at the whole secrecy part.

As was comparing Harmony to soulless Spike in S4- basically there is no logical reason for this person not to be staked. And also for most of S7 Spike is more a liability than a help- he's not useful but because of Spuffy he's kept around.

Oh, give me a break. So it is bad for a character to be popular? I would imagine that every character and every relationship on the show had fan service. And now we go back to the evil writers and directors who catered to a popular character. Weren't you the one who said that this is the weakest argument. I happen to agree. Very weak.

I happen to like the fact that eventually Buffy gets to the point (her and the show) that they decide not to kill harmless characters because they are annoying. In fact, I always kinda wonder about those who advocate killing him.....because they don't see why he should be alive and he's irritating. Hate to share a workplace with them.🙂

I don't remember Angel blaming anybody but himself for the actions of Angelus, never mind his own bad calls. Yes, he broods like an emo/goth but he does actually have reasons for doing so- it's not pretense. It's not 'I'm a victim so love me.'
Spike barely ever acknowledges that there are victims other than himself that have suffered for his vampirism. It's only until 'Damage' that he shows some growth away from this fundementally selfish outlook.

Angel is about introspection - brooding - guilt. But brooding and guilt do nothing. Action is what counts, and action is what makes him a hero. Spike is not much for introspection - or chest beating. He doesn't stay up and alphabetize his sins as Cordy says about Angel. He is about the here and now and doing what he can to help. That does not make him less of an A-hole, or particularly courteous.

Yeah he's okay, fun because he plays off different characters and because of his relationship with Angel, but his character flaws are still all present and correct. 😉

Flaws are the center of a character - I agree.😉

I don't see that much character growth for Spike in the comics, the writers don't seem to know what to do with him. Contrast that with Faith's character growth, or Giles development in his relationships or the shit load that Angel has been through (good and bad)
It shows the shortsightedness of doing what they did with Spike's character in Buffy S7- they had him 'evolve' too quickly so he come be 'what Buffy needed' and then he dies in 'Chosen'. He wasn't meant to come back but they brought him back anyway for Angel (where he was better) and now...he's just around

Part of why I don't read the comics is that I don't like what they have characters do. Frankly, once I read about Angel being Twilight I decided I so completely disagree with him doing evil that I couldn't agree. I have a much higher opinion of Angel than that!😱

 

[bespangeled]

Yep, Spike's one defining character trait- his love of Buffy- has evolved. Doesn't make him any less shallow.



Then compare him to Wesley, or Faith, or hell even Willow then- people who have struggled with their darkness, confronted it and in the process been profoundly changed by it- because they have humanity/a conscience. That. to me, is telling.

I know - and yet you repeat the same things. Basically his personality didn't change enough. He can still be an A-hole. There are all sorts of human ones in my life, and sometimes I listen and find out why they act that way, and sometimes I just get pissed off. But I am pretty sure they all have souls.

The difference is in his actions. His demon was the one that chose to get a soul. He doesn't need to prove things to others - he did need to make reparation for the harm he did Buffy. He's really more like Faith, who also doesn't brood or self flagellate. Her changes are in her choices. Other than her party clothes she still dresses the same, and pretty much say what she wants. Wesley looks very different, and sounds very different, but a case could be made that Wesley went to the dark side. At least he explored his inner darkness. Willow is pretty much the same, though she does decide to kick Buffy out of her own house - the main difference I see is bad taste in new lovers and a real fear of magic. 

Willow's kind of debatable. The fact that the Scoobies give her a free pass doesn't sit well with me much more than Spike's "redemption" arc.

And since the article brought up the tired "Angel is Pedo Bear" argument, I'd like to point out that the creators and fans alike point to the scene where Spike watches 16 year old Buffy dancing as the moment he first begins to lust after her. That is a thing that happened. Just throwin' that out there.

Oh, hell yes. That was definitely stalking. Though Spike had no soul so you do kind of expect him to be evil. Angel was the hero and he was souled, so not so much evil. 

To be precise, a vampire is a human/demon hybrid. A demon possessing a human body. With a soul a vampire can be considered to have 'humanity'



Having a soul gives a person a clearer sense of morality- the choice to do good or evil if you will. I can't help thinking that getting a soul should be a momentus thing that fundemantally alters somebodies character in some way, forever.

Look at Angel then. In most of the first hundred years of being souled, from what I can see, he either brooded, fed on evildoers, or partied with stars. Then, in the late seventies he went to live with rats in an alley. But he never had any real wish to redeem himself until he met Buffy (yeah Whistler was how and why). In Spike's first months of being souled he burned to death closing the hellmouth. Again, the wish to redeem himself came from knowing and hurting Buffy - and from having a sire who was souled. 

No no.. a soul, according to Buffyverse is a conscience. I think you mentioned that before. But that is wholly different from morality. I dont think a soul gives a sense of morality or Spike would have morales. Spike has a conscience but no morality. Angel has morality which is why he feels guilt and questions his actions.

Morals are actions. Conscience is thought. Shouldn't that be reversed? 

Well I accept your first argument- he's lost, he clings to stuff just because he's too weak to go it alone. Spike has maybe the potential to be more interesting.

As for the darkness not being his? His love of Buffy muddy's the waters that he feels he has to apologise to her for what he did, what about anybody else? They don't matter to him. In fact he seemed pleased when somebody recognised him as William the Bloody (unfortunately they knew him for his poetry) a few issues ago. So what kind of guy feels bad for one thing but not bad for the worse things he did earlier? That shows that he has the ability to care- he just doesn't.
That is shallow because its ultimately selfish and self-serving.

Or maybe he doesn't want to flaunt his emotions for the entertainment of those like.....

ANGEL
(walks in)
A lot of pain?

SPIKE
More than I'd like. But not as much as you would. Just what I deserve.

ANGEL
(sighs)
I didn't say that.

SPIKE
No. I did. The lass thought I killed her family. And I'm supposed to what, complain 'cause hers wasn't one of the hundreds of families I did kill? I'm not sayin' you're right... 'cause, uh... I'm physically incapable of saying that. But, uh... for a demon... I never did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush. I liked the crunch. Never did look back at the victims.

Yup - no conscience there. No guilt. Or maybe just after a year of being souled, being insane, fighting evil, dying to save puppies, and being reconstituted, etc, he is finally coming to grips with the difference in a not being insane way. 

In some defense for Spike, when holst cameback from the demon dimension and Angel wanted to take revenge for taking Connor, Holts reminded him of that he killed his family. Angel backed off and said that he couldnt appologized cause it wouldnt undo anything. Maybe Spike feels like there's nothing to do to redeemed himself in certain cases, so he just blocks it and keeps moving on

Agreed. Expressing guilt and pain for what you did does nothing. The people you hurt are all dead. But helping people not die does something. And quite frankly, dying in order to save the world - regardless of motive - is still a very good and not dull thing. Big character arc from School Hard to Chosen, IMO.

 

[thetopher]

That's ridiculous - because chipped Spike did good things he can't have any credit? And the reason is that Angelus didn't do any good things? How is it unfair to notice what is actually going on in the show?

It's not ridulous at all. You can't treat them as two separate entities and then say 'well, Spike did good things while he was soulless'. It doesn't matter- two different people. Vampire and vampire with a soul.

Yes, he is absolutely still a demon. He wants to be evil - wants to be free of constraint. But he is also different from unchipped Spike because he also wants to fulfill his promise to Buffy, and he takes care of Dawn. He is both evil and care-taking, and very confused. At that point in time it is definitely all about Buffy (and Dawn and Joyce). He's selfish, and has limited amounts of any sort of emotional maturity, but he's no longer stone cold unrepentant evil.

Spike helped save the world in S2 out of his love for Drusilla. Even a demon without a chip he was capable of empathy/love for another person. With the chip it just switched from Drusilla to Buffy (and Dawn because Buffy asked him to).
I will bother pointing out yet again all the evil stuff Spike tried to do whilst chipped.

The lollipop was a deliberate attempt to sexualize her.

😱😱

...That says far more about you than about the writers. I saw it as just a part of the 'immature vapid valley girl' thing that Buffy was into at that time. I guess its lucky she wasn't eating a bannana...🙄

He is obsessed with Buffy. She is the entire center of his being. She is the light to follow - and as far as I can tell there is no one else in Sunnydale he even knows. In fact, he admits he is stalking her and Buffy calls him her stalker - more than once.

She calls him a stalker exactly tewice- their first meeting where he does admit to following her- so he give her useful information. Following is not stalking, stalking has more complex psychological components than just walking behind somebody or seeking them out to give them information. It involves spying, invasion of privacy, obsession.
That's Agelus not Angel.

I would also point out that Angel is entirely capable of obsessing over a woman- but that woman was Darla in S2 of his own show.

Because he wants information about her. And Buffy actually expresses annoyance with his stalking, shortly after they meet.

Again their first meeting and then in 'When She Was Bad' where Buffy wasn't really in her right mind- she was being a grade-A bitch. Proof of which was challenging Angel to a fight whilst her friends were in danger. 🙄

I have no idea what you are saying here at the beginning. It seems that if Angel is seen doing anything less than gentlemanly it is an accusation.

Just factually accurate would be nice. As I said Angel is capable of obsessive behaviour, but not in those early Buffy years. The author is wrong.

Angel is not perfect, and his relationship with Buffy is not perfect.

Never said it was- you really do have a habit of putting words in people's mouths don't you?

Yes, he does stalk her, but as you said his intention is not to harm her. I don't believe that the article ever implies that he is seeking to harm her in any way.

Not stalking. The article goes on to imply instant sexual interest of a fifteen year old girl. I'd say that was harmful in and of itself, and also untrue, as I've argued.

And I think it's pretty much a given that Spike stalked Buffy - because we saw a lot of it in the show. He definitely was not nearly as good as Angel at the whole secrecy part.

Spike was in Buffy's house multiple times without her knowlwedge, he stands outside her house most nights lurking and watching, he steals her clothes, her underwear, he built a shrine to Buffy in his crypt. I'd say he was an equal to Angelus at the whole stalking thing.
Soulled Spike is pretty good too as it turns out.

I happen to like the fact that eventually Buffy gets to the point (her and the show) that they decide not to kill harmless characters because they are annoying. In fact, I always kinda wonder about those who advocate killing him.....because they don't see why he should be alive and he's irritating. Hate to share a workplace with them.🙂

Let's be clear. Spike is a serial killer, not the 'annoying neighbour/work collegue'. It would not be petty to kill a 'harmless' character that has slaughtered hundreds/thousands over the years.
Buffy doesn't do it because she believes' it basically wouldn't be honourable to kill something that's defenceless.

Oh, give me a break. So it is bad for a character to be popular? I would imagine that every character and every relationship on the show had fan service. And now we go back to the evil writers and directors who catered to a popular character. Weren't you the one who said that this is the weakest argument. I happen to agree. Very weak.

Forstly I wouldn't call Harmony 'popular' by any stretch, and I woasn't even arguing this. Putting words in my mouth again.

Soulled Spike is a shallow character precisly because the fans wanted to handwave away any possible redemption/character development so that Spike could get back to making eyes at Buffy. Cue Buffy 'needing' him to be the killer he was. Spike obeys (and what else is new) and then sticks with that all through Angel S5. It's kinda pathetic.

Angel is about introspection - brooding - guilt. But brooding and guilt do nothing. Action is what counts, and action is what makes him a hero. Spike is not much for introspection - or chest beating. He doesn't stay up and alphabetize his sins as Cordy says about Angel. He is about the here and now and doing what he can to help. That does not make him less of an A-hole, or particularly courteous.

Actually it does, when Spike boasts about doing all those bad things like killing slayers it kinda does make him a A-hole, far far worse than Angel's reactions to his own past sins.
If Angel constantly boasted about how fearsome he was as Angelus I'd consider him no less of an A-hole.

He's really more like Faith, who also doesn't brood or self flagellate.

Wrong again. Spike is nothing like Faith apart from the whole 'rebellious ' thing- it's a shallow comparison.
Faith does brood. See this is where the comics come in handy, 'cause you don't get the full picture. In 'No Future For You' Faith broods an awful lot, she's called on to the awful jobs other, newer slayers can't ike kill vampiric children. She broods, plus there's always been a strong streak of self-hatred/self-flagelance in Faith even when she was evil (see where Faith beats 'herself' in Who Are You' and tell me that's no flagalent).
Faith is actually a lot more Catholic than she realises. She wants forgiveness, knows on some level that she doesn't deserve it (and therefore is reluctant to ask) which is again going on in the comics.

Again if say, Faith went around sporting a piece of clothing from one of her more memorable victims I'd call her out on it because maybe that's not what somebody with any decency would do.

Other than her party clothes she still dresses the same, and pretty much say what she wants. Wesley looks very different, and sounds very different, but a case could be made that Wesley went to the dark side. At least he explored his inner darkness. Willow is pretty much the same, though she does decide to kick Buffy out of her own house - the main difference I see is bad taste in new lovers and a real fear of magic.

Or maybe he doesn't want to flaunt his emotions for the entertainment of those like.....

God when does Spike NOT want to flaunt his emotions. He does it all the time. He just doesn't care about all those memories of death and murder. I'm not saying he should be like Angel, just...some difference would be y'know, understandable. Hell, even realistic.

Wesley and Willow are changed by darkness in them, no matter how it got there it changes them and their outlook on things. Spike remains...mostly the same except his inner conflict has gone.

Yup - no conscience there. No guilt. Or maybe just after a year of being souled, being insane, fighting evil, dying to save puppies, and being reconstituted, etc, he is finally coming to grips with the difference in a not being insane way.

And it doesn't stick. No lasting realisation of the damage he's wrought, he'd rather just hang around with and pine for Buffy. He feels bad about her but nothing else. ...Oh, I'm wrong he did show a lot of emotion when his slayer coat got burned up in the 'GIQ', so there, the guy has a heart. 🙄

 

[The Bronze]

Oh, I'm wrong he did show a lot of emotion when his slayer coat got burned up in the 'GIQ', so there, the guy has a heart

I've never known someone to hate a coat quite as much as you!

I personally think it was a little more morbid of Angel to allow a demon to feed on the inhabitants of the Hyperion for 50 years and then return with his financial advisor once the property value had dropped to tidy up and take advantage of the discount.

 

[thetopher]

I've never known someone to hate a coat quite as much as you!

If you don't get why wearing the coat of somebody you murdered and meanwhile professing to be 'good now' is morally repugnant then I really won't gain anything by trying to explain it to you. 🙄
I'll simply say that it isn't the coat, its what it represents.

I personally think it was a little more morbid of Angel to allow a demon to feed on the inhabitants of the Hyperion for 50 years and then return with his financial advisor once the property value had dropped to tidy up and take advantage of the discount.

Really? I think it's entirely reasonable for Angel to return to the site of a place where he failed to save people from themselves and then re-use that place to relocate his 'helping people' business. Seems like a another, albeit symbolic way, for him to atone for a failing. The tax break was entirely practical.

Give me one reason why Spike needs to wear that coat besides style?
Pathetic.

 

[Kana]

I personally think it was a little more morbid of Angel to allow a demon to feed on the inhabitants of the Hyperion for 50 years and then return with his financial advisor once the property value had dropped to tidy up and take advantage of the discount.

To be fair, the difference is that Spike seemed be gloating over the fact he obtained the coat by killing a Slayer...

SPIKE
No, not a jacket. My jacket. You have no idea what I went through to get this.

ANGEL
You stripped it off a body of a dead slayer.

SPIKE
Well, which gives it great sentimental value. Besides, I've been wearin' it for over 30 years. It's like a part of me.

ANGEL
Get over it. Buy a new one.

Whereas Angel seemed to see his purchasing the Hyperion as a symbolic part of his redemption.


WESLEY
Angel, surely you more than anyone must appreciate, how for the better part of the last century this place has been host not only to a malevolent demonic presence, but the very worst faces of humanity! - This is a house of evil.

ANGEL
Not anymore.

 

[EVIL UU]

I don't understand why some people are so desperate to see Spike on his own or not with the scoobies. He has no family, any acquaintances he might have are most likely evil. He knows the scoobies. He knows what they're about and there's no harm in him being a part of that.

I think that the comics aren't doing the best job at portraying Spike as a full-blown member of the gang. He mostly interacts with Buffy and Xander ( and they still mostly talk about Buffy anyway ) but what about Dawn, Giles and Willow? It enforces that Spike is an outsider narrative 'cause Scoobies get to interact with each other one on one, even if it's Anya and Tara. I understand the constraints of the medium but Willow still gets to do or talk stuff with just Giles, Xander, Buffy and Dawn. You know what, I like one of the upcoming covers, the one with Spike playing video games with his, oh my, bros. We need more stuff like this.

 

[The Bronze]

I think if you can explain to me how not wearing the coat will either bring Nicki back from the dead or improve his ability to help people that would do the trick.

So style for one. Warmth for two, I'm sure vampires can get chilly. Protection from the sun for three, sometimes a vampire is going to get caught out and it's a good size to cover himself. Seems to be a reasonable thickness so it might offer some protection from attacks from behind for four. Black is good for going unnoticed at night for five.

 

[Silverspike]

"ANGEL
Not anymore."

No, he waited till he arrived at Wolfram and Hart for all that to kick off. 😀