Meta - Spike and Angel(us): I don’t judge them by different standards

[bespangeled]

@thetopher The coat was already destroyed in TGIQ - but he could have offered a replica. 😉

Let me get this straight - Spike is eternally evil as long as he wore the coat that he took from a slayer he killed before he was soulled (or a replica of the coat, I assume) because he didn't freely give it to someone who ambushed him, and tried to kill him. He remains evil because he didn't express regret after he survived the murder attempt.😱

Angel is eternally good. In a similar situation when he was attacked by a mob under the influence of a fear demon he could have killed - he knowingly let everyone die a horrible long death. Then he went in and took the stolen money and bought the place for pennies - but he was good because he expressed his regret.😀

And the only way we can not judge them by different standards is to completely ignore all the good things Spike did without a soul (but with a chip) because acknowledging them is somehow unfair to Angel. However Spike never became good even though he went and got a soul because he didn't change his wardrobe like Angel did. 😕

I kinda see why the meta was written.🙄

 

[Skanky Vamp]

@thetopher 😉
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This forum needs more emoticons.

 

[bespangeled]

This forum needs more emoticons.

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[The Bronze]

@EVIL UU

I could definitely go for some more scooby - Spike interactions. I don't think it would take too much space for the writers to include either. Just start an issue off with Spike and Willow coming out of the cinema, something simple like that.

Giles and Spike could realistically strike up a decent friendship. As you say all us Brits love tea for a start. They must have some shared musically interests. They use to watch random crap on the TV together as well. Maybe a scene with them checking out a local gig. I think the beers with Xander was a good start and hopefully we'll see some more.

I think Willow has a very maternal streak. We've seen her be a mother figure to Dawn so I'm not surprised that she acts similarly with Giles. It's an odd vibe to get my head around though.

 

[thetopher]

Let me get this straight - Spike is eternally evil as long as he wore the coat that he took from a slayer he killed before he was soulled (or a replica of the coat, I assume) because he didn't freely give it to someone who ambushed him, and tried to kill him. He remains evil because he didn't express regret after he survived the murder attempt.😱

Didn't say soulled Spike was evil, just shallow and incredibly selfish/self-absorbed. Boasting about his former evil deeds and wearing the representation of the coat of his victims means that he lacks basic morality when it comes to victims. I'm sorry but it really is that simple.

Angel is eternally good. In a similar situation when he was attacked by a mob under the influence of a fear demon he could have killed - he knowingly let everyone die a horrible long death. Then he went in and took the stolen money and bought the place for pennies - but he was good because he expressed his regret.😀

Wow, I never said this either so you're two for two on this score. (Or perhaps four for four if I count your last post...or six for six from the last time you accused me of things I didn't say...)
I have never said that Angel was 'eternally good' or any such thing- I've often stated that he was morally grey, flawed, stupid and sometimes self righteous.

And the only way we can not judge them by different standards is to completely ignore all the good things Spike did without a soul (but with a chip) because acknowledging them is somehow unfair to Angel.

It's not really about being unfair to Angel (because, again, I never said this).
If we take the fact that souled and unsouled Spike are two separate characters (just like Angel and Angelus) then no way that unsouled Spike (chip or no) should get credit for the good and not blamed for the bad (which is what Spike fans don't like)
But fine, if souled Spike gets praise for staying to protect Dawn, then soulled Spike should take the blame for trying to rape Buffy. It's really that simple. I don't think this is particularly fair on either vampire but whatever.

I kinda see why the meta was written.🙄

Because Spike-fans love putting words in other people's mouths? Seriously I'm getting so very tired of you doing thing.
Maybe if you read what people say instead of trying to use every single emoticon then we might get somewhere. Until then I think I'll be better off debating elsewhere. *looks in vain for pity emoticon*

 

[EVIL UU]

I don't think Spike killed Nikki or Xin Rong out of self defense.

It's not self defense - I agree but it's not just sport either. Look at it from the point of view of a vampire. The slayer is a monster, one that hunts your kind and wants to drive it extinct, one that kills your friends and lovers, one that forces you to run into the night. I can understand why vampires would want to kill them and to be honest, I can't blame them. It's not unfair.

SoulledSpike was an asshat in terms of what he said to Wood.

Well, most people are towards those who try to kill them, right? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[bespangeled]

Didn't say soulled Spike was evil, just shallow and incredibly selfish/self-absorbed. Boasting about his former evil deeds and wearing the representation of the coat of his victims means that he lacks basic morality when it comes to victims. I'm sorry but it really is that simple.


Wow, I never said this either so you're two for two on this score. (Or perhaps four for four if I count your last post...or six for six from the last time you accused me of things I didn't say...)
I have never said that Angel was 'eternally good' or any such thing- I've often stated that he was morally grey, flawed, stupid and sometimes self righteous.


It's not really about being unfair to Angel (because, again, I never said this).
If we take the fact that souled and unsouled Spike are two separate characters (just like Angel and Angelus) then no way that unsouled Spike (chip or no) should get credit for the good and not blamed for the bad (which is what Spike fans don't like)
But fine, if souled Spike gets praise for staying to protect Dawn, then soulled Spike should take the blame for trying to rape Buffy. It's really that simple. I don't think this is particularly fair on either vampire but whatever.


Because Spike-fans love putting words in other people's mouths? Seriously I'm getting so very tired of you doing thing.
Maybe if you read what people say instead of trying to use every single emoticon then we might get somewhere. Until then I think I'll be better off debating elsewhere. *looks in vain for pity emoticon*

Sorry but the only part of this that was directed to you was the comment that the coat no longer existed in season 9. That could be why you feel I am misrepresenting what you say. You take personally things that I mean more generally. But this is all in response to your comment.

Souled and chipped and unsoulled Spike are three separate characters
Souled and unsouled Angel are two separate characters.
Chipped Spike did some things that were good - mostly for selfish reasons. That does not make the AR any less horrific - in fact the way I see it this is what make the AR far more horrific. So chipped Spike gets both blame and credit. However, soulled Spike would not have assaulted Buffy - on fact he doesn't even touch her unless requested.😀

🙄

 

[Ethan Reigns]

What is all this idiocy about Nikki's coat? American soldiers in WWI proudly showed sidearms that they obtained by disarming German officers. WWII American soldiers were proud to display samurai swords they obtained by killing Japanese soldiers. News flash - soldiers like to take trophies! As @EVIL UU said, the slayer is the enemy of the entire vampire population. When they met, it was kill or be killed. The trophy is irrelevant - it is just a symbol of a battle won.

 

[The Bronze]

Souled and chipped and unsoulled Spike are three separate characters

You can't really argue the case for three Spikes with the chip and a soul being fundamental changes. If you're going to go that route then you need to make a case for four Spikes. 1. Unsouled & unchipped, 2. unsouled & chipped, 3. soulled & chipped and 4. soulled & unchipped.

For me it's just two Spikes. Soul or no soul. The chip is just a behaviour modifier. It's not a fundamental change to the person.

 

[jom]

Souled and chipped and unsoulled Spike are three separate characters

No bespangeled, Chipped Spike and Unsouled are the same character, even soul Spike is the same character, only he has a conscience now. But i can live with souled and unsouled being different characters however chipped and unsouled Spike is the same bagaboo. Spike with a chip wants to eat and kill humans, he just cant. The chip is not the thing that makes him fall for buffy, he's a romantic, a believer in love, he's always been inlove with a girl.

 

[Kana]

It's not self defense - I agree but it's not just sport either. Look at it from the point of view of a vampire. The slayer is a monster, one that hunts your kind and wants to drive it extinct, one that kills your friends and lovers, one that forces you to run into the night. I can understand why vampires would want to kill them and to be honest, I can't blame them. It's not unfair.

Well, just be clear I'm not necessarily judging Spike for what he's done without a soul, because the nature of the soul is so opaque, but I don't think that he killed Slayers as some kind of protest against the 'unethical treatment of vampires'. He sought them out specifically because he was tired of fights he knew he was going to win (from Fool For Love). He found it exhilarating. He gladly sought out confrontations, because he believed getting as close to death as possible gave his unlife joy and purpose. It short, he found it fun.

Well, most people are towards those who try to kill them, right? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Again, just so my position is clear, I'm not arguing moral superiority here one way or the other. I'm just calling asshat behaviour when I see it. What Spike said in LMPTM, had no Utilitarian purpose but to make himself feel better. For the record, I have no issue with him kicking the crap out of Wood, that is self defense but to oversimplify the situation as a game was pointlessly cruel. The funny thing is, at the end of the episode, he acknowledges that, despite his soulless perspective, he could recognize it was more than a game to Nikki and Wood...

SPIKE
I gave him a pass on account of what I did to his mother...

As for the jacket, I'm merely calling him on his attitude here, but in the scheme of things, I wouldn't hold it in the same regard as say murdering loads of Slayers and manipulating Buffy for "the greater good", so trust me, I'm not arguing moral superiority of either character. What's most important to me, is that both of them are a part of the solution rather than the other thing.

 

[thetopher]

Sorry but the only part of this that was directed to you was the comment that the coat no longer existed in season 9.

Right, fine. Clearer that up.

Souled and chipped and unsoulled Spike are three separate characters

Nope. Like Buffy and co said a chip is not a soul. Spike did things without a chip for his love of Drusilla, Spike did things with a chip for his love of Buffy. Same motivation, same charracter.

Souled and unsouled Angel are two separate characters.

Yep, imo they are very different in the way they act. Angel's behaviour somtimes echoes Angelus' but they are two distinct people. See 'Orpheus'.

So chipped Spike gets both blame and credit. However, soulled Spike would not have assaulted Buffy - on fact he doesn't even touch her unless requested.

I don't see chipped Spike as distict from unchipped Spike so unsoulled Spike gets the credit for fighting Angelus along side Buffy, and helping to stop Glory. He's one and the same.
Soulled Spike doesn't get credit or blame but sacrificed himself to save the world. To me that is his highpoint.

What is all this idiocy about Nikki's coat? American soldiers in WWI proudly showed sidearms that they obtained by disarming German officers.

I've heard this excuse before and it's THIS comparison that's idiotic. Spike isn't a soldier (another compariosn I find utterly insulting), he's a monster, a serial killer who deliberatly stalks and then murders a woman.
Just because that woman can fight back doesn't make 'less wrong' (it could be argued that it's more wrong to kill a 'champion of good' like a slayer than an icconent person, because Nikki's life was saving innocents).
Spike's still wearing what is the equivelant of a trophy a serial killer would wear.
It's basically like if every time Angel looked at Drusilla he's say to someone 'man, I did a hell of a number on her. I was really awesome back in the day.'

Angel has his own problems, separate from Angelus, but he doesn't take pride in his past actions the way Spike does.

 

[Mr Trick]

Right, fine. Clearer that up.



Nope. Like Buffy and co said a chip is not a soul. Spike did things without a chip for his love of Drusilla, Spike did things with a chip for his love of Buffy. Same motivation, same charracter.



Yep, imo they are very different in the way they act. Angel's behaviour somtimes echoes Angelus' but they are two distinct people. See 'Orpheus'.



I don't see chipped Spike as distict from unchipped Spike so unsoulled Spike gets the credit for fighting Angelus along side Buffy, and helping to stop Glory. He's one and the same.
Soulled Spike doesn't get credit or blame but sacrificed himself to save the world. To me that is his highpoint.



I've heard this excuse before and it's THIS comparison that's idiotic. Spike isn't a soldier (another compariosn I find utterly insulting), he's a monster, a serial killer who deliberatly stalks and then murders a woman.
Just because that woman can fight back doesn't make 'less wrong' (it could be argued that it's more wrong to kill a 'champion of good' like a slayer than an icconent person, because Nikki's life was saving innocents).
Spike's still wearing what is the equivelant of a trophy a serial killer would wear.
It's basically like if every time Angel looked at Drusilla he's say to someone 'man, I did a hell of a number on her. I was really awesome back in the day.'

Angel has his own problems, separate from Angelus, but he doesn't take pride in his past actions the way Spike does.

But isn't it just too simplistic a reading to claim that Spike takes pride in his past actions. I mean clearly when he was the bad Spike between years 2 and 3, and even 4 he did, but I don't know if you can say that about him from S5 onwards.

 

[bespangeled]

You can't really argue the case for three Spikes with the chip and a soul being fundamental changes. If you're going to go that route then you need to make a case for four Spikes. 1. Unsouled & unchipped, 2. unsouled & chipped, 3. soulled & chipped and 4. soulled & unchipped.

For me it's just two Spikes. Soul or no soul. The chip is just a behaviour modifier. It's not a fundamental change to the person.

If you want to - I skip souled and chipped because it's short and mostly crazy - and the First is also in the mix. Souled, chipped, insane, and triggered into killing that somehow makes chip not worked. It is definitely a different state - call it trauma, and being helped by Buffy.

Behavior changes:
unsoulled and unchipped - hires the order of taraka to kill the slayer
Unsouled and chipped - makes a sexbot and then risks his unlife to go into battle for Buffy
Souled - chipped or not - crazy with guilt, triggered, and doing everything he can to help Buffy - dying instead of running off with her.

These really are different states, and I think that's part of why the soul was easier for Spike. He was kinda halfway there - no longer hunting, no longer considering humans prey, having human companions, getting knocked down the food chain and adapting. 

No bespangeled, Chipped Spike and Unsouled are the same character, even soul Spike is the same character, only he has a conscience now. But i can live with souled and unsouled being different characters however chipped and unsouled Spike is the same bagaboo. Spike with a chip wants to eat and kill humans, he just cant. The chip is not the thing that makes him fall for buffy, he's a romantic, a believer in love, he's always been inlove with a girl.

Of course they are the same character! We have Angelus is evil then Angelus is cursed with a soul. Then see what the soul did.
Then we have Spike is evil then Spike goes out to get a soul for absolutely no reason at all. You really think that the Spike from season 2 would ever fight for his soul? He would have gladly raped and killed Buffy. It took the chip to start key changes. Season five Spike is radically different from School Hard. First Spike got the curse (to never be a vampire in his actions) and then he got the soul.

But they are all Spike. 

Right, fine. Clearer that up.

Thanks - I appreciate. 🙂

Nope. Like Buffy and co said a chip is not a soul. Spike did things without a chip for his love of Drusilla, Spike did things with a chip for his love of Buffy. Same motivation, same charracter.

Completely true - but he did very different things for Drusilla. He was no longer able to do those demon - and they would have repelled Buffy. So he had to come up with new things - had to adapt. An awful lot of them were creepy or weird but a few were insightful and heroic. Spike is a creature of action - a pure adrenalin junkie and the poster boy for ADHD much of the time. That didn't change. He didn't do it to just to do some good. But he did take actions very different from what he would have done in season 2 when he was unchipped.

Yep, imo they are very different in the way they act. Angel's behaviour somtimes echoes Angelus' but they are two distinct people. See 'Orpheus'.

Orpheus is one of my favorite episodes ever. Faith and Angel are so perfect together in that - everyone is. "Dude, you just rescued a puppy!"

I don't see chipped Spike as distict from unchipped Spike so unsoulled Spike gets the credit for fighting Angelus along side Buffy, and helping to stop Glory. He's one and the same. Soulled Spike doesn't get credit or blame but sacrificed himself to save the world. To me that is his highpoint.

Okay , I can live with that.

I want to point out that while Angelus and Angel are very different, they do share some traits. When Angel gives that look that say "I will kill you slowly if you don't do what I say" I know where it came from. Angelus left him a very big and useful tool box. Angel's intent and morality are different, but he can intimidate, get answers, do what has to be done.[/QUOTE]

 

[jom]

Of course they are the same character! We have Angelus is evil then Angelus is cursed with a soul. Then see what the soul did.
Then we have Spike is evil then Spike goes out to get a soul for absolutely no reason at all. You really think that the Spike from season 2 would ever fight for his soul? He would have gladly raped and killed Buffy. It took the chip to start key changes. Season five Spike is radically different from School Hard. First Spike got the curse (to never be a vampire in his actions) and then he got the soul.

But they are all Spike.

He fell in love with bufy, just like he fell inlove with drusilla just like he fell inlove when he was human. the chip allowed spike access to be close with buffy and the scoobie because buffy didnt fear him, but he hated them and betrayed them more than a few times. He was always attracted to buffy and when he was allowed to be around her he fell in love. He has always fallen inlove with the girl. he is love's bitch, but dont kid yourself, he was still evil. The chip was just a pain inducer to make him behave. Just because he fell inlove with buffy doesnt mean that he's not evil

 

[bespangeled]

He fell in love with bufy, just like he fell inlove with drusilla just like he fell inlove when he was human. the chip allowed spike access to be close with buffy and the scoobie because buffy didnt fear him, but he hated them and betrayed them more than a few times. He was always attracted to buffy and when he was allowed to be around her he fell in love. He has always fallen inlove with the girl. he is love's bitch, but dont kid yourself, he was still evil. The chip was just a pain inducer to make him behave. Just because he fell inlove with buffy doesnt mean that he's not evil

Yeah - definitely evil. He is a demon. With Drusilla he raided orphanages to make her happy - he created beautiful wicked messes with and for his ripe dark plum.

Many betrayals in season 4 and early 5 - much creepiness

Still evil when he becomes infatuated/entranced by Buffy in season five. I can't call it love because it's demon love. He can't bring her a tasty toddler, or destroy a convent with her. Round about mid season five, while he was intrinsically evil and working in large for selfish reasons he began watching over Joyce and Dawn, agreeing to protect Dawn and kinda bonding with her, etc. This does not make him good - he is still selfish, and lacking in key emotions. This makes him someone evil who is doing things that are very much not evil. Even if it is demon love, he does care about Buffy, and Dawn so he goes against his nature as a predator (like he could still be one, hah) and helps out the prey.

Everyone has pointed out that Spike's conversion to the light side did not start with pure motives. It started with selfish motives but good actions. And good actions are a large change as you point out.

 

[jom]

Yeah - definitely evil. He is a demon. With Drusilla he raided orphanages to make her happy - he created beautiful wicked messes with and for his ripe dark plum.

Many betrayals in season 4 and early 5 - much creepiness

Still evil when he becomes infatuated/entranced by Buffy in season five. I can't call it love because it's demon love. He can't bring her a tasty toddler, or destroy a convent with her. Round about mid season five, while he was intrinsically evil and working in large for selfish reasons he began watching over Joyce and Dawn, agreeing to protect Dawn and kinda bonding with her, etc. This does not make him good - he is still selfish, and lacking in key emotions. This makes him someone evil who is doing things that are very much not evil. Even if it is demon love, he does care about Buffy, and Dawn so he goes against his nature as a predator (like he could still be one, hah) and helps out the prey.

Everyone has pointed out that Spike's conversion to the light side did not start with pure motives. It started with selfish motives but good actions. And good actions are a large change as you point out.

As you pointed out, when you are inlove, you go above and beyond, you go against your nature. Demon love or whatever you call it, it is still love. No he will not bring her a tasty toddler, he did that with Drusilla because that's what made drusilla happy. You know what makes buffy happy?, the safety and well being of her love ones, and the safety of people. And so once again Spike is up to the task.

 

[white avenger]

A lot has been said about whether or not ensouled Spike should continue to wear Nikki Wood's coat. Could that coat not be considered the same as a trophy taken from an enemy, brought home by a soldier? No one could say that Slayers and vampires aren't enemies, and whether Spike could be considered a soldier or not, he certainly saw his coat as a trophy that he had earned in mortal combat, and, as such, he had every right to wear it.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

he certainly saw his coat as a trophy that he had earned in mortal combat, and, as such, he had every right to wear it.

Sure.. he does. But there is a difference but the right to wear something and the good taste to wear it. Just as certain people have right to wear the pointed white hoods and light bonfires, and others run around with confederate flags on their cars. They have the right, doesn't mean its in good taste when you are dealing with people that may find it offense. In Spike's case that being Robin Woods.

 

[white avenger]

Sure.. he does. But there is a difference but the right to wear something and the good taste to wear it. Just as certain people have right to wear the pointed white hoods and light bonfires, and others run around with confederate flags on their cars. They have the right, doesn't mean its in good taste when you are dealing with people that may find it offense. In Spike's case that being Robin Woods.

Wearing his coat around Robin Wood would certainly be considered as being in bad taste is Spike had, indeed, have known that Nikki was his mother, of which Spike had no knowledge until Robin informed him. By that time, and afterward, I think that it was as much a question of his honoring the wishes that he once again be the old Spike, because that was the warrior she needed him to be, and he felt that the coat was an actual part of that character. And, as far as taste is concerned, wouldn't it also be considered bad taste to allow him to wear that coat in Robin's presence without at least mentioning it to him? Giles certainly knew the origin of the coat, and Buffy quite likely did as well, but nothing is ever said about their callous attitude concerning Robin's feelings.

And, as far as your references to the Klan and the Confederate flag are concerned, I do agree about with your interpretation of the symbols for the KKK are concerned, and you left out the most offensive of all, the burning cross, the Confederate flag is a valid part of Southern history and culture, just the same as the countless monuments erected to its heroes. Far more atrocities, war crimes, and acts of ethnic and racial prejudice were enacted under the symbol of the American flag during World Wat 2 than were ever committed by the Confederacy in its four years of existence, and yet I am expected, and do, honor and respect that symbol of our history and culture, going so far as to devote four years of my life to service in its military It's ironic that this should come up in a thread that addresses double standards.