Meta - Spike and Angel(us): I don’t judge them by different standards

[Skanky Vamp]

It's ironic that this should come up in a thread that addresses double standards.

Why's it ironic? I know it's double standards. Of course its double standard. But also, you have to admit that America is different. Americans simply dont care. How many Britians have fear about showing their cultural heritage? How many Germans? etc etc. From my experience they feel guilty about their countries past actions or inactions. Not individually, but as a whole. Americans should feel some of that. Americans should feel guilt over the Indians, over slavery, over any of the numerous atrocities, but for the most part we dont. To the victor goes the spoils. That is the point you are making with the Spike jacket. And it's a valid point, from one perspective. 

Unfortunately.

Unfortunately!?! So it would be better if he was an American acting that way!?!?! Gee.. thanks for that.

 

[thetopher]

Unfortunately!?! So it would be better if he was an American acting that way!?!?! Gee.. thanks for that.

I...never said 'American', I just always find it slightly harder to hate English characters.
Better if he were french. 😛

 

[EVIL UU]

WWII American soldiers were proud to display samurai swords they obtained by killing Japanese soldiers.

Exactly, it went further than taking just weapons or other equipment though, coming home with a skull ( or ears, teeth, other body parts ) of a fallen Japanese soldier was actually quite common ( it's why I mentioned Nikki's skull ) even stuff like using bones to make knife handles and such wasn't unheard-of.

Leather coat? Still civilized enough all things considered, I mean, for a soulless monster.

Spike isn't a soldier (another compariosn I find utterly insulting), he's a monster, a serial killer who deliberatly stalks and then murders a woman.

True, but to his kind that woman is also a serial killer.

 

[thetopher]

True, but that woman is also a serial killer - to his kind.

That's just moral equivelancy and you're comparing demons with humans. It's not an excuse a souled being can cling to.

 

[white avenger]

How so? He was hardly acting as a Watcher. And I am certain librarians in England are not double 00 category. If Watchers went around killing people then they wouldn't be called Watchers they would be called Do-ers. But that's beside the point.

No, Giles wasn't a Watcher when he killed Ben, but his actions were based on Watcher policy, which is pretty much the only set of rules that would apply in this case. Ben was the human host of a creature who had barely been stopped before opening a portal through any number of dimensions, in effect destroying them all. Even after that threat had been averted, Glory was capable of causing untold death and destruction to the world and the human race. Killing Ben was the only way to neutralize that threat. It might be considered a hard hearted call to make, but it was also the only call possible that would get the required results.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Watcher policy

What's the Watcher Policy? More importantly HOW did this topic and posts get merged into the Spike one?

 

[white avenger]

What's the Watcher Policy? More importantly HOW did this topic and posts get merged into the Spike one?

The Watcher policy seems to be whatever they judge it to be as is appropriate to the situation as they see it.

And the topic sort of devolved from comparing Spike's actions with and without without a soul to Faith's actions with a soul, to discussing Faith killing Finch, to when, if ever, the taking of human life is acceptable, to the example of Giles killing Ben.

 

[NightLady]

Spike and Angel(us): I don’t judge them by different standards
I’ve been thinking a lot about perspectives I often see concerning Spike and Angel, and how responsible they are for their actions while soulless.

I usually see one of these two reasons listed as why people evaluate their actions and levels of responsibility differently:

#1: Spike is special. This is why he’s the “same” with and without a soul. He’s different than every other vampire. This is why he can love and why he should be held responsible for his actions.

#2: Angel is not Angelus. They are two totally super different people. It’s okay for Buffy to be with Angel post-Season 2 because he never really did anything wrong. It’s not Angel who didn’t love Buffy, Angelus didn’t. She should not be with Spike after Season 6 because heis responsible for any and all evil actions he committed prior to gaining his soul. Angel and Angelus are not the same person, Soulful-Spike and Soulless-Spike are.

Now, I disagree with both of these sentiments, which seem to all go to a larger argument that is approached in one of the two ways. That being:

Spike should be held responsible for his soulless actions, Angel should not.

This doesn’t work for me and I don’t believe it works toward a coherent mythology in the Buffyverse.

First off, I would like to address the first part of that argument: that Spike is special. I don’t think he is. At least, not in the way that I described above. The first place to look to disprove this is Harmony Kendall


http://demandingbillydolls.tumblr.com/post/110041355030/spike-and-angel-us-i-dont-judge-them-by

Just a taste of an interesting meta - I'd be interested in other opinions.

I haven't read all the meta (too long and too small!) or the other comments but what you posted it's enough to understand the topic and it's a very interesting one. I've seen a lot of this double standard and, weirdly, from a lot of Spike fans as well. Personally, I'm very persuaded that there is no difference between Angel, Spike and all other vampires. Except for the differences concerning their personalities, of course. They are all the same persona with or without the demon, with or without the soul. The demon and the soul change them and make them act differently but don't make them a different character.

So I think that both unsouled Angel and Spike shouldn't be held accountable for the bad things they did and both should be praised for the good things... Ok, unsouled Angel never did a good thing, but that's not the point 😀

 

[bespangeled]

I haven't read all the meta (too long and too small!) or the other comments but what you posted it's enough to understand the topic and it's a very interesting one. I've seen a lot of this double standard and, weirdly, from a lot of Spike fans as well. Personally, I'm very persuaded that there is no difference between Angel, Spike and all other vampires. Except for the differences concerning their personalities, of course. They are all the same persona with or without the demon, with or without the soul. The demon and the soul change them and make them act differently but don't make them a different character.

So I think that both unsouled Angel and Spike shouldn't be held accountable for the bad things they did and both should be praised for the good things... Ok, unsouled Angel never did a good thing, but that's not the point 😀

Yup!😀

Unsoulled Angel didn't do good things, but he had a lot of strengths that make souled Angel a very effective champion.

 

[jom]

Low blow, low blow. im seeing red right now 🙄

 

[bespangeled]

Why's it ironic? I know it's double standards. Of course its double standard. But also, you have to admit that America is different. Americans simply dont care. How many Britians have fear about showing their cultural heritage? How many Germans? etc etc. From my experience they feel guilty about their countries past actions or inactions. Not individually, but as a whole. Americans should feel some of that. Americans should feel guilt over the Indians, over slavery, over any of the numerous atrocities, but for the most part we dont. To the victor goes the spoils. That is the point you are making with the Spike jacket. And it's a valid point, from one perspective.

Don't judge all Americans by the media reports. In my life we went from Jim Crow to an African-American president. That took a lot of people who do believe in justice for all - and there are still a lot of people fighting the reactionaries. Our govt OYH is infested with idiots who refuse to believe in science at the moment....😡 

Low blow, low blow. im seeing red right now 🙄

Huh?

 

[jom]

Huh?

Nightlady made a funny, i countered it.

 

[white avenger]

Don't judge all Americans by the media reports. In my life we went from Jim Crow to an African-American president. That took a lot of people who do believe in justice for all - and there are still a lot of people fighting the reactionaries. Our govt OYH is infested with idiots who refuse to believe in science at the moment....😡 


Huh?

I will whole heartedly agree that our government is infested with idiots (most governments are.) but PLEEEEEEEEEEEEASE, let's not get started on Obama.

 

[bespangeled]

I will whole heartedly agree that our government is infested with idiots (most governments are.) but PLEEEEEEEEEEEEASE, let's not get started on Obama.

Sorry - no politics. But I was not attacking Obama. I just got wildly serious over a comment. Sorry.😳

 

[NightLady]

Low blow, low blow. im seeing red right now 🙄

How is the truth a low blow? 😛

Yup!😀

Unsoulled Angel didn't do good things, but he had a lot of strengths that make souled Angel a very effective champion.

Oh, I'm not denying that Angel became a champion, but I wouldn't say that the merit goes to his unsouled version's strengths... maybe it was more because of his weakness that he fights so much to become better

 

[bespangeled]

How is the truth a low blow? 😛



Oh, I'm not denying that Angel became a champion, but I wouldn't say that the merit goes to his unsouled version's strengths... maybe it was more because of his weakness that he fights so much to become better

No - I never meant the merit went to Angelus. I am only saying that Angel has some good tools from him. Like the 'I will dice you into small bits if you try that' look. Angelus may have invented that, but Angel can use it to very good effect. Angelus had a lot of different strengths that Angel uses or diverts - and uses for good purposes.

 

[jom]

Spike felt in love with BUffy while being evil and tried to be good for that love, something evil angel could never had done, but we also got to take into account the chip that helped him to behave himself and prevented him from doing god knows what evils.

 

[Firstina]

I've been thinking about the notion that everybody seems to forgive Angel for season 2 and not so willing to do the same for pre-souled Spike.
I'll try to explain why I feel that way.
If we cast away all soul-no-soul thing the situation is pretty simple. Angel(us) hurted Buffy. Spike hurted Buffy. Hell, when you inside the process it doesn't matter who it was - it is still painful. Yeah I can give them some slack because I never felt the way Buffy did but I am an outside viewer.

So if anybody - souled, half-souled, pre-souled, doesn't-matter-which-kind-of-souled - hurted my girl I want to see a response. So then Buffy beats the crap out of Angel(us), uses a freaking rocket launcher and then kills Angel with a sword and send him to hell - oh, yeah, I am satisfied. And for the record I like Angel a lot. But in this case I don't care - the damage is done to my leading lady so I can live with the situation where one of my favorite characters fights the other one. Afterwards I can express all my sympathy for Angel easily because a feel it like a resolved problem with a full closure.

With Spike not so much. I think It would be easier for me to forgive him if I had some sort of reaction from Buffy. Good God, girl - just shout at him, throw a fit, express at least something! Buy a granade to throw at him or a second rocket launcher for God sake! Don't do nothing. You are Buffy, you are my hero, you don't tolerate with such things - you fight them. I don't care if he has a soul now he still looks like the guy who hurted you - do something about it. You can forgive him later if you want to, but I just can't - because I don't see the solution of the problem. Hell, I don't even know how do you feel about your future relationship and sexual life. Sorry, that is just so sad to me.

 

[bespangeled]

The rocket launcher was for the judge - not Angel. In fact, at that point she wasn't ready to kill Angel (though the balls kick was nice!). Buffy also didn't beat the crap out of Angel - I don't recall any bruise or blood in that battle. And Buffy had to send Angel to hell in order to save the world that he had been trying to destroy. All good, and satisfying in a dramatic way but then what Angelus did was so much worse than what Spike did. The scene where Giles finds Jenny still makes me want to cry. Angel killed at least one of her friends - and we know he was killing people in town. Let's say he killed at least 20 people including at least one toddler ; Angel's reign of terror was far worse than anything Spike did in the entire show. He came back from hell and Buffy took care of him and forgave him.

Spike and Buffy had a very dysfunctional and violent relationship. She actually did beat him to a pulp, blew up his crypt, told him to move on and then got upset when he did. Then he attempted to rape her - which was a really vicious attack and a horrible betrayal. She kicked him into a wall, and he stopped. He went and punished himself by getting a soul.

To me this actually fits - Buffy and Angel were loving, and they ended up in violence.

But Buffy had already done violence with Spike - it was foreplay to them. When she found out he had a soul she sent him back to the basement of crazy. And ignored him except for when he might have some use. He was in the basement or gone for almost 1/3 of the season. That was the punishment most likely to gut Spike. He loved violence - fighting him was useless. But he hated being left alone even before the soul. So she did fight him - did the worst thing she could. She cut him out of her life, left him to rot, did not rescue him from his private hell.

Just like with Angel, she finally believed in him, and forgave him. I don't recall a single scene in season 7 where Spike touched Buffy without her explicit permission. He wasn't there to get back in her pants - he was there to make reparations.

That's my take on it, and I know it's not the same for you. I love Angel, and I love Spike - from the day they first met up to NFA. I see them as having an incredibly rich history. So if Buffy ends up with one of them, I'm okay with it. Buffy is human - she has a limited life span. I guarantee that when she dies, one of the vamps will be there to make sure the other one doesn't take a walk in the sun. What I love about Buffy is that she created both Spike and Angel - turned them both into heroes and champions.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I don't recall a single scene in season 7 where Spike touched Buffy without her explicit permission.

There were a few.. they seemed to involve him touching her arm and her winching as if she was hurt.