My Personal theory about why the slayer line became unstable!

[LadyLavinia]

Prove it.

Do you recall another Slayer being activated, following Buffy's death in "The Gift"? I don't. And Faith became a Slayer, following Kendra's death ONLY.

Why is it so hard for you to accept that Kendra was THE SLAYER during Season 2, and that Faith was THE SLAYER from Seasons 3-7 and not Buffy? And why did the Shadowmen called Buffy "the last guardian of the Hellmouth" and not The Slayer in "Get It Done"?

 

[nerd4hire]

Do you recall another Slayer being activated, following Buffy's death in "The Gift"? I don't. And Faith became a Slayer, following Kendra's death ONLY.

Why is it so hard for you to accept that Kendra was THE SLAYER during Season 2, and that Faith was THE SLAYER from Seasons 3-7 and not Buffy? And why did the Shadowmen called Buffy "the last guardian of the Hellmouth" and not The Slayer in "Get It Done"?

Oh well...here we go again. 🙂 Cool 😀

I'll tell you what, you seem to have forgotten how this "Only through Faith" debate goes, so I'll refresh your memory a bit. I'll show you the support for the OTF (only through Faith) theory, and the OA (opposing arguement goes). This will save time so we can get to the meat of the debate.

OTF: In Faith, Hope and Trick Cordelia suggests when Buffy died in Prophecy Girl the slayer line passed from Buffy into Kendra. When Kendra died the line passed into Faith. The agreement of the Scoobs with this is implicit by their silence.

OA: Everything Cordelia says is agreed with, however after Willow's resurrection spell in Bargaining things change. There are - as is often the the case in the Buffyverse - consequences to the magic.

Just as Cordelia suggests the line has changed in season 3, Dawn in Potential, suggests the line has changed again by going through Buffy now, in Season 7. Again the Scoobs are implicit in their agreement with this by their silence.

There is added support for this idea of Through Buffy Now, when first Buffy in Potential, and then the First Evil in Chosen also state the line now goes through Buffy.

Also this possibility becomes more palatable by answering the question created when Anya and Giles visit Beljoxa's eye - what is the "disruption in the slayer line?".

OTF: Marti Noxon stated the line operated as Cordelia described it, and could only pass to another slayer if Faith died.

OA: The comment was made in Season 3. Things changed. We know things changed for a fact, because at the end of Chosen the slayer line passes to multiple slayers, and not through the death of Faith. This suggests change of all sorts in the slayer line is possible.

OTF: Joss Whedon stated there could not be another slayer created by Buffy's death in The Gift, because the line continued to pass through Faith.

OA: This quote was also pre-season 6 when it is suggested everything changed. Again the possibility of change was proven by the events portrayed at the end of Chosen.

Also, and here my recollection is hazy, but I'm almost positive I heard Joss suggest in that Q and A, that this could all change in the future if the writers could think of a way to do it. I'll double-check that.

And to answer your questions. There is no new slayer called as a result of Buffy's death in the Gift. Joss Whedon said so. The slayer line is only altered, or as Beljoxa's eyes says "disrupted" after Bargaining.

As to why the Shadowmen refer to Buffy as the last guardian of the Hellmouth, my best guess would be it's because that's what they believe she is. She's also the Slayer. That's what everyone in Season 7 calls her, including Caleb who refers to her as "The one, the only, accept no substitutes Slayer".

Anyway that's how the basic support for the "Only through Faith" theory goes, and the opposing arguement to said theory. Hope that helps. 🙂

 

[Winifred]

I'm sorry to interrupt the conversation, but i would like to add my thoughts/on the slayer line becoming unstable!
The prophecy reads: 'One Slayer to every generation. When one slayer dies, the next one is called'...so from that, this is what my theory turned out like:
When Buffy died in season 1, Kendra was called as the new slayer. So when Xander revived Buffy it proved that two slayers could coexist.
When Kendra died, the new slayer was called - Faith and it had nothing to do with Buffy as she had already passed on her "essence" to Kendra.
When Buffy died again, and brought back by willow, it didn't stuff up the order of things because according to the prophecy, Buffy had already died, and Faith still held the slayer title, so if she died, another would be called.

OTF: Marti Noxon stated the line operated as Cordelia described it, and could only pass to another slayer if Faith died.

OA: The comment was made in Season 3. Things changed. We know things changed for a fact, because at the end of Chosen the slayer line passes to multiple slayers, and not through the death of Faith. This suggests change of all sorts in the slayer line is possible.

OTF: Joss Whedon stated there could not be another slayer created by Buffy's death in The Gift, because the line continued to pass through Faith.

OA: This quote was also pre-season 6 when it is suggested everything changed. Again the possibility of change was proven by the events portrayed at the end of Chosen.

This got me thinking about my theory, and now I believe my theory could be way off the mark. I'll explain. You say here that at the end of "Chosen" the slayer line passes to multiple slayers, and not through the death of Faith. That is true. So what happend in "The Gift" and thereafter? Could the fact that Buffy died again be the result of the change and the events that supported that change in "Chosen"? Then also, what does that make Faith? Or am I confusing myself now...eh...

I do apologise if it's completely off topic, but I see it relating somewhat to the "slayer line being unstable" topic. Oh and for what it's worth nerd4hire, I do agree somewhat with what you are saying, even though your theory has lost me a little, but that's probably just me and not your interpretation.

 

[nerd4hire]

So what happend in "The Gift" and thereafter? Could the fact that Buffy died again be the result of the change and the events that supported that change in "Chosen"?

I don't think so. In a post-Gift, pre-Bargaining interview, Joss Whedon says the line still passes through Faith at the time of the Gift.

The problem begins later, at the time of Bargaining when Willow recreates the original Buffy. That's why Beljoxa's eye suggests, (and I paraphrase) "the disruption in the slayer-line is not because Buffy died. It's because she lives."

The way I look at it "Only through Faith" is Canon until after Joss's last comment pre-bargaining stating OTF is still in affect at the time of Buffy's death in the Gift. After that though. There is no support I can think of for the Only through Faith idea, and tons of support for "through Buffy now". In my opinion everything is theoretical at that point, and therefore anything is possible. It's just a matter of deciding what makes the most sense to you, personally.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Oh well...here we go again. 🙂 Cool 😀

I'll tell you what, you seem to have forgotten how this "Only through Faith" debate goes, so I'll refresh your memory a bit. I'll show you the support for the OTF (only through Faith) theory, and the OA (opposing arguement goes). This will save time so we can get to the meat of the debate.

OTF: In Faith, Hope and Trick Cordelia suggests when Buffy died in Prophecy Girl the slayer line passed from Buffy into Kendra. When Kendra died the line passed into Faith. The agreement of the Scoobs with this is implicit by their silence.

OA: Everything Cordelia says is agreed with, however after Willow's resurrection spell in Bargaining things change. There are - as is often the the case in the Buffyverse - consequences to the magic.

Just as Cordelia suggests the line has changed in season 3, Dawn in Potential, suggests the line has changed again by going through Buffy now, in Season 7. Again the Scoobs are implicit in their agreement with this by their silence.

There is added support for this idea of Through Buffy Now, when first Buffy in Potential, and then the First Evil in Chosen also state the line now goes through Buffy.

Also this possibility becomes more palatable by answering the question created when Anya and Giles visit Beljoxa's eye - what is the "disruption in the slayer line?".

OTF: Marti Noxon stated the line operated as Cordelia described it, and could only pass to another slayer if Faith died.

OA: The comment was made in Season 3. Things changed. We know things changed for a fact, because at the end of Chosen the slayer line passes to multiple slayers, and not through the death of Faith. This suggests change of all sorts in the slayer line is possible.

OTF: Joss Whedon stated there could not be another slayer created by Buffy's death in The Gift, because the line continued to pass through Faith.

OA: This quote was also pre-season 6 when it is suggested everything changed. Again the possibility of change was proven by the events portrayed at the end of Chosen.

Also, and here my recollection is hazy, but I'm almost positive I heard Joss suggest in that Q and A, that this could all change in the future if the writers could think of a way to do it. I'll double-check that.

And to answer your questions. There is no new slayer called as a result of Buffy's death in the Gift. Joss Whedon said so. The slayer line is only altered, or as Beljoxa's eyes says "disrupted" after Bargaining.

As to why the Shadowmen refer to Buffy as the last guardian of the Hellmouth, my best guess would be it's because that's what they believe she is. She's also the Slayer. That's what everyone in Season 7 calls her, including Caleb who refers to her as "The one, the only, accept no substitutes Slayer".

Anyway that's how the basic support for the "Only through Faith" theory goes, and the opposing arguement to said theory. Hope that helps. 🙂

The only change I can recall from Buffy's second resurrection was that Spike's chip no longer protected her from any attack by him. That's it. If things had changed from the second resurrection, why wasn't a second Slayer called, following Buffy's death in "The Gift"? Why did the Shadowmen called her "the Last Guardian of the Hellmouth" and not "The Slayer"? Isn't it also possible that Giles and Anya had misinterpreted the words of the Bejorxa Eye? And why would the Shadowmen's spell calling for one Slayer at a time, be judged as the correct way for the Slayer line to operate?

 

[Allycat]

The only change I can recall from Buffy's second resurrection was that Spike's chip no longer protected her from any attack by him.

N4H explained that the way Buffy was ressurected caused her to be reinserted into the Slayerline. Check one of his posts above.

If things had changed from the second resurrection, why wasn't a second Slayer called, following Buffy's death in "The Gift"?

Because her Gift-death preceded her second resurrection 😛

Why did the Shadowmen called her "the Last Guardian of the Hellmouth" and not "The Slayer"?

Because according to their original Slayer-pattern, Faith was the slayer... Buffy however the leader of the gang, so effectively guardian of the hellmouth. Either that or they were just being poetic.

sn't it also possible that Giles and Anya had misinterpreted the words of the Bejorxa Eye?

That's really a "what if"-scenario. So, I counter-argue, what if Cookie-monster from Sesame Street was really the First Evil and he wanted to make sure Buffy finally got done baking, so he could eat her.

And why would the Shadowmen's spell calling for one Slayer at a time, be judged as the correct way for the Slayer line to operate?

Because this is the way in which the system of the Slayer was originally conceived.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Why did the Shadowmen called her "the Last Guardian of the Hellmouth" and not "The Slayer"?

I think everyone is really looking to much into that one. We are assuming that every Slayer is a Guardian of the Hellmouth...Wrong Buffy is the Guardian of the Hellmouth because she lives on it, Faith was during season 3 then she left and no longer guarded the Hellmouth. Also Slayers are called all over the World and as far as we know there is only two Hellmouths one in Sunnydale and One in Cleveland, its only when a Slayer is Guarding the Hellmouth that they are a guardian of the hellmouth, other wise they are just a Slayer doing there job.

 

[Allycat]

We only know about two Hellmouths, but there may be plenty more... perhaps Slayers are always called near a Hellmouth? I think that up untill Chosen, we were all under the assumption that there was only one Hellmouth, but now that we know that's not true, we can't make any assesments about what number there are.


Furthermore, Giles implies that Slayers act as guardians of the Hellmouth all the time in Bring on the Night:

GILES
That's what it is. It has eternities to act, endless resources. (stands) How to defeat it"”I-I"” (sighs) honestly I don't know. But we have to find a way. If the slayer line is eliminated, then the hell mouth has no guardian. The balance is destroyed. (walks up to Buffy) I'm afraid it falls to you, Buffy. Sorry. I mean, we'll do what we can, but you're the only one who has the strength to protect these girls"”and the world"”against what's coming.

However, this particular discussion is sidetracking us a bit, it doesn't really have a lot to do with the instable slayer-line anymore, does it?!

 

[drtroy]

I'm new to the forum what is exactly the Fray series?and season 9?

 

[StuckinTraffic]

So, I counter-argue, what if Cookie-monster from Sesame Street was really the First Evil and he wanted to make sure Buffy finally got done baking, so he could eat her.

LMAO! Not laughing at you, Ally, I'm laughing with you!

drtroy, Fray refers to the series of comics written by Joss. They are set in the future and the Slayer's name is Fray. Season 9 is Allycat's fan fic, currently on virtual Season 9, it picks up at the end of Season 7.

 

[drtroy]

So, I counter-argue, what if Cookie-monster from Sesame Street was really the First Evil and he wanted to make sure Buffy finally got done baking, so he could eat her.


haha

 

[nerd4hire]

There's what I think is a decent reference thread on Fray, and her place in the Buffyverse here -

https://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=13348

 

[LadyLavinia]

I think everyone is really looking to much into that one. We are assuming that every Slayer is a Guardian of the Hellmouth...Wrong Buffy is the Guardian of the Hellmouth because she lives on it, Faith was during season 3 then she left and no longer guarded the Hellmouth. Also Slayers are called all over the World and as far as we know there is only two Hellmouths one in Sunnydale and One in Cleveland, its only when a Slayer is Guarding the Hellmouth that they are a guardian of the hellmouth, other wise they are just a Slayer doing there job.

There might be more Hellmouths, but the show has never established that. Still, I don't think that one should assume there were only two of them. After all, only Slayers who live near a certain hellmouth were not the only ones who were called. Buffy was living in L.A., when she first became a Slayer.

Maybe the Shadowmen called Buffy "Guardian of the Hellmouth", because the Slayer line no longer ran through her.

And why do we have to take Giles and Anya's assumption at heart that the presence of more than one Slayer meant that the Slayer line was unstable?

Because this is the way in which the system of the Slayer was originally conceived.

Just because the Slayer line was originally conceived that way, did not make it the only way . . . or the right way for the Slayer line to operate. Nothing is certain.

 

[Slayerboy]

I was under the impression that Buffy's death wouldnot have had any effect on the Slayer line at all. Faith was the active Slayer and only upon her death would a new Slayer be called forth.

On the whole instability-of-the-Slayer-line thing, I think if anything shook it up, it was the leap to the dark side made by Faith. We all know that Slayers are supposed to be champions of good and if one goes over to the dark side of the force, surely that is gonna have some kind of effect.

Just my view, what do you guys think?

 

[LadyLavinia]

I was under the impression that Buffy's death wouldnot have had any effect on the Slayer line at all. Faith was the active Slayer and only upon her death would a new Slayer be called forth.

On the whole instability-of-the-Slayer-line thing, I think if anything shook it up, it was the leap to the dark side made by Faith. We all know that Slayers are supposed to be champions of good and if one goes over to the dark side of the force, surely that is gonna have some kind of effect.

Just my view, what do you guys think?

I don't think that Faith's leap into "the dark side" had destabilize the Slayer line.

How can one expect all the Slayers to be perfectly good? They're human beings, not saints. They have emotional problems like everyone else. And I don't think that their personal morality had any mystical effect on the Slayer line.

 

[nerd4hire]

Maybe the Shadowmen called Buffy "Guardian of the Hellmouth", because the Slayer line no longer ran through her.

Isn't that kind of a leap in logic though? I mean, how do you get from the one to the other? Couldn't you be both a slayer, and a guardian of the Hellmouth. Weren't the Shadowmen concerned with slayers? Why were they waiting in limbo for 10,000 years, if not for The Slayer.

And why do we have to take Giles and Anya's assumption at heart that the presence of more than one Slayer meant that the Slayer line was unstable?

You don't have to, but you can choose to. I choose to, because I read an interview where Joss Whedon was saying something like "Season 7 is didactic in it's simplicity". To me that means 'it is what is'. If they say it, believe it.

Edit:

Actually Anya doesn't say it's "more than one slayer" that causes the disruption. She says it's the Magic spell done by her and the Scoobs to resurrect Buffy that creates the disruption.

Just because the Slayer line was originally conceived that way, did not make it the only way . . . or the right way for the Slayer line to operate. Nothing is certain.

True. Like for example, it's possible the slayer line no longer passes through Faith in Season 7. It's possible it passes through Buffy again. After all they do say it does on 3 separate occassions.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Isn't that kind of a leap in logic though? I mean, how do you get from the one to the other? Couldn't you be both a slayer, and a guardian of the Hellmouth. Weren't the Shadowmen concerned with slayers? Why were they waiting in limbo for 10,000 years, if not for The Slayer.



You don't have to, but you can choose to. I choose to, because I read an interview where Joss Whedon was saying something like "Season 7 is didactic in it's simplicity". To me that means 'it is what is'. If they say it, believe it.

Edit:

Actually Anya doesn't say it's "more than one slayer" that causes the disruption. She says it's the Magic spell done by her and the Scoobs to resurrect Buffy that creates the disruption.




True. Like for example, it's possible the slayer line no longer passes through Faith in Season 7. It's possible it passes through Buffy again. After all they do say it does on 3 separate occassions.

You said that my theory might be nothing more than a leap in logic. Couldn't one say the same about your theory that the Slayer line had returned to Buffy by Season 7?

Oh by the way, was Anya's theory about the early S6 resurrection spell proven to be correct?

 

[Allycat]

Maybe the Shadowmen called Buffy "Guardian of the Hellmouth", because the Slayer line no longer ran through her.

Isn't that kind of a leap in logic though? I mean, how do you get from the one to the other? Couldn't you be both a slayer, and a guardian of the Hellmouth. Weren't the Shadowmen concerned with slayers? Why were they waiting in limbo for 10,000 years, if not for The Slayer.

I think that what LadyLavina means here is that because the Slayer-line no longer runs through Buffy, the Shadowmen do not wish to caller her Slayer any longer. She does still posses the powers and is still a hero for the side of good. The Shadowmen chose the title "Guard of the Hellmouth" to describe her function as a hero, which in their eyes, was not Slayer anymore.

And why do we have to take Giles and Anya's assumption at heart that the presence of more than one Slayer meant that the Slayer line was unstable?

You don't have to, but you can choose to. I choose to, because I read an interview where Joss Whedon was saying something like "Season 7 is didactic in it's simplicity". To me that means 'it is what is'. If they say it, believe it.

I think the number and persistence of threads like this one, exploring the plot (and plotholes) of season 7 serves as proof that it is not simple. If it really was that simple, wouldn't more people "understand" it? Given how we usually do agree upon what the plot for the other seasons is, this plot has to be of a significantly different complexity level.

 

[nerd4hire]

You said that my theory might be nothing more than a leap in logic. Couldn't one say the same about your theory that the Slayer line had returned to Buffy by Season 7?

No, no, no, you misunderstand. I'm not saying your theory is a leap in logic. To be honest, I don't know what your theory is.

I'm saying if you simply say Buffy is the guardian of the hellmouth, therefore she couldn't be The Slayer, it's a leap in logic to say that, because it's possible to be both guardian and slayer.

Now the way Alleycat explains it, is more reasonable. If the Shadowmen referred to Buffy consistently as the "Guardian of the Hellmouth", and not as "Slayer" then yes, you'd have to wonder about that. I'm not sure they do that though. I only remember one little bit where they tell Buffy she's the "last guardian of the Hellmouth". The rest is all slayer stuff. In fact doesn't the main shadowman say something like, "The last slayer wasn't so talkative"?

Oh by the way, was Anya's theory about the early S6 resurrection spell proven to be correct?

Who knows. Again it's like Alleycat says. This stuff is open-ended, and complex. It's possible to see Anya's statement as being the correct assessment of what Beljoxa's eye says, and create a well reasoned explanation of what's really going on in Season 7 from that. I've also heard other explanations that work for other people in which they ignore Anya's explanation. More power to em. In my opinion it's viewer's call.

 

[Allycat]

...doesn't the main shadowman say something like, "The last slayer wasn't so talkative"?

I think he was refering to the previous Slayer that visited them. Presumably, Nikki Wood.

Who knows. Again it's like Alleycat says. This stuff is open-ended, and complex. It's possible to see Anya's statement as being the correct assessment of what Beljoxa's eye says, and create a well reasoned explanation of what's really going on in Season 7 from that. I've also heard other explanations that work for other people in which they ignore Anya's explanation. More power to em. In my opinion it's viewer's call.

Please don't take this as an insult, but if this is true, why are you here defending your own theory. I get what you're saying and I agree with it. It does make me think we're rather silly for us to discuss it even then.


PS: It's Allycat, without the extra "e" 😉