Apologies to Topher - we've been talking about this. I'm putting in our last letter because it's really on topic.
Originally Posted by thetopher
I guess if Angel and Cordelia had got to declare their love it could've been epic, or it could've been Buffy/Riley all over again- its really just a matter of perspective.
A giant what-if, but I still don't think it was the reason that the relationship was terminated, the reason was...drama/angst!. Like pretty much anything else in the Jossverse, hardly anybody gets a happy relationship/ending.
Yeah, once they "get married" there is only one way to go - torture and angst. And I just don't have it in me to watch more Angel angsting over a woman. But I still like them - like their dynamic. At least they didn't get ruined with over exposure.
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I always forget Nina to be honest.
To me the two big passions in Angel's life were Buffy and Darla, both set him on his path and shaped him, somewhat, into who he is now.
There are other relationships that matter of course (Doyle, Cordelia, Faith, Connor) and all those have shaped Angel in some way, but if we're taking passion then its thoes two little blonde girls that I tend to think of.
Darla and Buffy - yes. A mirror of good and evil. His passion with Darla was damn epic, and he couldn't resist her. Buffy was a different kind of passion. Darla killed him, and Buffy brought him back to life. She was Spike's lodestone too. I tend to think she didn't love him, at least not the way he wanted. But I read somewhere - Buffy f*cked the soul out of Angel and then f*cked one into Spike. She was the central figure of who they both are now.
I'd add in a small blonde manpire. Look at it this way - Angel staked Darla, staked Penn, and set fire to Darla and Dru. He protected Spike on the sub, during Lover's Walk he put himself between Spike and Buffy's stake-and I'm sure Angel could have let Spike get staked and found Willow etc if he wanted. Hell, he even took a stake for him when Illyria killed them all. Look at the two of them after "Why We Fight" staring out the window. Deep link there.
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I know that JM thought that they were gonna go the romantic route with him and Fred, but I think it was just to give Spike a solid connection outside of Angel and to have him be as affected/invested as the rest of the gang when Fred starts to die.
For my money Fred/Wesley was always meant to be. (Spike/Illyria on the other hand..)
Ick - I really think fanfic when I play with pairings. I mean I can believe it during the story but wouldn't want it in the show. I came up with Fred because she was the last woman alive in the group. No - Spike/Fred would have no spark. But I ship Lilah/Wesley all the way. Wesley/Fred was sweet and romantic, and tragic. But Wesley and Lilah were delicious. They really enjoyed the challenge of each other, and the sex looked the best in the entire verse. They were interesting and hot - one of the most intriguing match-ups.
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I know a lot of people have a big problem with Angel's portrayal when he shows up in 'Chosen', just after losing Cordy and his son. I look at it this way; Angel going to see Buffy was partly love, but also partly nostalgia, (and also delivering the amulet/helping.) instead of focussing on all his own crap life he could relax and rebond with his old flame (which is what makes his petulant jealously about Spike so realistic/funny.) and why I don't think he wants to dump all his problems on Buffy in the middle of an apocalypse- that's just being needy- also I don't think anybody even knows about Conner (because of the spell), but I guess he could've mentioned Cordelia to her. (Just to see Buffy get jealous/incredulous in turn) I sure hope Buffy finds out that Angel has had other love interests besides her.
That feels like good rationalizations to me. Not the foundation of a good relationship. Kinda like they are in love as long as they are apart - but honesty and vulnerability go out the window when they are together. I would prefer something closer to the Buffy/Angel in the cemetery after Joyce died. I always figured that Angel was half suicidal when he reached Sunnydale but that is a different thread.
The whole staying apart thing actually blows a hole in the ship - what will happen in a few years that will make a relationship safe? Shanshu? I think they should have had more connection - not avoided it. Of course, it's in the cracks like this where stories are born.
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I always thought that Angel/Doyle and Angel/Lindsey are fun ships. (I tend to go where the chemistry leads ...) and I agree that Angelus/Spike is definitly canon, don't know if Angel thinks about Spike that way though. It's a nice thought
Angelus and Spike screwed each other in a whole lot of ways - I doubt there was ever romance but I'm sure there was sex, and more than one time. (Btw - Spike's line is "that one...." which could be any amount of time in Spike speak.) Also - I kinda doubt Spike sees shagging as all that intimate. Try it on for size "Harmony and I were intimate." - nah. Friendly, caring and intimate sex was probably rare - at least until they got their souls and probably after.
Let me put it this way - if Angel and Buffy spent 30 years together, Spike would be there when she died to make sure Angel didn't take an afternoon stroll. That is love. Under all the snark and complaining, there is a bond there. The humans are mayfly - in some ways they only have each other.
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I tend to see Angel/Spike like Buffy/Faith, two characters who are connected/understand each other on a level nobody else can match- they are the only two in their particular situation, and they really tend to fizz off each other when their onscreen together, leading to some truly memorable scenes.
Yeah - Buffy/Faith - not my cup of tea but I can really see it. Even once the potentials are activated, Buffy and Faith share a history, and some definite chemistry!
We are way off topic - but this is fun. How do you get a thread split here? I'd love to do one on fanfic ships. See what different pairs people are open to.
