Riley and Buffy - Where does the blame lie?

[fly on the wall]

It's also ridiculous that he would tell a big fat lie when he's trying to salvage a relationship. And then why should we believe anyone in the Buffyverse, for that matter?

It's ridiculous that he would lie to salvage his relationship? Really? Hm.
As far as who we should believe, we pick and choose who we believe in everything that we watch.

He gave a mere glance? Really?! You don't think that would be normal for ANY partner to do under these circumstances (i.e. it was sexually suggestive)? And didn't Angel admit to being jealous of Xander? Then he must be the most insecure person in the entire 'verse...

It wasn't just a mere glance. It was a LOADED glance. I wish I had the screenshot.
I just looked up the transcript to this episode. I wrote a whole lot thing about this scene awhile ago but I have no idea where it went. Anyways, Buffy WASN'T shy about saying Dracula was sexy in front of Riley. She also openly, well, GUSHED about him in front of Riley. Near the beginning of the episode:

Buffy: I told you he'd heard of me, right? I mean, can you believe that? Count Famous heard of me.
Riley: I couldn't believe it the first twenty times you told us, but it's starting to sink in now.
Buffy: I'm sorry. Am I repeat-o-girl? I was just ... blown away.
Riley: It's not that surprising that he's heard of you, Buffy. You are the slayer.
Buffy: I guess. Just - the way he said it, you know, I mean, he made it sound so...
Willow: Sexy? I bet he made it sound sexy.
Buffy: Kinda. He of the dark penetrating eyes and lilty accent.

What she held back was admitting any sort of connection to Dracula. Not a sexual connection (although that was certainly the metaphor used) but a dark, animalistic one. Dracula calls her kindred. He says she has a darkness to rival his own. This is the scene that I mentioned before:

Willow: OK. Dracula's modus operandi is different from other vampires. He will kill just to feed, but he'd rather have a connection with his victims. And he has all of these mental powers to draw them in. He can read and control minds... appear in dreams...
Buffy: (distracted) Uh huh.
Willow: Makes sense. That stare ... he just kinda ... looked right through
you. Didn't you feel it, Buffy?
(Riley looks at Buffy.)
Buffy: (pause) No. (gets up) No, I didn't.

THIS is what intimidates Riley, the darkness in her, this is why Spike uses this argument to really kick him where it hurts, "she needs a little monster in her man." So yes, it makes sense that Buffy, knowing this in the first episode of season 5, would try to hide ALL her darkness from him. Including depression, fear, anxiety, etc.

She didn't know him all that well at this point - if I'm not mistaken this is in season 4. Certainly not well enough to detect any insecurity.

But she knew him well enough in season 4 to lie about Angel. Why would she do that, if she didn't fear his reaction?

But a few posts back you said Buffy didn't have to open up in the first place: So which is it? Or is Riley such a bad boyfriend that he makes it ok to use conflicting arguments?

I don't see how those posts are contradictory? Yes - keeping to herself is typically how Buffy deals with things. Yes - part of the reason she held back about certain, non-my-mother-might-be-dying details about herself is because of Riley's insecurity. And yes - I don't see how an honest relationship between the two of them could have worked.

Then why don't you post some? Baseless speculation can only lead you so fa- well, nowhere.

How is my interpretation of their relationship any more "baseless" than anyone else's? Especially considering that I've posted plenty of evidence for why I feel the way I do?

 

[Abby27]

The Buffy/Riley relationship is always a fun debate! I went with female siding with Riley: I think Riley from the get-go loved Buffy and adored her strength. But with time, he saw just how strong she was, and how much she didn't need him emotionally or physically; and that drained him. With Riley, I think the only reason he resented her being so strong was because it caused her to not need him. Riley did love her and her strength, but he hated how she couldn't cry in front of him, or let her walls down. He had a problem with her being so strong and guarded with him, not for being strong in general. He wanted intimacy with her, to see the parts of herself that were just the human 19 year old girl she was, but she didn't I have no doubt that if Buffy was more open with him and let Riley get to that place she had let Angel, Riley wouldn't have built up so much resentment towards her. Now, Riley still gets blame for going to the vampire-whores, but I agree with Xander's reaction to Riley's ultimatum, "So what?" Riley was just trying to salvage their relationship, and if he couldn't, there was no point not to take the awesome job.

But all of this really can be chalked up to the fact the Buffy was so crushed by her break-up with Angel and it definitely created a lot of barriers between her and Riley. Riley was good for Buffy: good college boyfriend that helped her grow, but I definitely saw Riley and her as more of a transition relationship (not necessarily a rebound, as she did that with Parker) between the passionate, quick building love she and Angel shared to what it is like to have a more normal functioning and adult relationship.

 

[Kana]

Because denying it outright would have been ridiculous, since he had clearly shown it was an issue since his very first discussion with Buffy about her achievements as a Slayer.

But admitted it was an issue is Riley being honest here. Why do you choose to believe that he was lying about it not being the main issue. Xander and even Spike could perceive how Buffy was shutting him out.

She showed time and time again that she was well aware of his insecurity. The first example that comes to mind is in "Buffy vs. Dracula." During the group discussion about Dracula and his irresistible thrall, Willow turns to Buffy and asks her if she sensed it. In that moment, Riley turns to Buffy too. Buffy glances at him, then back at Willow, and lies. She knew he was insecure about himself, about the fact that he wasn't "dark" and couldn't enthrall her or protect her...and so Buffy lied to protect him.

As it's been said, I think that normal. Few people want to say to their partner that they are attracted to anyone else in anyway. In short it's not enough to say that she was aware at this point that Riey was specifically insecure about Buffy's attraction to dark characters.

She also held back telling him about Angel because of his insecurity. I just don't think it's as simple as she was shutting him out for the hell of it. She was shutting him out because of how she knew he would react if she let him in. So maybe it was partly self-preservation, but what's so wrong with that? They were flat-out wrong for each other, and I don't see how Buffy could have opened up and been completely honest with them. The only time their relationship worked well is when they didn't know who the other one was

It depends on what aspect of their relationship you're talking about but in general, a) Buffy had a hard time opening about what happened with Angel in general, but also because at the time when she was telling him about Angel Riley was just being introduced to moral ambiguity. Riley didn't like the idea of Wilow dating a 'dangerous guy' like Oz how would he have felt if he knew his girlfriend dated a vampire prone to turning evil.

I don't think that Riley and Buffy were flat out wrong for each other, no more than Spike or Angel. All of her relationships have had heartbreak and pain, she was willing to try and make it work with him.

But Riley never displayed behavior that wasn't insecure.

I don't understand how this relates to what I was saying. It doesn't contradict that Buffy's behaviour didn't make him feel this way. I'm not getting at Buffy I'm just saying that her behaviour had something to do with it.

 

[Abby27]

Right, I like what you said about moral ambiguity, I think it's obvious that Riley was very black and white when he met Buffy: get orders, bring in HST, be done with it. But through Buffy, he had to learn to be ok with letting some thing go in certain circumstances (Spike being held at Giles', for instance). So I agree, Buffy knew that if Riley thought Oz was a bad dude, he would have been livid to hear that Buffy had sex with a vampire which caused him to lose his soul and kill people. I think this is where the issue lies: Riley almost resented Buffy for not being more open and honest, but Buffy felt as though she could never really be open and honest the way Riley wanted because she knew how'd he react. I think this is a situation a lot of couples face (fictional or otherwise), the deciding factor is when the truth comes to light, can the couple deal? And maybe if Buffy had made it to that helicopter in time, they could've, but until they were able to reconcile with Buffy's past and Riley's resentment, it never would have worked in the long run. And I don't think Riley and Buffy were ever meant to be together forever, as I said before, I think it was built to be a teaching tool for both of them.

But with that personally, I still "side" with Riley. Only because Buffy shouldn't have lied or decided to permanently not tell Riley about Angel if it was such a big deal and something that still affected her life. I'm not saying Riley shouldn't have taken a chill pill and be more understanding, for sure. But in my eyes, Riley's potential reaction didn't give Buffy the right to hold back so much. As hard as it was, she should have been more open and raw with him, and if he reacted as badly as we think he might have, then that's his decision and not her fault.

 

[SlayerFae]

I'm a girl, and I side with Buffy... NOT because I'm a girl though. Buffy was going through a LOT of things in season 5. Her sister and keeping the secret about who Dawn really was, her mother's illness, getting staked by a vamp and the realization that she isn't infallible or immortal.

I really don't believe that Buffy was in the right mindset anymore to BE in a relationship at that point, but the fact of the matter is that she WAS in a relationship. No one wants to end a relationship and cause the other pain, and I do think Buffy still truly loved him, so she stuck it out. Riley on the other hand, handled things very poorly. He took Buffy's depression and tried to turn it around and make it all about poor him. "Oh she's not telling me things now, oh she's not paying attention to me, and boo hoo, she'd rather fight vampires than spend time with me." So suddenly that makes it okay for him to get suckjobs from vamp sluts? And his excuse was that he was trying to understand Buffy better by that?! What a damn moron.

Now granted, I was okay with Riley in season 4... most of the time (still gotta say I loved watching Angel kick his ass in The Yoko Factor), but season 5 Riley was more selfish and whiny, IMO than Dawn was.

 

[LadyLavinia]

But it wasn't about him missing his strength. It was about how now, Buffy immensely surpassed him in strength. And just because Riley claimed that wasn't the main problem, doesn't mean that it's true. I can hardly see him admitting, "Oh, yes, it really really bothers me that you're stronger than me." Perhaps the disconnect he felt was actually in part a result of having nothing in common with Buffy anymore. And I'd argue that part of the reason that Buffy held back from confiding in him was because she perceived him as insecure. I don't think Riley himself had much confidence in his ability to support Buffy. He wanted to, sure, but I think part of him was always wondering, "Am I strong enough for this? Am I strong enough for her?" and I don't think it's unreasonable to assume Buffy sensed this and so tried to protect him by holding back. I say this because the only other two men we see Buffy bare herself to emotionally are Angel and Spike, who she clearly perceived as strong and (mostly) secure. Of course, it's difficult to say that she would have been open with either of them during this period of her life because we've never seen her go through something like the death of her mother, the appearance of Dawn, etc etc with either of them.

It's not Riley who was being sexist. I believe that it is the fans who want to paint him as some macho sexist, because: a) they want to dump all of the blame of the breakup on him; and b) it's easier to paint him as a sexist than admit that Buffy's treatment of him following "Out of Sight" (treating him as fine china and emotionally distancing herself from him) had contributed to their breakup. Riley was guilty of failing to communicate with Buffy and allowing her past relationship with Angel to feed his insecurities. However, Buffy has always been stronger than Riley . . . since the beginning. He decided to wait until mid Season 5 to develop sexism over Buffy's strengths?

I'm a girl, and I side with Buffy... NOT because I'm a girl though. Buffy was going through a LOT of things in season 5. Her sister and keeping the secret about who Dawn really was, her mother's illness, getting staked by a vamp and the realization that she isn't infallible or immortal.

I really don't believe that Buffy was in the right mindset anymore to BE in a relationship at that point, but the fact of the matter is that she WAS in a relationship. No one wants to end a relationship and cause the other pain, and I do think Buffy still truly loved him, so she stuck it out. Riley on the other hand, handled things very poorly. He took Buffy's depression and tried to turn it around and make it all about poor him. "Oh she's not telling me things now, oh she's not paying attention to me, and boo hoo, she'd rather fight vampires than spend time with me." So suddenly that makes it okay for him to get suckjobs from vamp sluts? And his excuse was that he was trying to understand Buffy better by that?! What a damn moron.

Now granted, I was okay with Riley in season 4... most of the time (still gotta say I loved watching Angel kick his ass in The Yoko Factor), but season 5 Riley was more selfish and whiny, IMO than Dawn was.

It sounds like you're siding with Buffy, simply because she was a female and the series' main character.

 

[caitaintdead]

Okay, I'm not going to read through all 8 pages, I'm just gunna jump right in here.

I'm female, and I side with Riley here. This doesn't mean what I think was okay, it was definitely not okay. Riley had every right to feel what he was feeling though, and I have to say that if my boyfriend/girlfriend was clearly not in love with me then yes I would want to give them an ultimatum to find out for certain.

So yes. I can absolutely see where Riley is coming from, as I have always been the person that has been unsure of myself, not the person stringing a partner along.

 

[fly on the wall]

It's not Riley who was being sexist. I believe that it is the fans who want to paint him as some macho sexist, because: a) they want to dump all of the blame of the breakup on him; and b) it's easier to paint him as a sexist than admit that Buffy's treatment of him following "Out of Sight" (treating him as fine china and emotionally distancing herself from him) had contributed to their breakup. Riley was guilty of failing to communicate with Buffy and allowing her past relationship with Angel to feed his insecurities. However, Buffy has always been stronger than Riley . . . since the beginning. He decided to wait until mid Season 5 to develop sexism over Buffy's strengths?

Buffy has always been stronger than him, but the distance between their strengths grew significantly as he grew weaker at the end of S4. Before, they could go toe-to-toe and Buffy would only hold back a little. Now, if they were to fight, Buffy would kick his ass 100%. He's not sexist because I want to blame the breakup on him and he's not sexist because I think Buffy treated him well...he's sexist because as he got weaker physically and Buffy grew stronger physically, he bugged out. I don't see how that's NOT sexist, especially considering what an "old fashioned" dude Riley was (gag).

Furthermore, her strength HAD bothered him from the very beginning. Remember when he found out she was Slayer and she told him how many demons she's killed? He reacted insecurely even way back then.

 

[thunderhawk86]

I'm a male, and I think Buffy is the most at fault. However, I think that Dawn is the downfall of this relationship. If the key had been inanimate then Buffy wouldn't have to hold everything in and subsequently push Riley away. Buffy could have taken care of Joyce without having to keep up appearances/ protect Dawn. Had Dawn not come and Joyce not gotten sick (which I think was due to memory manipulation), I think they could have made it work for a while longer. But with everything going on Buffy thought she needed to be the slayer at work and at home and as a result pushed Riley away.

Yes Riley was wrong in going to the vampires and yes he was wrong for not talking to Buffy. But he did open up to Xander a little bit about how he felt. After Dawn came Buffy treated him as the rebound guy, Mr. Dependable. She didn't realize until it was to late that he was more than a rebound guy.

So in summary: Dawn's creation led to the downfall of the 'ship. With Dawn around Buffy had to be Super Slayer in all aspects of her life and we all know that bad things happen when she hides things from people.

 

[zobothehobo]

I'm a male, and I think Buffy is the most at fault. However, I think that Dawn is the downfall of this relationship. If the key had been inanimate then Buffy wouldn't have to hold everything in and subsequently push Riley away. Buffy could have taken care of Joyce without having to keep up appearances/ protect Dawn. Had Dawn not come and Joyce not gotten sick (which I think was due to memory manipulation), I think they could have made it work for a while longer. But with everything going on Buffy thought she needed to be the slayer at work and at home and as a result pushed Riley away.

Yes Riley was wrong in going to the vampires and yes he was wrong for not talking to Buffy. But he did open up to Xander a little bit about how he felt. After Dawn came Buffy treated him as the rebound guy, Mr. Dependable. She didn't realize until it was to late that he was more than a rebound guy.

So in summary: Dawn's creation led to the downfall of the 'ship. With Dawn around Buffy had to be Super Slayer in all aspects of her life and we all know that bad things happen when she hides things from people.

Joyce getting sick had nothing to do with the fake memories. If it did, everyone else would have gotten sick too.

 

[thunderhawk86]

True, it's never stated that the memory formations caused the tumor. However, Joyce, Buffy and her father would be the ones most affected by this. I think forcing that amount of memories into Joyce would have some ill effect with the kind of mother that she is. In Angel it takes Cyvus Vail and a bunch of powerful sorcerers to do what three monks did.

Has Whedon said somewhere that Dawn's creation had nothing to do with it? It's just a theory I've always had since in the Buffyverse magic usage that large tends to have drawbacks.

 

[Taaroko]

True, it's never stated that the memory formations caused the tumor. However, Joyce, Buffy and her father would be the ones most affected by this. I think forcing that amount of memories into Joyce would have some ill effect with the kind of mother that she is. In Angel it takes Cyvus Vail and a bunch of powerful sorcerers to do what three monks did.

Has Whedon said somewhere that Dawn's creation had nothing to do with it? It's just a theory I've always had since in the Buffyverse magic usage that large tends to have drawbacks.

I agree that it's possible the memories of Dawn are what caused Joyce's tumor. She showed no signs of illness prior to season five (though, okay, randomly dropping that plate in "Surprise" was a little odd). And I don't think that just because the memories had no ill effects on anyone else, it automatically means that they didn't have ill effects on Joyce. Perhaps the likelihood of her getting a tumor was always very high, and then the fake memories were the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

[GrrArghx]

I agree that it's possible the memories of Dawn are what caused Joyce's tumor. She showed no signs of illness prior to season five (though, okay, randomly dropping that plate in "Surprise" was a little odd). And I don't think that just because the memories had no ill effects on anyone else, it automatically means that they didn't have ill effects on Joyce. Perhaps the likelihood of her getting a tumor was always very high, and then the fake memories were the straw that broke the camel's back.

I don't know, that whole theory always left a bad taste in my mouth. I feel the show pushed it pretty hard that Joyce's death was not of supernatural means at all. If the fake memories caused her tumor, then that's treading that line pretty thin, I think.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Buffy has always been stronger than him, but the distance between their strengths grew significantly as he grew weaker at the end of S4. Before, they could go toe-to-toe and Buffy would only hold back a little. Now, if they were to fight, Buffy would kick his ass 100%. He's not sexist because I want to blame the breakup on him and he's not sexist because I think Buffy treated him well...he's sexist because as he got weaker physically and Buffy grew stronger physically, he bugged out. I don't see how that's NOT sexist, especially considering what an "old fashioned" dude Riley was (gag).

Furthermore, her strength HAD bothered him from the very beginning. Remember when he found out she was Slayer and she told him how many demons she's killed? He reacted insecurely even way back then.

Riley's problem was that Buffy began to treat him like fine china after the events of "Out of Sight". His biggest problem was that he believed that she still loved Angel and that he would always be second place in her affections. He was right, but he failed to address the issue, until it was too late. Riley visiting the vamp whores had nothing to do with some insecurity about his strength. It had a great deal to do with his insecurity about Buffy's feelings for him and her relationship with Angel.

But something tells me that I'm wasting my breath. Most of the fans want to label Riley as a sexist pig, because he's unpopular and it meshes with Whedon's feminist theme for the show.

 

[fly on the wall]

Riley's problem was that Buffy began to treat him like fine china after the events of "Out of Sight".

See, I don't see Buffy treating him any differently than she treats any other human in her life.
She protects Willow, Xander, Giles etc in the exact same way. They occasionally go on patrol with her, but she expects them to hang back and not engage in combat because they have human strength that can't match a demon's.
And, as much as possible, she patrols alone...without their help. Again, because they have human strength and she doesn't.
Same with Riley. Once he lost his super-extra-special strength, she treated him physically like she would anyone else.
Should she have encouraged him instead, to throw himself into dangerous situations and get pounded into paste? Should she have humored him to protect his insecurities and ultimately get him really hurt? I don't see why she's expected to play into his insecurities here.
Xander used to be WAY insecure that Buffy was stronger than him, but you didn't see Buffy letting him go fight demons by himself. Was she wrong there, too?

His biggest problem was that he believed that she still loved Angel and that he would always be second place in her affections. He was right, but he failed to address the issue, until it was too late. Riley visiting the vamp whores had nothing to do with some insecurity about his strength. It had a great deal to do with his insecurity about Buffy's feelings for him and her relationship with Angel.

I've always felt that the vamp whores were a small issue, honestly. It was made into a huge issue by the writers but it was unnecessary, because their relationship had so many deeper problems than that. That little plot twist didn't even need to happen for most viewers to want Riley gone.

And it could be argued that the vamp whores WERE a symptom of Riley's strength insecurities. He wanted Buffy to need him physically, like the vampires did. Sounds like a strength issue to me.

But something tells me that I'm wasting my breath. Most of the fans want to label Riley as a sexist pig, because he's unpopular and it meshes with Whedon's feminist theme for the show.

I think it's important here that he was unpopular. He was unpopular for many reasons...and some of them are completely valid reasons. Perhaps we label him as a sexist pig because....he was one?

And honestly, I wouldn't call him "a sexist pig," I don't think it was something he did intentionally. He was just "old-fashioned" (gag) and honestly probably thought it was the way he was supposed to act. But that almost makes it worse.

 

[LadyLavinia]

See, I don't see Buffy treating him any differently than she treats any other human in her life.
She protects Willow, Xander, Giles etc in the exact same way.

See, you've forgotten about "Fool in Love" in which Buffy had insisted that the Scoobies accompany Riley on his vamp hunt, thinking they could protect him. Apparently, she had forgotten how useless they were as fighting comrades and protectors for Kendra in "Becoming". And Riley proved just how useless they were in "Fool For Love".

I think it's important here that he was unpopular. He was unpopular for many reasons...and some of them are completely valid reasons. Perhaps we label him as a sexist pig because....he was one?

Riley had a bad habit of revolving his world and opinions around women, especially Maggie Walsh and Buffy.

And honestly, I wouldn't call him "a sexist pig," I don't think it was something he did intentionally. He was just "old-fashioned" (gag) and honestly probably thought it was the way he was supposed to act. But that almost makes it worse.

You might as well state that you dislike him because he's not Angel or Spike; and for this reason, you believe that he is a sexist pig.


But you know what? I refuse to continue in this debate. As I had stated earlier, I believe that most fans hate Riley and want to place ALL OF THE BLAME on his breakup with Buffy on his shoulders. Why bother arguing? I will never agree with you. But I will no longer waste my time debating the issue.

 

[Taake]

See, you've forgotten about "Fool in Love" in which Buffy had insisted that the Scoobies accompany Riley on his vamp hunt, thinking they could protect him. Apparently, she had forgotten how useless they were as fighting comrades and protectors for Kendra in "Becoming". And Riley proved just how useless they were in "Fool For Love".

I wouldn't say that she wanted them to 'protect' Riley. I more thought of it as she sent them along so they would be his back ups, like sometimes they were hers, and had on occasion made themselves useful as such in the past.

 

[Kana]

I think that is part of Riley's complex. She didn't mind Riley patrolling by himself or with the Scoobies but she doesn't want him around when she's there. As I've said, he felt pushed away.

 

[fly on the wall]

I wouldn't say that she wanted them to 'protect' Riley. I more thought of it as she sent them along so they would be his back ups, like sometimes they were hers, and had on occasion made themselves useful as such in the past.

Agreed.

I really don't know how my opinions of Riley, based off his character and how he acted, somehow mean that I don't like him because he wasn't Angel or Spike. What has that got to do with anything? So because I don't like him, it must be because he's not Angel or Spike? Just because you like him doesn't mean the people who dislike him don't have perfectly valid reasons for doing so.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I wouldn't say that she wanted them to 'protect' Riley. I more thought of it as she sent them along so they would be his back ups, like sometimes they were hers, and had on occasion made themselves useful as such in the past.

I don't recall the Scoobies accompanying Buffy on patrols on a regular basis. Only for the end of the season events. And they were pretty useless as back ups in "Fool For Love" and "Becoming".

I really don't know how my opinions of Riley, based off his character and how he acted, somehow mean that I don't like him because he wasn't Angel or Spike. What has that got to do with anything? So because I don't like him, it must be because he's not Angel or Spike? Just because you like him doesn't mean the people who dislike him don't have perfectly valid reasons for doing so.

Dislike him all you want. But most of the reasoning behind this dislike of Riley makes no sense to me. It seems driven more by emotion and desire to paint him as a sexist. And I've noticed that a good number of arguments against Riley seemed to bring either Angel, Spike or both into the topic.