Riley and Buffy - Where does the blame lie?

[zobothehobo]

Dislike him all you want. But most of the reasoning behind this dislike of Riley makes no sense to me. It seems driven more by emotion and desire to paint him as a sexist. And I've noticed that a good number of arguments against Riley seemed to bring either Angel, Spike or both into the topic.

I don't want Riley to be sexist... I think sometimes he is sexist... but I don't want him to be. See, I HATE watching a TV show with a character I dislike. I don't want to dislike the characters on my favorite show... So I don't manipulate his character's actions to make him look sexist or awful. I just don't like him. And I don't think he's sexist... I think it's the fact SOMEONE was stronger than him that annoyed and hurt him... not that it was a girl. Which doesn't make it all that much better... so he's just egotistical instead of sexist and traditional... oh joy

 

[Tammarie]

Okay, well I'm female and i side with Riley
BUT I also sympathise with Buffy.
At the beginning of their relationship and almost all the way to the end of it, it seemed like Riley was really trying. While Buffy was going through hard times and everything, with her mother dying, in a healthy relationship she probably should've been able to confide in Riley, and if she couldn't confide in him maybe she shouldn't have...I want to use the phrase 'lead him on', but it doesn't seem right...
Granted, Riley could've handled it better towards the end, but for the majority of their relationship I feel Buffy wasn't exactly giving it her all, and that's not exactly fair to Riley.
The ultimatum was a really, really block-headed thing to do (did the military ask him to come back before or after Buffy found out about the vamp whores?? because if it was before, when exactly did he plan on telling her??)

I do hate Riley..quite a lot, but when I'm watching scenes between him and Buffy I can't help but see that she is being rather unfair to him while he is so devoted to her for so long

 

[fly on the wall]

I don't recall the Scoobies accompanying Buffy on patrols on a regular basis. Only for the end of the season events. And they were pretty useless as back ups in "Fool For Love" and "Becoming".

Personally I think she sent the Scoobies along with Riley just as she would insist that ALL the Scoobies stick together, rather than letting just Xander or Willow go looking for clues/evidence/what have you alone. Buffy always preferred patrolling alone, however.

Dislike him all you want. But most of the reasoning behind this dislike of Riley makes no sense to me. It seems driven more by emotion and desire to paint him as a sexist. And I've noticed that a good number of arguments against Riley seemed to bring either Angel, Spike or both into the topic.

I suppose it's natural that people pull the characters they like into discussions about characters they hate, especially to compare Buffy's relationships. However, I haven't done that.

I do have plenty of reasons for disliking Riley...but I feel very strongly about my dislike of him, which is probably why it seems like my opinion is simply driven by emotion.

And as I said, I don't think Riley is as sexist as he could be...that being said, I do think he is bothered by a woman's strength, power, and sexuality. This isn't something I force onto his character to fit into my image of Riley or to match some overarching theme...it is something I have noticed over MANY rewatches. On top of that, I cannot stand his personality (which is just as valid a reason to dislike a character as anything else). But I've already talked at length about what bothers me about Riley and if you don't believe me, if you think that I just ENJOY hating a character on my favorite TV show, that's fine.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Personally I think she sent the Scoobies along with Riley just as she would insist that ALL the Scoobies stick together, rather than letting just Xander or Willow go looking for clues/evidence/what have you alone. Buffy always preferred patrolling alone, however.




I suppose it's natural that people pull the characters they like into discussions about characters they hate, especially to compare Buffy's relationships. However, I haven't done that.

I do have plenty of reasons for disliking Riley...but I feel very strongly about my dislike of him, which is probably why it seems like my opinion is simply driven by emotion.

And as I said, I don't think Riley is as sexist as he could be...that being said, I do think he is bothered by a woman's strength, power, and sexuality. This isn't something I force onto his character to fit into my image of Riley or to match some overarching theme...it is something I have noticed over MANY rewatches. On top of that, I cannot stand his personality (which is just as valid a reason to dislike a character as anything else). But I've already talked at length about what bothers me about Riley and if you don't believe me, if you think that I just ENJOY hating a character on my favorite TV show, that's fine.

If you say that it's fine, I'm a-okay with that.

 

[goodbyetonight]

I fall into the "I'm female and I agree with Riley" camp. Riley was the best boyfriend, as far as being an emotionally healthy relationship, that Buffy had in the series. But she just crapped all over him because he didn't have fangs. I just finished watching Seasons 4 and 5 again and I forgot how much I liked him. He's probably the only person on the show I would want to date in real life...very kind and devoted.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I never understood the belief that Riley wanted to marry a "normal woman" and have a "normal life", when he ended up marrying a demon hunter. As of S8, they were still married.

 

[Angels baby101]

I think the blame lies between the two of them honestly. It takes two to make a relationship work really. Buffy should have included Riley more if she really loved him, however she was dealing with some major issues and he should have definitely seen that and understood that she may need some time and space. So i'm keeping it neutral. They both could have worked a little harder to make things work, if they would have worked at it instead of taking each other for granted and making stupid choices (Riley and the whole vamp bit) I think they could have made it work a while longer though eventually they would have broken up anyways. Lets face it Buffy is going to be with angel 😛 hahahaha sorry die hard Bangel.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I think the blame lies between the two of them honestly. It takes two to make a relationship work really. Buffy should have included Riley more if she really loved him, however she was dealing with some major issues and he should have definitely seen that and understood that she may need some time and space.

I do agree that both were to blame. But I don't see why Riley should have realized that she had some major issues, when she wasn't exactly being open about them. He was having his own major issues, including the consequences of Maggie Walsh's experiment on him. And she was treating him as a piece of fine china and a convenient bed warmer. On the other hand, regardless of what Buffy was going through, Riley should have said something to Buffy, so that they could have a chance to discuss their problems. Instead, he kept it buried within himself, until it festered into his dealings with the vamp whore. And he SHOULD NOT have revolved his life around Buffy. This was the second time that he allowed someone else - namely a female - to dictate his life. This was not Maggie Walsh or Buffy's fault. This was Riley's.

 

[The Unspoken]

I just realized this discussion is perhaps a moot point. Buffy was willing to forgive Riley and deal with their issues - she simply was too late. And that's reflected in Xander's speech: it's not about who's to blame (most), it's about getting over the mistakes they made and not letting pride get in the way of what could otherwise be a great relationship.

 

[Selfless705]

This took me a long time to actually work out. Its a hard question to ask yourself :/ Buffy was involved in the slaying and, during the beginning of season 5 she did kind of ignore riley. So yh she was in the wrong there.

But Riley over reacted, getting vamps to bite him? Because his girlfriend is ignoring him? I get buffy has issues, and he feels kind of "joe normal" in comparison with her ex's. But when i first saw the scene with him getting bitten, i was surprised. And the way he acted when Angel came down, kind of made me really not like him.

Then finally when Riley was given the choice of leaving or staying, then he gave that choice to Buffy. Too be honest, i think he took the easy way out, buffy shouldnt have had to make that choice at all. It should have been between them. They were a couple. And he gave her the responsibility.

So yeah i voted "Im male and i side with Buffy"

Much Love
Luke

 

[StarSlayer]

I just realized this discussion is perhaps a moot point. Buffy was willing to forgive Riley and deal with their issues - she simply was too late. And that's reflected in Xander's speech: it's not about who's to blame (most), it's about getting over the mistakes they made and not letting pride get in the way of what could otherwise be a great relationship.

ITA, but at the same, it's also why I still blame Riley. Even before proposing the ultimatum, Buffy was willing to work things out with Riley. Yet, when he gave the ultimatum, it pissed off Buffy. He put her in a position where she had to make the choice, although she was already willing to work things out. It was him who really needed to make the choice. Stay with Buffy (be the boyfriend) or go back to the government (be the soldier). Although I'm not the biggest fan of Xander's speech, I understand his points. What I take from his speech more so is that he helped Buffy realize she could see a future with Riley. And she wasn't willing to give up on that, especially after what happened with Angel leaving and all. However, Riley put her in this position of making it seem like it was about her and that she had to choose, when it wasn't. At the end of the day, I think it was more his choice and he wasn't willing to work it out or trust in his relationship with Buffy enough.

 

[The Unspoken]

ITA, but at the same, it's also why I still blame Riley. Even before proposing the ultimatum, Buffy was willing to work things out with Riley. Yet, when he gave the ultimatum, it pissed off Buffy. He put her in a position where she had to make the choice, although she was already willing to work things out. It was him who really needed to make the choice. Stay with Buffy (be the boyfriend) or go back to the government (be the soldier). Although I'm not the biggest fan of Xander's speech, I understand his points. What I take from his speech more so is that he helped Buffy realize she could see a future with Riley. And she wasn't willing to give up on that, especially after what happened with Angel leaving and all. However, Riley put her in this position of making it seem like it was about her and that she had to choose, when it wasn't. At the end of the day, I think it was more his choice and he wasn't willing to work it out or trust in his relationship with Buffy enough.

It wasn't about whether Buffy wanted to work things out - it's about whether she had the ability to do so, i.e. whether she could let Riley in and not shut him out emotionally, like she had before.
Take the following dialogue for example:

BUFFY: Then what? What else do you want from me, Riley? I've given you everything that I have, I've given you my heart, my body and soul!
RILEY: You say that, but I don't feel it. I just don't feel it.
BUFFY: Well, whose fault its that? Because I'm telling you, this is it, this is me. This is the package. And if it's so deficient that you need to get your kicks elsewhere ... then we really have a problem.

If she couldn't let him in, then there was no reason for Riley, for the both of them, to continue in this relationship. Riley's ultimatum was unfortunate, but it was a one time offer he got from the military and if he couldn't save his relationship with Buffy, then he should at least take a once in a lifetime job opportunity.

Of course, it was only because of the ultimatum that she realized that they could work through their issues. (I'm not giving Riley any credit for this, but just saying...)

 

[StarSlayer]

It wasn't about whether Buffy wanted to work things out - it's about whether she had the ability to do so, i.e. whether she could let Riley in and not shut him out emotionally, like she had before.

I think Buffy did have the ability though, which was confirmed in "Intervention." She's full of love. I think the problem for Buffy was that she was afraid of really letting go because she knows what love can lead to, based on her relationship with Angel. It can lead to pain, being hurt, and being alone. But, like I said, I think Xander helped her realize that she could see a future with Riley and shouldn't be afraid.

If she couldn't let him in, then there was no reason for Riley, for the both of them, to continue in this relationship. Riley's ultimatum was unfortunate, but it was a one time offer he got from the military and if he couldn't save his relationship with Buffy, then he should at least take a once in a lifetime job opportunity.

IMO, that's still no excuse for the ultimatum though, lol. It's the classic debate between love or career. Riley chose his career because he didn't feel something from Buffy, which is crap (to an extent) because Buffy opened up to him about things she never did with anyone, not even Angel. It's hard for me to see Riley coming from a lesser position of blame than Buffy since he was the one who wanted to get a rush from the vampire whores in order to feel needed.

Of course, it was only because of the ultimatum that she realized that they could work through their issues. (I'm not giving Riley any credit for this, but just saying...)

Like I said, if anything, the ultimatum helped Buffy realize that she loved Riley and saw a future with him. He still put the blame on her and then left.

 

[The Unspoken]

Riley didn't blame Buffy - he stated the reason for his vamp whoring, he didn't say he was justified in doing so because of Buffy shutting him out.

RILEY: This isn't your fault. It's mine. I feel like hell for what I've put you through.

But again, Riley's cheating doesn't mean they can't work through their issues.

And he didn't chose his career over his relationship; him pursuing the military offer was dependent upon whether or not Buffy could reciprocate his feelings, i.e. he only pursued his career AFTER he thought he couldn't get Buffy to open up. When he gives Buffy the ultimatum, he's not trying to brush aside his cheating, he only wants to know if Buffy is able to let him in.

 

[StarSlayer]

Riley didn't blame Buffy - he stated the reason for his vamp whoring, he didn't say he was justified in doing so because of Buffy shutting him out.

This is again one of the reasons why I hate him so. Although he said it wasn't Buffy's fault, he still makes it out like it is her fault and that she's the one that needs to ultimately change.

BUFFY: Then what? What else do you want from me, Riley? I've given you everything that I have, I've given you my heart, my body and soul!
RILEY: You say that, but I don't feel it. I just don't feel it.
BUFFY: Well, whose fault its that? Because I'm telling you, this is it, this is me. This is the package. And if it's so deficient that you need to get your kicks elsewhere ... then we really have a problem.

But again, Riley's cheating doesn't mean they can't work through their issues.

I agree. I think they could have worked through it, despite the cheating (although I hate him and his reasoning for wanting to get bitten by the vampires).

And he didn't chose his career over his relationship; him pursuing the military offer was dependent upon whether or not Buffy could reciprocate his feelings, i.e. he only pursued his career AFTER he thought he couldn't get Buffy to open up. When he gives Buffy the ultimatum, he's not trying to brush aside his cheating, he only wants to know if Buffy is able to let him in.

Oh, please, lol! He made the decision to leave. He made the decision to put Buffy in the position where she had to choose. If he really wanted to work things out with Buffy, he could have disregarded what the military offered him. By giving Buffy the ultimatum, he's essentially saying that he wants to feel something from her (although she's really opened up to him) or he's out. He even wanted Buffy to hit him if it meant he felt something (anything) from her before she left. I hate how he not only tells Buffy that he doesn't feel something from her, but that he needs to feel something from her quickly or else he's gone. (I mentioned most of this earlier in the thread too, so I won't try and repeat myself 🙂)

 

[Kana]

This is again one of the reasons why I hate him so. Although he said it wasn't Buffy's fault, he still makes it out like it is her fault and that she's the one that needs to ultimately change.

Here's where we differ because while I don't condone what Riley did, I do think in the training room he's trying to explain how he feels. He was being as honest as he could be, but all Buffy could hear at the time was "Forgive me, admit you were in the wrong or I'm gone" which wasn't what his ultimatum was about.

I agree. I think they could have worked through it, despite the cheating (although I hate him and his reasoning for wanting to get bitten by the vampires).

It was a stupid way to handle it, but he did try to address the larger issue of why he did it.

Oh, please, lol! He made the decision to leave. He made the decision to put Buffy in the position where she had to choose. If he really wanted to work things out with Buffy, he could have disregarded what the military offered him. By giving Buffy the ultimatum, he's essentially saying that he wants to feel something from her (although she's really opened up to him) or he's out.

She had to deal with the fact that she did shut him out. I don't think she did it intentionally but she did take Riley for granted, that was the larger issue the ultimatum was addressing.

He even wanted Buffy to hit him if it meant he felt something (anything) from her before she left. I hate how he not only tells Buffy that he doesn't feel something from her, but that he needs to feel something from her quickly or else he's gone. (I mentioned most of this earlier in the thread too, so I won't try and repeat myself 🙂)

I do get what you mean, but I think for Riley he felt like this for a while. He even asked Buffy before to let him in but she didn't, so from her perspective it was sudden but from his, it wasn't. Don't get me wrong, he should have said something more than...

Every time I think I'm
getting close to you...
(he moves to go)
I gotta take off.

and,

know you got a lot on your mind.
You decide you wanna let me in
on any of it, you let me know.
(resignedly)
I'll come running.

I'm not being facetious, I really mean it, he should have had a proper conversation about but this shows that even from Buffy's perspective, his feelings were not ex nihilo. Both of them were in the 'land of not dealing' and I'm glad Xander snapped Buffy out of it. Even if it was quick, as Xander pointed out, why wouldn't she stop him? Regardless of the time frame, on Buffy's side she really should have appreciated him when she had the chance. Again not placing the blame on her but evening out the argument. Both of them had issues and didn't handle them in the best way.

 

[The Unspoken]

I hate to say this, but I detect a clear double standard with regards to Riley/Buffy and Willow/Oz. While no one has any issues with Oz taking Willow back after her cheating, most of the fandom blames Riley (completely) for the breakup. This despite the fact that Oz wasn't to blame for Willow's affair with Xander, whereas Riley seeking out those vamp whores was a result of Buffy shutting him out (again, not a justification, but a reason for his behavior). And I'd argue that vamp whoring is a lesser offense than if he had cheated on her in a conventional way.

 

[Kana]

I hate to say this, but I detect a clear double standard with regards to Riley/Buffy and Willow/Oz. While no one has any issues with Oz taking Willow back after her cheating, most of the fandom blames Riley (completely) for the breakup. This despite the fact that Oz wasn't to blame for Willow's affair with Xander, whereas Riley seeking out those vamp whores was a result of Buffy shutting him out (again, not a justification, but a reason for his behavior). And I'd argue that vamp whoring is a lesser offense than if he had cheated on her in a conventional way.

Well I think the ultimatum is the reason a lot of people have an issue with him. I think a lot of it is because people simply don't like him, especially compared to the vampires (who admittedly have a lot more allure but that's besides the point), and when people don't like a character they are less forgiving of their failings, which sounds obvious but in my view, Riley gets a lot more flak than he deserves when other characters have done a lot worse both in relationships and otherwise. There's more information here

 

[StarSlayer]

Well I think the ultimatum is the reason a lot of people have an issue with him. I think a lot of it is because people simply don't like him, especially compared to the vampires (who admittedly have a lot more allure but that's besides the point), and when people don't like a character they are less forgiving of their failings, which sounds obvious but in my view, Riley gets a lot more flak than he deserves when other characters have done a lot worse both in relationships and otherwise. There's more information here

For me, that's not entirely true. The ultimatum was the last straw. I started to hate him around "Out of My Mind," when he thought he wasn't good enough for Buffy because he wasn't like Angel. It just grew and grew with each episode and "Into the Woods,"...ugh, i wanted to rip his head off, lol!

However, I liked Riley in "As You Were," when he came back. He was happy, found someone who complemented him well, and helped Buffy remember that she's a strong woman. IMO, the Riley I saw in s5 wasn't there yet. But the Riley I saw in s6 was and it eased some of my hatred toward him. 🙂

---------- Post added at 09:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 AM ----------

Here's where we differ because while I don't condone what Riley did, I do think in the training room he's trying to explain how he feels. He was being as honest as he could be, but all Buffy could hear at the time was "Forgive me, admit you were in the wrong or I'm gone" which wasn't what his ultimatum was about.

I agree that Riley was trying to be honest, but like I said. I hate his reasonings.

I'm not being facetious, I really mean it, he should have had a proper conversation about but this shows that even from Buffy's perspective, his feelings were not ex nihilo. Both of them were in the 'land of not dealing' and I'm glad Xander snapped Buffy out of it. Even if it was quick, as Xander pointed out, why wouldn't she stop him? Regardless of the time frame, on Buffy's side she really should have appreciated him when she had the chance. Again not placing the blame on her but evening out the argument. Both of them had issues and didn't handle them in the best way.

For me, I think Buffy did appreciate Riley, which is why I have issues with Xander's speech. She stood up for Riley in front of Angel. She opened up to Riley. She wanted to help him get better in "Out of My Mind." I think she even loved Riley because she showed it in her own ways at times. When she goes through a tough phase with her mom, Dawn, and all, I just don't like how Riley thinks it means Buffy is slipping away and not being close when she doesn't call him or want to talk to him about it. Buffy's still learning about relationships and she felt she had to be strong. She dealt with it in the best way she knew how. I can't blame her for that, not a bit.

 

[Professor Walsh]

Sidetrack

On a slight tangent ...

I do get what you mean, but I think for Riley he felt like this for a while. He even asked Buffy before to let him in but she didn't, so from her perspective it was sudden but from his, it wasn't. Don't get me wrong, he should have said something more than...

Currently, I'm reading "Ronja, the Robber's Daughter" to my five-year-old, and time and time again I find myself marvelling at Astrid Lindgren's ability to portray the way Ronja and Birk get stuck because they can't find the words for their emotions.