Riley and Buffy - Where does the blame lie?

Where does the blame lie?

  • I am male and I side with Riley

    Votes: 7 8.0%
  • I am male and I side with Buffy

    Votes: 8 9.1%
  • I am female and I side with Riley

    Votes: 15 17.0%
  • I am female and I side with Buffy

    Votes: 35 39.8%
  • I'm neutral

    Votes: 17 19.3%
  • I'm undecided

    Votes: 6 6.8%

  • Total voters
    88
I think Riley found a really good partner in his wife, Sam. In the small glimpse of their life we were given, I think they were a nice match. They're both really good strategists, fighters, and soldiers. Sorry if this is a bit off topic, lol, but I think this is more support for the idea that Riley isn't threatened by strong women per se, but by inequality.
 
Riley "dated the strongest woman in the world for about a year" before he had to accept the fact that, try as he might, he would never be her equal, let alone her protector. Also, sleeping with Faith in Buffy's body and her reaction to his declaration of love almost certainly didn't help Riley's feelings that she didn't really love him, no matter how much he tried to dismiss the idea intellectually. "I was making love to YOU, not her" pretty much summs that up. Maybe it was only a subconscious thought, but it was definitely there.

As for workink for a powerful woman before he met Buffy, certainly Maggie Walsh was a person of high rank and authority, but she almost certainly made it quite clear that, if anything should happen, she was depending on Riley to protect her from any Hostile Subterranean that might attack. Maggie's power never threatened Riley's self image as a man the way that Buffy's did, because, like her, he took the greatest pride in his PHYSICAL superiority over anyone else. Buffy burst his little bubble about that.

For crying out loud, what makes you so sure Riley is threatened by Buffy 's physical superiority?

In A New Man Riley finally gets the full extent of Buffy's power and skills. His reaction?

Riley: [...]You're really strong. Like Spider-Man strong.
[...]
Riley: And you're in charge. You're like, make the plan, execute the plan. No one giving you orders.

Buffy: I'm the Slayer.

Riley: I like it.

Buffy: (smiles) Yeah?

Riley: But give me another . . oh . . week to get ready. And I'll take you down.

But the last line is followed by a smile so he is joking about that. At the end of the episode he is is all "let's break the rules and include Buffy in our group of commandos". He must be a real glutton for punishment if he is threatened by women stronger than him - he wants her to show off her skills in front of the soldiers he commands. Kind of like "I hate women stronger than me...so I will just show as many people as possible that my girlfriend can kick my ass". Okay...

In S5 he wants to remain stronger because he has deluded himself that this is what Buffy likes. Which is quite retarded in itself, don't get me wrong but has nothing to do with being threatened by strong women. Had Buffy's previous relationship been with Xander Riley would have tried to crack jokes Xander style. It was all about trying to match Angel.

Also, Riley isn't some idiot who knows nothing but the army and measures people merit by the strength of their punches only. His psychology degree is genuine. He seems to like Willow a lot. Helps with putting a Lesbian Alliance banner at UC Sunnydale and doesn't seem to have any problem with Willow/Tara. So I find it rather hard to see him as someone who is totally in the grips of the evil patriarchal tradition...

Sorry, but I don't see Riley coming from a very honest and vulnerable position. The problem for me was he wanted to feel needed at a time where Buffy was dealing with more things than usual. She had her slayer duties and college studies, but her mom was also recovering from surgery and Glory was hunting Dawn.

It's not as if Buffy informed Riley about Dawn so you can't really blame him for ignoring that problem.
 
X
xaphania
That was early on in the relationship. The insecurities built over time.
For crying out loud, what makes you so sure Riley is threatened by Buffy 's "physical superiority?

From Out of My Mind:
RILEY: (shakes his head) It's not about him. It's about us. (Buffy shakes her head, not understanding) You're getting stronger every day, more powerful. I can't touch you. Every day, you're just ... a little further out of my reach.
He was very insecure and threatened by Buffy's physical superiority.
 
As I said this is all about Angel:

RILEY: I go back ... let the government get whimsical with my innards again ... They could do anything that- Best-case scenario, they turn me into Joe Normal, just... (sighs) Just another guy.
BUFFY: And that's not enough for you?
RILEY: It's not enough for *you*.
BUFFY: Why would you say that?
RILEY: Come on. Your last boyfriend wasn't exactly a civilian.
 
But whose fault was it to think it was all about Angel? Riley. Buffy made it clear, to Angel even, that she was with Riley now. Riley should have trusted Buffy more rather than blame her for his own insecurities.
 
Then again I never claimed it was Buffy's fault Riley got that silly idea into his head. I actually specifically claimed the writers pulled this sudden twist out of their asses to get to Spuffy. 🙂

P.S. Although with the benefit of hindsight, it's hard to deny that Riley was on to something, especially if we count S8.
 
Then again I never claimed it was Buffy's fault Riley got that silly idea into his head. I actually specifically claimed the writers pulled this sudden twist out of their asses to get to Spuffy. 🙂

Getting a little off topic, but Spuffy really didn't happen until s6 though, and s5 was thought to be the last season. So, you had "Crush," where Spike admitted his feelings, but that didn't bring them together. You then had "Intervention," which was more Buffy realizing Spike could be good and loyal. And, with the rest of the season, Spike helped out Buffy and the Scoobies in the battle against Glory.
 
Can I suggest that Buffy and Riley's relationship ended because they were simply not compatible? By that argument, I think it's reasonable to assign both parties equal, or at least some blame.

On the other hand, the bad terms on which their relationship ended I personally think is entirely Riley's fault. We're pretty much all agreed that going to vampire prostitutes was a stupid thing to do, and among *most* of us anyway, the ultimatum he gave her was unfair. These. are. crappy. decisions. They're not without context, but it's a horrible thing to do to anyone, really.

I'm not a complete Riley hater myself because I think the beginning and middle of it is pretty harmless (and Buffy seems happy with him! Rare break for that girl 😉), but towards the end, especially in Season 5...yeesh. No thank you. 😛
 
From Out of My Mind:
RILEY: (shakes his head) It's not about him. It's about us. (Buffy shakes her head, not understanding) You're getting stronger every day, more powerful. I can't touch you. Every day, you're just ... a little further out of my reach.
He was very insecure and threatened by Buffy's physical superiority.

That line was about emotional distance - he can't touch her emotionally. Buffy's increasing focus on her Slayer duties ('getting stronger every day, more powerful') led to her emotionally distancing herself from Riley. She acknowledges this plenty of times later in the season, like when she questions her ability to love in 'Intervention'.

Personally, I think the writers did a nice job with how Buffy's strength threw Riley off a bit but then he quickly embraced it. I'm a little shocked to see how so many think he's some macho prick who always has to be in charge. I just don't see it.

I think this may be a good time to agree to disagree and discuss the other aspects of their breakup.
 
Kana
Kana
[No message]
That line was about emotional distance - he can't touch her emotionally. Buffy's increasing focus on her Slayer duties ('getting stronger every day, more powerful') led to her emotionally distancing herself from Riley. She acknowledges this plenty of times later in the season, like when she questions her ability to love in 'Intervention'.

Personally, I think the writers did a nice job with how Buffy's strength threw Riley off a bit but then he quickly embraced it. I'm a little shocked to see how so many think he's some macho prick who always has to be in charge. I just don't see it.

I think this may be a good time to agree to disagree and discuss the other aspects of their breakup.

Today, I've done a little marathon starting at The Yoko Factor and I just finished Into the Woods. There were several times I saw Riley be the "I have to be in charge" guy. Two that come to mind: blowing up the crypt in Fool For Love and the whole episode of Listening to Fear.

As I've just watched the beginning of season 5... I really don't see how Buffy was that emotionally distant. I didn't before so I figured watching it would refresh my memory but it just made me more convinced people exaggerate Buffy's emotional distance a whole lot. Like I've said before in this thread, I am a lot like Buffy. In times of crisis, I often hold out asking for emotional help because I don't want to admit it's so bad I need help. Also I do the "I can't start or I won't stop" thing a lot. It's obvious Buffy does both of those things, but I honestly don't think she cut Riley out all that much. I really can't help but be annoyed by his demands and request that she be a whiny little cry Buffy. I get bottling everything up inside isn't the best and I know I do it just like Buffy knows she does it. However, sometimes it's just who we are. How we cope with things in a crisis like that is just part of who we are. It's not about pushing others away or cutting ourselves off... it's about doing what's best for us in that moment. In a crisis like that, it's hard to look beyond the moment. All you can do is hope that the people in your life will understand that and allow you to deal with things the best way you know how. If you ask for help, they should be there for you... and if you don't, you should know they're there if you need them. But it's no one's place but yours to tell you how to cope in a situation like that. When my father was diagnosed with cancer a couple years ago, he almost died. If they made the diagnosis a day later, it probably would have been too late. If someone had told me I was being too distant or shutting them out because I wasn't sharing what I was feeling at every moment in time, I probably would have punched them in the face and said "get the hell away from me right now." I don't blame Buffy for having the little bit of emotional distance she had. She was scared and honestly, it's hard to tell someone what you're feeling when you don't even know yourself.

I could go on ranting, but it probably wouldn't make much sense.
 
I'm a female and I generally side with Buffy. In some aspects I do feel for Riley with Buffy kind of ignoring him but that's where it ends. At the end of the day Riley felt that Buffy didn't lean on him like she should which in the end is a quality I didn't like about Riley. But even sometimes I felt that all Riley wanted was for Buffy to let him and make that connection with, although ultimately Riley went the wrong way about it, he blamed it on her not needing him and him not being 'dark' enough for her, when it was really all about his insecurities. Overall I think it was Riley's insecurities which kind of made the realtionship take on wrong turn, after all having had all these insecurities meant that he shouldn't have been in a relationship, right? If he wasn't happy with himself (not being strong enough, etc) he shouldn't have been in a relationship.
 
S
StarSlayer
[No message]
Today, I've done a little marathon starting at The Yoko Factor and I just finished Into the Woods. There were several times I saw Riley be the "I have to be in charge" guy. Two that come to mind: blowing up the crypt in Fool For Love and the whole episode of Listening to Fear.

As I've just watched the beginning of season 5... I really don't see how Buffy was that emotionally distant.

I think it's a variety of things. Riley was very expressive of his feelings for Buffy whereas Buffy didn't, or more importantly couldn't do the same. This would all be well and good if Buffy were typcially that sort of the person prior to this. At the point of the Replacement, Riley had no way of knowing one way or the other. Riley mistakenly thinks that Buffy wants a superhero for a boyfriend but part of his insecurity is generally being less than what he was. Does it bother Riley, that Buffy is stronger than him? Yes but as I've always said, that something that Riley may have adjusted to. It certainly wasn't the main focal point of the end of their relationship.


I didn't before so I figured watching it would refresh my memory but it just made me more convinced people exaggerate Buffy's emotional distance a whole lot. Like I've said before in this thread, I am a lot like Buffy. In times of crisis, I often hold out asking for emotional help because I don't want to admit it's so bad I need help. Also I do the "I can't start or I won't stop" thing a lot. It's obvious Buffy does both of those things, but I honestly don't think she cut Riley out all that much. I really can't help but be annoyed by his demands and request that she be a whiny little cry Buffy.

I don't think she meant to. Buffy had been shutting Riley out of her life, slowly but surely. Slaying is a huge part of her life but while she was happy to let him patrol when she wasn't there, she didn't want him around when she was slaying. Thier love making was more stress relief for Buffy than anything else. Buffy took Riley's support for granted and no matter what you're going through it's not the best thing you can do while in a relationship.

The problem is that Buffy saw Riley as another thing to take care of, which misses the point entirely. A couple should face problems together. If she shuts him out of her personal life and Slayer life then all you have is "Friends With Benefits".


I get bottling everything up inside isn't the best and I know I do it just like Buffy knows she does it. However, sometimes it's just who we are.

Yep, I've done that, and you know what? It doesn't work. I've seen things from both perspectives and so I know how it feels to be shut out and I know how scary it can be to let people in, but in a healthy relationship you have to learn to do that. If anything Buffy (and others who do this, and yes I'm including myself in this) should learn from that. A couple is stronger when they are together.

How we cope with things in a crisis like that is just part of who we are. It's not about pushing others away or cutting ourselves off... it's about doing what's best for us in that moment. In a crisis like that, it's hard to look beyond the moment.

This is why I don't totally blame either one of them. Both of them dealt with the problems in different ways. Neither one of them meant to hurt the other and both of them are essentially good people. If Buffy had got to Riley in time, I would have liked to have seen what would have happened, because IMO, their relationship wasn't irreparable.

All you can do is hope that the people in your life will understand that and allow you to deal with things the best way you know how. If you ask for help, they should be there for you... and if you don't, you should know they're there if you need them.

The problem is, is that's only convenient for one person in the relationship. It's really best for everyone if you open up. It's scary, I know but it's better for both of them in the long run.

But it's no one's place but yours to tell you how to cope in a situation like that. When my father was diagnosed with cancer a couple years ago, he almost died. If they made the diagnosis a day later, it probably would have been too late. If someone had told me I was being too distant or shutting them out because I wasn't sharing what I was feeling at every moment in time, I probably would have punched them in the face and said "get the hell away from me right now." I don't blame Buffy for having the little bit of emotional distance she had. She was scared and honestly, it's hard to tell someone what you're feeling when you don't even know yourself.

I could go on ranting, but it probably wouldn't make much sense

No, I totally get it and I really understand how difficult it can be to open up when you're going through something like that, but the worst thing I did was try to cope alone. It felt like the thing to do at the time but it wasn't doing me or my relationships any good. I don't blame Buffy but wished she understood that Riley's explanation wasn't about blaming buffy either, it was trying to address how he felt. He admitted he was wrong for what he did, but Buffy unfortunately didn't hear that, she felt she was getting the blame.

Riley's analysis of what he thought Buffy needed was totally erroneous to say the least, but Xander's take on it was virtually spot on. Buffy had been holding back with Riley and if she did love him or see him as someone she could count on (and we're not saying she does or has to) then she shouldn't stand there pouting about how she's in the right because she could lose the best thing that happened to her. If she doesn't feel it however then let him go. That's what the ultimatum was really about. It's not admit I'm right or stay away, it was "Love me or let me go". She must have known she held back in her heart, otherwise she never would have run after him. In the end, it was tragic it wasn't as if Buffy's a bitch or Riley's a complete arse, they were too flawed individuals who didn't cope in the best way, but I totally understand both their perspectives, you know, having been there.
 
T
The Unspoken
You hit the stake in the heart.
I side with Buffy and im a girl.

He was being so needy. He has to understand that she is the slayer and she needs to focus on slaying and she does have time for him. Doubt he had equal alone time with her as did Angel or Spike but eh. Things were getting worse as the season goes on and Riley just seemed in the way especially with his whole 'i hate life imma have vampires bite me' ugh...>.>

Lol not really a Riley fan if you can tell. Him and all his army crud and wanting to be better or equal strength with Buffy.

It diiiid suck when he left and Buffy was just a wee bit late.
 
I side with Buffy and im a girl.

He was being so needy. He has to understand that she is the slayer and she needs to focus on slaying and she does have time for him. Doubt he had equal alone time with her as did Angel or Spike but eh. Things were getting worse as the season goes on and Riley just seemed in the way especially with his whole 'i hate life imma have vampires bite me' ugh...>.>

Lol not really a Riley fan if you can tell. Him and all his army crud and wanting to be better or equal strength with Buffy.

It diiiid suck when he left and Buffy was just a wee bit late.

Hm. Not trying to convince you in anything else, but she's the slayer and she needs to focus on her slaying and doesn't have time for him? :/ Buffy is the Slayer, she is, that's who she is, not her job.. but when you love someone, or even care about someone, you have time for him. Buffy always had time for everyone. She learned how to mix business with pleasure. Maybe Riley's actions were wrong, but there are two people in relathionship.. it wasn't all his fault.
 
StarSlayer, I still stand by my "two to tango". The way I see it, the relationship between Buffy and Riley ended due to a multitude of reasons, the way real relationships in the real world often do.The "Pro-Buffy" arguments (suddenly "the pro-Caths" jumped into my mind - does anyone else enjoy Fforde?) are well and thoroughly presented here already, so I won't bother with those. Just keep in mind that I'm not trying to lay the blame on her just because I'm defending them.

Those who have read the thread Kana refers to will already know where I stand.

They were young. Now, don't jump on me and tell me that "Yeah, so what, I'm young and I'd never ... blah, blah, blah." If you've never gotten into a tangle emotionally and chosen a less-than-brilliant way out of it, fine. Good on you. But handling relationships well is tricky, and some of us need to sort a thing or two out before getting good at handling this love stuff. At thirty-three, I'm still sorting. I'm getting better, but I sure ain't perfect.

Trauma isn't excactly wholesome for a new relationship. They hadn't been together all that long, they didn't know each other all that well, and they were both going through a helluva lot. Ok, so now some of you are thinking: " 😕 🙄 As if Riley had that much to cope with?" Yeah, from my point of view he did. Let me start by quoting an article I recently read because it was kinda relevant to my studies:
I can begin with a fundamental psychological principle: We are dominated by everything with which our self is
identified. We can dominate and control everything from which we disidentify ourselves. The normal mistake
we all make is to identify ourselves with some content of consciousness rather than with consciousness itself.
Some people get their identity from their feelings, others from their thoughts, others from their social roles. But
this identification with a part of the personality destroys the freedom which comes from the experience of the
pure "1."
Keen: We identify with the predicate rather than the subject.
Assagioli: That is right. Often a crisis in life deprives a person of the function or role with which he has
identified:
an athlete's body is maimed, a lover's beloved departs with a wandering poet; a dedicated worker
must retire. Then the process of disidentification is forced on one and a solution can only come by a process of
death and rebirth in which the person enters into a broader identity. But this process can occur with conscious
cooperation.
The exercise in disidentification and identification involves practicing awareness and affirming: I have a body,
but l am not my body. I have emotions, but I am not my emotions. I have a job, but I am not my job... etc.
Systematic introspection can help to eliminate all partial self-identifications.

Now, the way I perceive Riley, his identity was tightly knit to his social rà´les. In his mind, his value was tied to how his strength could be used to protect the society. I see him as the archetypal "Good Boy", always receiving approval for what he does rather than what he is. In that case, not being able to do can almost feel comparable to not being in the first place. He, too, had his rug pretty much pulled out from under his feet. Did he handle it well? No. Do I think infidelity and ultimatums are an effective way to kill a relationship? Yes. But that does not make him an evil beast.

Whoops. Must go to a kiddo who's suddenly awake. Besides, it's past midnight, so I should go sleep.
 
Z
zobothehobo
This made me get as close to sympathizing with Riley as I'm going to get. Good job
C
clemsgirlfriend
Thanks for the article quote- first time i have felt some sympathy for Riley in the break-up
I Voted: I am female and I side with Buffy.

- Buffy Had Alot Of Important Stuff To Deal With and IMO I Think Riley Was Being Selfish
 
They were both to blame. Riley tried to make his life all about Buffy (just as Spike would attempt to do so between late Season Five and Season Seven) and it was a mistake on his part. Just as he had allowed Maggie Walsh to dictate his life before he dated Buffy, he allowed Buffy to do the same. Even worse, he failed to inform Buffy of his true feelings about everything "“ his lack of a direction in his life, the vampire whores and Buffy's growing emotional distance - until it was too late. Quite simply, Riley made three major mistakes. He failed to make a new life for himself outside of Buffy, he cavorted with vampire whores in order to explore his inner darkness and most importantly, he failed to communicate with Buffy.

Buffy also contributed to the breakup. I suspect that she had been using Riley as rebound from Angel's departure since Day One of their relationship. To her, Riley was her "Joe Normal". And this was a mistake. There is a chance that some part of Buffy had deep feelings for him, but I doubt that it was enough for a long term relationship. She also treated Riley like fine china, following the operation to remove his physical enhancements in "Out of My Mind". So what if he had lost some of his strength? He was still a competent demon hunter. He certainly proved that in (5.07) "Fool For Love". Instead, Buffy treated him like a damsel-in-distress by insisting that the Scoobies help him hunt down the vampire that attacked her. And like Riley, she failed to communicate with him. Many fans pointed out that Buffy was too busy dealing with Joyce's illness and the appearance of a new sister to deal with Riley's problems. But if Buffy needed someone to confide in, why didn't she turn to him?

So, as far as I'm concerned, both were at fault.
 
Hm. Not trying to convince you in anything else, but she's the slayer and she needs to focus on her slaying and doesn't have time for him? :/ Buffy is the Slayer, she is, that's who she is, not her job.. but when you love someone, or even care about someone, you have time for him. Buffy always had time for everyone. She learned how to mix business with pleasure. Maybe Riley's actions were wrong, but there are two people in relathionship.. it wasn't all his fault.

But is it her fault that she didn't love him? I don't think it is. I just don't think they were compatible. to be honest. They have their cute moments and she seems ostensibly happy for once, but I don't think that's enough for a relationship.

------
I haven't seen Season 4 and 5 in a while, so I'm curious...did Buffy ever deliberately hurt Riley towards the end of their relationship, or do anything as bad as Riley and his vampirettes? I honestly don't remember much about their relationship.

---------- Post added at 05:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:15 PM ----------

zobothehobo agrees: No, she didn't. She just didn't open up to him about her mom and advised against him going on patrol alone.

Well, geez? What's everyone going on about it being her fault? If she doesn't feel comfortable opening up to Riley, then that's it. I don't think it's her "fault". It's the kind of person she is at the time (still hurting over losing her lover, twice!), coupled with tons of extraneous circumstances with her family practically falling apart and a hell god on her ass. If Riley's the kind of guy who would push her or guilt her into opening up to him, then why should she stay? Also, she doesn't owe anything to him if he won't share his feelings either. Hypocritical, much.

Do we forget that he hurt her REALLY badly with the vampire suckjobs? And the ultimatum? Like, dude. Uncool. 😡
 
Z
zobothehobo
No, she didn't. She just didn't open up to him about her mom and advised against him going on patrol alone.
S
StarSlayer
Lol, uncool is right!
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