Riley and Buffy - Where does the blame lie?

[Kana]

For me, that's not entirely true. The ultimatum was the last straw. I started to hate him around "Out of My Mind," when he thought he wasn't good enough for Buffy because he wasn't like Angel. It just grew and grew with each episode and "Into the Woods,"...ugh, i wanted to rip his head off, lol!

By no means is Riley perfect but I do cut him some slack as he also had a lot to deal with. Buffy was going through a lot but he also lost a heck of a lot too. He had his insecurities but Buffy also had her issues which affected the relationship...

However, I liked Riley in "As You Were," when he came back. He was happy, found someone who complemented him well, and helped Buffy remember that she's a strong woman. IMO, the Riley I saw in s5 wasn't there yet. But the Riley I saw in s6 was and it eased some of my hatred toward him. 🙂

Exactly, he essentially a good person. He was in a dark place. Both Buffy and Riley didn't get a complete insight into the extent of their problem both personally and in the relationship. This is why I don't blame either one of them. Riley's a flawed person but then so is Buffy. My only issue is that most people only tend to see Riley's mistakes.

I agree that Riley was trying to be honest, but like I said. I hate his reasonings.

What I liked about the scene is how clumsey is was. I know that sounds odd, but it was just so honest and messy. We feel the way we feel. Riley made a mistake but it shouldn't invalid his emotions, Buffy needed to hear it.

For me, I think Buffy did appreciate Riley, which is why I have issues with Xander's speech. She stood up for Riley in front of Angel. She opened up to Riley. She wanted to help him get better in "Out of My Mind." I think she even loved Riley because she showed it in her own ways at times. When she goes through a tough phase with her mom, Dawn, and all, I just don't like how Riley thinks it means Buffy is slipping away and not being close when she doesn't call him or want to talk to him about it.

But she did push him away and took it for granted that he would be there when she wanted and piss off when it was convienient. I don't think she did this on purpose but I understand how he might feel. I think it's merely because he came after Angel. I do agree that it wasn't because Riley wasn't Angel. Although she said she loved Riley to Angel, when did she ever tell Riley himself? Again, I think Xander was right on the money and the look in Buffy's face tells when she hears tells me that as well.

Buffy's still learning about relationships and she felt she had to be strong. She dealt with it in the best way she knew how. I can't blame her for that, not a bit.

This is the point, I don't really blame either of them. I think Sam was right, there were no bad guys. 🙂

 

[StarSlayer]

My only issue is that most people only tend to see Riley's mistakes.

When he chooses to leave and not work things out, then yes. I do see that as a huge mistake. I know Riley is a good person deep down. 🙂 It doesn't mean I have to like some of his choices though and the way he handles things. People can feel that way toward any character and I feel that way toward Riley.

But she did push him away and took it for granted that he would be there when she wanted and piss off when it was convienient. I don't think she did this on purpose but I understand how he might feel. I think it's merely because he came after Angel. I do agree that it wasn't because Riley wasn't Angel. Although she said she loved Riley to Angel, when did she ever tell Riley himself? Again, I think Xander was right on the money and the look in Buffy's face tells when she hears tells me that as well.

This is one of the reasons why I hated Bangel more as I watched Buffy's relationship with Riley. Buffy was hurt when Angel broke-up with her and left. She tried to move on with Parker, and we all know how that turned out. As such, I felt Buffy took caution when it came to Riley. Her heart was broken when Angel left and the first guy she thought she was really opening up to and then slept with didn't return the feelings in anyway. Like I said, I can't blame Buffy for maybe taking it slow when it came to Riley because of what she's been through in the past. It doesn't mean though that there was no love because I do think Buffy loved Riley as shown by some of her actions. She still opened up to him and trusted him. As I said before, I think Xander helped Buffy realize that she did love him, enough to see a future with him. If Buffy got there in time before Riley took off, I really think Buffy would have told Riley that she loved him.

This is the point, I don't really blame either of them. I think Sam was right, there were no bad guys. 🙂

Yes, there were no bad guys. Just a good guy who made stupid decisions, stupid rationales, which I hate. 🙂

 

[GrrArghx]

I hate to say this, but I detect a clear double standard with regards to Riley/Buffy and Willow/Oz. While no one has any issues with Oz taking Willow back after her cheating, most of the fandom blames Riley (completely) for the breakup. This despite the fact that Oz wasn't to blame for Willow's affair with Xander, whereas Riley seeking out those vamp whores was a result of Buffy shutting him out (again, not a justification, but a reason for his behavior). And I'd argue that vamp whoring is a lesser offense than if he had cheated on her in a conventional way.

Willow gave Oz time like he said he needed. If she had straight up told him, "forgive me or else" no way in heck would I have agreed with it. In fact, I'm firmly on Oz's side when he, more or less, confronts her in The Wish.

Besides, IMO, risking your life like a moron is way worse than two people kissing because they have genuine feelings for each other. Not to mention, Willow didn't try to make it seem like it was Oz's fault, which Riley clearly does to Buffy even when he says he isn't.

Saying "It's not your fault, but I did it because you did this and this and that." pretty much means "It is your fault."

 

[The Unspoken]

Willow gave Oz time like he said he needed. If she had straight up told him, "forgive me or else" no way in heck would I have agreed with it. In fact, I'm firmly on Oz's side when he, more or less, confronts her in The Wish.

Riley isn't asking for insta-forgiveness, he's asking whether or not she has the ability to let him in, which she has failed to do prior to this episode. Buffy's forgiveness is something he's going to have work for, but that's separate from the issue of whether or not Buffy can let him in.

Besides, IMO, risking your life like a moron is way worse than two people kissing because they have genuine feelings for each other.

It was established fairly well that Riley wasn't in any mortal danger.
Since those feelings were not genuine enough for Willow to break off her relationship with Oz, they can in no way be a justification for her cheating. And judging from how Buffy refers to Riley's transgression, she obviously considers it a lesser offense than 'conventional' cheating.

Not to mention, Willow didn't try to make it seem like it was Oz's fault, which Riley clearly does to Buffy even when he says he isn't.

Saying "It's not your fault, but I did it because you did this and this and that." pretty much means "It is your fault."

Willow is entitled to ask Oz for forgiveness, but Riley isn't allowed to offer Buffy a chance to work through their issues while owning up to his mistakes? There's that double standard again.

Heck, when Willow asks forgiveness, even Oz accuses her of doing it to make her feel better about herself.

 

[Jules]

I'm neutral.

I feel that they both equally had a part in the break up. Yes, Buffy's the Slayer and she was dealing with saving the world and loosing her mum, but when your in a relationship your meant to lean on that person for support. Their your best friend. And I know Buffy's personality tends to mean she wants to go it alone, but she's made exceptions in the past, most notably letting Willow and Xander in to deal with the burden of Slaying. So you can understand Riley feeling insignificant.

However, that doesnt give Riley the excuse to find that fulfillment elsewhere. Its cheating. He should have made Buffy listen to his concerns and if he wasnt happy he should have ended it.

So they both didnt help the situation.

 

[Kana]

When he chooses to leave and not work things out, then yes. I do see that as a huge mistake. I know Riley is a good person deep down. 🙂 It doesn't mean I have to like some of his choices though and the way he handles things. People can feel that way toward any character and I feel that way toward Riley.

I think he wanted to work things out but Buffy couldn't see past the apparent blame cycle, when it wasn't really about that. That was on Buffy. I wished Buffy didn't take Riley for granted, but I don't hold it against her. I just kind of wish they reached each other.

This is one of the reasons why I hated Bangel more as I watched Buffy's relationship with Riley. Buffy was hurt when Angel broke-up with her and left. She tried to move on with Parker, and we all know how that turned out. As such, I felt Buffy took caution when it came to Riley. Her heart was broken when Angel left and the first guy she thought she was really opening up to and then slept with didn't return the feelings in anyway. Like I said, I can't blame Buffy for maybe taking it slow when it came to Riley because of what she's been through in the past. It doesn't mean though that there was no love because I do think Buffy loved Riley as shown by some of her actions. She still opened up to him and trusted him.

But she also pushed him away cut him out of most aspects of her life. I know she didn't mean to do this, but I;m just trying to get you to see it from his perspective.

As I said before, I think Xander helped Buffy realize that she did love him, enough to see a future with him. If Buffy got there in time before Riley took off, I really think Buffy would have told Riley that she loved him.

I think so too. 🙂.

Yes, there were no bad guys. Just a good guy who made stupid decisions, stupid rationales, which I hate. 🙂

And a great girl who took a good guy for granted. I'm just saying that there were mistakes made in that relationship but they weren't all Riley's.

 

[LadyLavinia]

This thread is going into eight pages. Why bother arguing over who was responsible for the breakup? The series made it obvious that both Buffy and Riley were guilty. I suspect that both of them realized that they each made mistakes. Why do we need to point fingers of guilt at a certain character, when both of them got over the breakup and manage to remain friends?

What is it about our psyche that we need to point fingers at either Buffy or Riley for the breakup?

 

[brinkster130]

This thread is going into eight pages. Why bother arguing over who was responsible for the breakup? The series made it obvious that both Buffy and Riley were guilty. I suspect that both of them realized that they each made mistakes. Why do we need to point fingers of guilt at a certain character, when both of them got over the breakup and manage to remain friends?

What is it about our psyche that we need to point fingers at either Buffy or Riley for the breakup?

Just having some friendly debates. I always find it interesting to look at things from a different point of view.

 

[Hawkbrother]

I have just watched Into the Woods again, and my conclusion is that Riley, while a nice enough guy, suffers from feelings of insecurity. Like he feels that maybe Buffy does not need him, or need him to protect her. That maybe he doesnt measure up, certainly not to Angel. And Spike feeds these doubts of his.
In a nutshell, its the typical scenario of a male feeling threatened by a strong, independent woman. Not willing to accept that Buffy had certain parts of her life that were hers alone, and that he should give her space.
What , really, did he hope to prove by getting involved with vampires and letting them feed off him? To show Buffy that he was not afraid to risk his life? As some sort of an answer,of getting back at her for her relationship with Angel?
Buffy saw some of his actions as possessive, something she would want no part of. He wants more than she is willing to give.
it is best he left. If she had convinced him to stay, he would have been torn between what he felt was his duty to his military buddies, and what he felt for her. Their conflict would have continued.
And truth is I like Buffy best when she accepts that she does not need a man in her life to make her complete. To be the strong hero that she is, that heroes are generally, even if it means being alone.

 

[Ms.Trick]

The blame lies both sides, but it's one of the rare times I find it difficult to really side with Buffy.


Objectively, Riley's fault is to not be really able to handle the fact he's dating a strong woman who doesn't need him (but wants him) and to find confort in vampwhores.
Buffy's fault is to shut down and lie to herself. She claims to love Riley. I know she did, but she'll never love him as much as she loved Angel. When she says to Riley "I gave you my heart, body and soul", I don't think she really gave it all, you know? She didn't love him with all her soul like she loved Angel (and I'm not a Bangel, it's just a fact, Buffy will never love more than she loved Angel).

But, things would have been different if Riley had talked about it to Buffy. Instead, he let the problem grow and made his reproaches too late.

I understand that Buffy had no time for Riley, I really do. She had to take care of her sister and her mother and be the Slayer and all grown-up. Talk about pressure! But I think the problem doesn't lie there. Xander was right in his speech. I always thought that.

Xander: But you missed the point. You shut down, Buffy. And you've been treating Riley like the rebound guy. When he's the one that comes along once in a lifetime. He's never held back with you. He's risked everything. And you're about to let him fly because you don't like ultimatums? If he's not the guy, if what he needs from you just isn't there, let him go. Break his heart, and make it a clean break. But if you really think you can love this guy... I'm talking scary, messy, no-emotions-barred need... if you're ready for that... then think about what you're about to lose.

Riley was far from perfect. But he was the best boyfriend Buffy could have had. No soul-issues, no drama. Okay sometimes he was dull, and most of the time annoying, but I think he was good for Buffy. With Riley, things were easy, he loved her so much he would always be there. And Buffy threated him like that. Like the guy who would always be there. The guy who repairs a bit her broken heart. Riley was a good boyfriend for Buffy, but she took him for granted. At the beginning of the relationship we see she really cares about him, but in the end? He's just "the boyfriend" and nothing more.

In my opinion, Riley's biggest fault was to not talk to Buffy about this earlier. And yeah, go seeing the whores, not a bright idea.

Was even less of bright idea is to say "I went to the whores because I didn't feel loved. By the way, I'm leaving tonight, unless you want me to stay".

And Buffy didn't see that coming at all. She genuinely thought everything was fine. So finding out that your boyfriend was seeing the whores while you had to take her of your family and that he leaves tonight, wow, kind of a lot of shocks to go through in a short time.
I understand that it made her mad, but before that, Riley had never really done anything bad. I think the problem is, Buffy had been hurt a lot by Angel. Then she trusted Parker and was hurt again. She trusted Riley and didn't expect him to betray her. And I think that if she hadn't been hurt so bad before, she maybe would have forgiven Riley more easily. I kind of have the feeling that she was so mad because he was supposed to be drama-less and he brought drama after all, at the worst time possible.
And she couldn't see her own fault, because she was so certain she was doing everything right. I think she was partly mad because she was in denial. Hard to believe she was not really a good girlfriend, and being accused of that by the guy who just betrayed you...All she could see was "he betrayed me", not "I wasn't all right either". And also "he betrayed me and gives me an ultimatum". She was too mad to think objectively.

I kind of get lost in my own thoughts, but my point is: Riley should have communicated about he felt instead of letting things getting worst, and Buffy should have treated him more like a boyfriend and not like mister Dependable.
And when I look at their fight scene, I can't help but think "Oh, come on" at Buffy.

It's like the relationship was just not meant to be.

 

[Professor Walsh]

This thread is going into eight pages. Why bother arguing over who was responsible for the breakup?

It's like the relationship was just not meant to be.

A lot of people seem to think that this relationship didn't have the potential to last. (Not that relationships ever last forever in the Whedonverse, but that's another cuppa tea.) If that is the case, this shifting of blame strikes me as really meaningless. It's like deciding whether to blame the water or the sand for the sand sinking to the bottom rather than dissolving in the water. There are a lot of factors that need to work out for a relationship to last.

 

[LizzieRainbow]

Im neutral with this. It takes two people to make a relationship work and i feel that if Buffy and Riley both wanted to make they relationship work they would have tried harder but none of them really seemed to have their hearts into it. I feel they were both to blame for their relationship disintegrating.