Whoa. Well, I bet you were all wondering why I hadn't yet inserted myself aggressively into this discussion yet, eh? (Just trying to live up to my title.)
Honestly, I'm really not sure where I stand on this issue. Its so complicated.
Now, before I attempt to answer white avenger's original question
My question is, knowing how Buffy felt about Spike, knowing that she believed him lost to her forever, should Angel, as a caring friend, have tried to contact Buffy to tell her that Spike was back? And if not, why not?
i'd like to say that I will try very hard to not let my "Spuffyness" bias my answer. Of course, nothing would make me more happy than for a happy Spuffy reunion to take place, but I will try to remain objective.
Ok, here I go.
I think you've all made some great points. A few I choose to comment on:
Personally, I think that if Angel cared as much for Buffy as he claimed to, he would have felt obligated to at least put forth the effort of telling her and easing at least that portion of her grief at the loss of friends and loved ones in the battle. Not doing so seems to me to be an act of pure jealousy or another instance if Angel's bad habit of making decisions for others without consulting them first.
You make a valid point, but I think you overestimate Angel. I don't doubt that he cares for her very much, but he sees Spike as a threat, or as you out it, he was jealous.
On the other hand, though, consider this point made by Flannen:
You can't lay the blame on Angel here for what Spike should have done.
Honestly, I think this might sum up the entire argument. While browsing through this thread, this seems to be what everyone agrees on.
So Spike was a ghost and being dragged into Hell. True. I think we can all agree that Spike had every intention to return to her until BAM he realizes he couldn't. Leave, that is. At that point, he was more then free to call her. And he didn't (assuming, obviously, that her cell survived the destruction of Sunnydale.)
In fact, if you are suggesting that this is Angel making decisions for people again, I would have to completely disagree. If Angel had have told Buffy about Spike being alive, THAT would have been making decisions for people. He would have been making the decision for Spike, when the ball was entirely in his court. So, no, Angel should absolutely not have intervened in this instance, regardless of how much he cared for Buffy.
Well why Spike didn't called her herself. It's not Angels job. What would he say? "Hello biggest love of my life your dead lover is back to life!". It's not Angel's place.
Princess Buffy makes a good point. It would have been awkward BUT if you love someone, if there was any way, wouldn't you reduce their suffering?
Or, as white avenger stated far more eloquently;
If he knew, as he almost certainly did, that she was mourning all of the casualties from Sunnydale, he would no doubt have also known that finding out that one of the ones whose death she felt responsible for was, in fact, not dead (or as "not dead" as a vampire could possibly be) would have eased at least a part of her pain. That's not interfering, that's being a friend.
This is a great point I think deserves some thought. Sure, you could say that Angel "dismissed" the importance of Spike in Buffy's life, but
come on Angel knew what Spike meant to her ("˜He's in my heart.')
But Spike also hated Angel which is why I think that if it had been the other way around Spike wouldn't have interfered either.
This is also a highly valid point. But we'll never know, will we? If Angel had died now, in L.A. fighting alongside Spike, would Spike call Buffy up and tell her the bad news? Who knows. We'll probably never know.
As wa says;
My assertion is that, if he is so intent upon easing the pain and suffering of those people who he cares for, why, in this case, when doing so would have almost certainly been appreciated by those concerned, did he fail to do so?
Like..when Willow called Cordy to inform A.I. of Buffy's death in "˜The Gift'?
As she says below,
...when Buffy came back from the dead Willow phoned Cordy and informed AI
Surely, Willow did this not because she had any obligation too, but because Spike was her friend and she wanted to decrease his pain. How is this any different then if Angel had chosen to call Buffy to tell her Spike was alive? So basically, you can't believe that Angel shouldn't have told Buffy about Spike if you believe that Willow was in the right to tell Angel about Buffy when she was brought back. Get what I'm saying?
Spike has been unwilling to inform Buffy,he had the chance with Andrew but he didn't order him to do so...what does Angel has to do with that?
If I understand correctly, people are arguing over not why SPIKE didn't tell Buffy he was alive after he became corporeal (we already know his reasoning behind that) BUT why Angel didn't tell her immediately when Spike was still a ghost "“ correct?
If Angel's mission is to help the helpless, or hopeless, why couldn't he have helped poor helpless, incorporeal Spike, and, at the same time, given hope to poor, grieving Buffy, who had given up hope of ever seeing someone who she said that she loved?
Fair enough, but does Angel know Buffy loves Spike? I don't believe Spike ever told Angel that Buffy told him that. I could be wrong.
*goes to look over transcripts*
Or maybe not calling Buffy actually WAS his decision.
Surely, it crossed his mind. I guess he dismissed it rather quickly.
Come to think of it, both Spike and Angel, despite acting in exactly the opposite way, managed to achieve the same result. They kept Buffy away from someone who she loved For her own good, of course. Kind of ironic, when you look at it that way.
Perhaps the two are more alike than we like to admit. Irony is Joss' specialty.
I doubt Angel would have told Spike considering he didn't even tell the Burkles what happened to Fred"¦
Excellent point. Forgot about that. Perhaps that was Angel's decision as well, as to not upset the Burkles. Yet, was it really his place?
As for Spike doing the same? Well he admitted that if he could, he'd keep Buffy away from Angel.
There's that shiny irony white avenger spoke of earlier.
Anyway the only way Buffy could have seen incorporeal Spike is if she went to W&H and I doubt that Angel wanted her near that place despite his unconvincing company line. More than anything I doubt he wanted Buffy to see him in that position.
Agreed. Angel did have his own personal reasons for not calling Buffy. The question is, shouldn't he be thinking of Buffy's welfare before his own? Besides, I doubt Buffy would have come down there. She was busy, but she surely would have wanted to chat with Spike on the phone, perhaps talked to Fred about how it was coming along with making him corporeal, and then demanded once it was possible, to have him come to Rome and see her.
Once Spike is capable of seeing her it's an issue between the two of them.
I think I agree with this statement. It's hard not too.
I agree that if anyone were to inform Buffy of Spike's return, it should have been Spike himself. But that doesn't mean Angel's choice to stay out of this one wasn't motivated by pure jealousy.
Yep. *shakes head*
He picks and chooses which situations to get involved with depending on how much of Buffy's "happiness" and "well being" benefits him as well.
Paramour, I agree with your entire post, but this above line I thought was particularly true.
Angel is only "human." He is motivated by jealousy at times, and perhaps this was one of those instances.
"¦but, hey, couldn't he dictate an e-mail?
Well, not to nitpick, but I doubt Buffy had email in the castle.
As to why Angel didn't tell Buffy, well, I think its because he doesn't actually know where Buffy is. You watch his body language in that opening scene of Just Rewards. Spike asks after Buffy, "Europe, last I heard from her" is all the information Angel gives. He looks sideways, shifts his eyes as one does when they are trying to get away with misinformation or trying to seem more knowledgeable than they actually are. Could it be that Angel and Buffy have not communicated in the intervening nineteen days since the destruction of Sunnydale? Has Angel already got his Wolfram and Hart resources trying to track her moves? Is it possible he knows as little of Buffy's movements as Spike currently does?
This is worth considering. It's definitely likely that Angel did not know about Buffy's whereabouts at that point.
Asking this is no different than asking why Andrew didn't tell Buffy about Spike. Or maybe he has, and we just don't know it yet.
No way. It totally is. Andrew was sworn to secrecy. Spike specifically asked him not to tell Buffy about him. Andrew is a man of his word, apparently. Besides, I think he's kind of scared of Spike. No way he's going to betray that trust.
He's basically in love with Spike. No way he wants to be on his bad side.
This may be true, but so what? Spike would have done exactly the same thing if it was the other way round. So the guy let himself be ruled by his emotions for a while?
We don't know if Spike would have done the same thing in this situation. And while yes, Angel is entitled to be "ruled" by his emotions at times, in this instance, perhaps Buffy's pain was more important then his?
I just get the impression that for some people Angel just can't win. He's berated for interfering and then berated when he decides not to get involved in something.
We hold the characters he love, heroes, to a high standard. I don't want you to think that we are singling out Angel; if Buffy had done this, we'd be arguing about it as well.
Angel can win, and does. There have been decisions he's made that I agree with. For instance, the decision him and Spike made in "˜The Hole in the World' to allow Fred to die to save countless others. Yes, they
did make this decision for Fred, but I am sure it's what she would have wanted.
And also, is no-one thinking of The Immortal? Maybe Spike would have found the time to tell Buffy, if he hadn't found out that something was going on between the Immortal and Buffy.
Well, wasn't this the reason they decided to finally "give up"? After seeing she'd "moved on"?
You mean like ignoring Spike's request and divulging information he specifically doesn't want revealed?
I think that white avenger was referring to BEFORE Spike decided he didn't want Buffy to know he was back.
If you look at it, Angel had a lot of crap to worry about"¦
True, but in theory, he had time to pick up the phone, didn't he?
So really with Angel being a little busy trying to run an inter-dimensional evil law firm and Spike being unreliable (a.k.a. taking brief trips to hell) then actively not wanting to tell her, Angel is in the clear.
When oh when will you stop your war on poor Angel.
Good point.
War? Nah. We're just discussing, my friend. Harmless fun.
I ask: When will people end the war on Spike? When will people forgive him for what happened in 'Seeing Red', seeing as how Buffy obviously has? etc etc
Honestly, if he had have got involved and been the one to tell Buffy, the Spuffy consensus would be that Angel was totally out of order for being the one to break the 'good news' (pfft) and not let Spike be the one to tell her.
Again, great point. Who knows though, since that isn't the case.
Which is still what this comes down to? Do you honestly think the real problem is that Angel didn't tell her? When it clearly is, for most part of the responses in this thread, Spike's call and Spike's only.
And like Wesley said, Angel had his own war to wage, why would he be waste time concerning himself in a situation between two people who would probably both be pissed at him for getting involved in.
Well, why would he waste his time? For the purpose that it might make Buffy feel better, I think. To know her friend Spike was alive,
just like when Angel called Buffy after he found out she was alive.
My opinion is that even though it wasn't Angel's "place" to tell her- Spike should have gotten in touch with her himself to tell her- but it seemed out of character. Angel has a history of butting into Buffy's life because he feels he has to protect her to some extent. I honestly thought it was weird that he didn't tell her, even if he shouldn't have. Does that make sense? But then again, I understand why he wouldn't want to, knowing Spike and Buffy had "gotten pelvic". AWKWARD
Yes, it did seem out of character to a point. Perhaps what wa said is true "“ perhaps Angel did consider telling Buffy and then dismissed it, thinking she'd be "better off" without knowing.
Again, I don't think the possibly of the situation becoming awkward should be a deterrent. You think it wasn't difficult for Willow to tell Cordy Buffy was dead?
Well, now that you've all has the displeasure of having to read my incredibly long commentary, I will attempt to arrive at my own stance on this issue.
I think"¦.after some thought, that it wasn't Angel's place to call Buffy and tell her that Spike was alive. Yet, this doesn't mean he is in the clear. He still could have done it, as we all know Angel believes "rules" are meant to be broken
😉 As to why Angel didn't tell her (didn't know where she was, didn't care, jealousy, whatever) that's open to interpretation.
Spike is to blame for Buffy know knowing he is alive. Plain and simple.
Or to be completely honest; the writers are. Bad move on their part. It was completely out of character for Spike to not go to Buffy once he was corporeal, but as wa mentioned, they needed him on the show.
