Should Faith had been given a stronger much older Watcher?

[Joshua]

Do you think if Faith had a stronger, much more experienced older Watcher like Giles was (excluding Miss Post) would she had turned? Do you think Wesley being a newly trained Watcher is part of the reason Faith turned? I mean Giles would have never have let Buffy be corrupted by The Mayor

 

[Buffy Summers]

Maybe if she had felt truly cared for by her Watcher, but I'm not sure there really was enough time for them to create that bond before Faith went down the bad girl path.

 

[Lyri]

Faith went down the bad girl path whenever she lost her original Watcher. Remember, she had a Watcher before Wesley, one she watched die in front of her, which made yet another person who left Faith high and dry with no one to care about. She went to Sunnydale, thinking she would have a ready made relationship with Buffy, her sister Slayer, but instead she was treated like an interloper, someone who was trying to take Buffy's rightful place.

Faith went down the dark path because she literally had no one in the world who wanted her around. Except the Mayor.

 

[Wildfly]

The mayor was awesome, truly cared for faith who was an outsider among the scoobies. If the mayor was her watcher and a good guy, or if gwen was her real watcher faith would've never deserted. She accepted their authority.

She reminds me of jayne from firefly. Can swing both ways, needs a charismatic example to follow. I liked Kendra and Nikki much better.

 

[thetopher]

I think the way Faith responded to Mrs Post and also her defence of Giles ('Giles is okay') shows that even in Sunnydale Faith was willing to take orders and cooperate initially. She wanted some guidance and for somebody to care about her. Like, say a Watcher.

It was only after Post's betrayal that she gave up on people, she wasn't around enough (not was she particularly wanted)- going walkabout or unreachable- and really only cared about being around Buffy post-'Amends'.
Later Wesley's incompetence and Giles seeming indifference (because he was no longer a Watcher) just hurried the process along. I doubt an older, wiser Watcher would've been successful.

 

[Samuel Reyes]

Faith is implied to have already had serious issues with authority/parental figures due to her abusive childhood. Every time something bad happened to her it was like hitting the nail in the coffin -- she got more cynical and distrusting with each one. Her original Watcher died at the hands of Kakistos, then Post betrayed her, and finally Wesley screwing up was the last straw. Faith was like a time bomb waiting to go off - had her first Watcher lasted longer I don't think Faith would have turned.

 

[mackenzie99]

I think Faith was a bit uncomfortable with being close to a man,without it being sex because of her childhood experiences with men. So I think a good female watcher would have been more sweet to Faith.

 

[Samuel Reyes]

I always thought Jenny Calendar would've been the perfect 'Watcher' for Faith. They were both very down-to-earth and didn't take BS from anyone.

 

[Wildfly]

@Blaze the double entendre wasn't unintentional. I mean, c'mon, its Faith 😉

 

[SB4thewannabes]

Her first watcher was a woman, she got on with her. Mrs Post was a woman, she was doing well with her until that fell apart. She was supposed to be the 'other half' of Buffy, and she did well with the male Watchers. Giles could have filled the job, but he essentially ignored her, apparently being the surrogate father to one Slayer was enough for him. Essentially she needed someone who was fully commited to her, and whom she could trust. Sadly all those who should have done that chose not to, and the only 'person' who did give her that was the Big Bad.

 

[Mr Trick]

I think Faith was a bit uncomfortable with being close to a man,without it being sex because of her childhood experiences with men. So I think a good female watcher would have been more sweet to Faith.

I think there is a lot to that idea, and actually it would have made for a very interesting viewing. Maybe if first they had had a Faith female watcher opposing Buffy/Giles type of deal, and then later have done the Faith mayor thing, and in that case kept Faith around into season four (which I doubt many people would complain about) then I think it would have worked. Also that way we lose a lot of the crap from that season😉

I always thought Jenny Calendar would've been the perfect 'Watcher' for Faith. They were both very down-to-earth and didn't take BS from anyone.

I do like this idea, I guess the only doubt I have is that Jenny has a slightly different background and I'm not sure if she knows enough to be a watcher. Also, there's that idea a Watcher has to be able to engage in battle should the need come, although Jenny did do that a couple of times not really on the scale of Giles.

 

[weaker slayer]

Her first watcher was a woman, she got on with her. Mrs Post was a woman, she was doing well with her until that fell apart. She was supposed to be the 'other half' of Buffy, and she did well with the male Watchers. Giles could have filled the job, but he essentially ignored her, apparently being the surrogate father to one Slayer was enough for him. Essentially she needed someone who was fully commited to her, and whom she could trust. Sadly all those who should have done that chose not to, and the only 'person' who did give her that was the Big Bad.

True, but the goal was to push Faith out as the weaker slayer and as the one that should be left alone. Before Faith turned bad, Buffy was making clear she was the only true slayer. Buffy Summers never got to the idea that more then one slayer was important until the end of season seven by accepting thousands of women can be slayers.

Do you recall the slayer ax? Buffy and Faith could use the power of that ax. When Faith was recovering from her fighting, Buffy let her hold the ax for a few minutes. Then Faith went on the point that true were both slayers but it must be yours alone. Even with all the conflict with Buffy and Faith, it was not till the end of Sunnydale that Buffy came to the idea. Hey Willow, lets make a spell and make all the women that can be slayers into slayers.

I agree with you. Still, back then Buffy and her supporters could never really accept two or more slayers. So, were could Faith really do.

 

[Mr Trick]

I think ultimately maybe it was decided that it made for more interesting viewing if Faith opposed Buffy than work with her, because of their distinct differences. I guess what better opposition than another Slayer who could match up very strongely to Buffy. It maybe a bit of a missed opportunity than later we didn't see more of Buffy adn Faith working together?

 

[weaker slayer]

I think ultimately maybe it was decided that it made for more interesting viewing if Faith opposed Buffy than work with her, because of their distinct differences. I guess what better opposition than another Slayer who could match up very strongely to Buffy. It maybe a bit of a missed opportunity than later we didn't see more of Buffy adn Faith working together?

In my judgment, I do not see female fans begging to see two women fight each other to see who may be stronger then the other. My judgment, it was to keep the male fan base watching the series when they can see two women fight each other. It was the same back in the 1990's as it is with this decade. Women fighting sells movie tickets and eyes on the screen. Women rather work out a problem if they have to be with each other. True, there are times of stress between two women in a working relationship.

True, it is cute watching them fight each other. Or, as a woman watching women fight each other within movies. Still, I find them to be a fantasy I and other women are interested in. There is a difference between a fantasy and a lifestyle.

 

[Mr Trick]

In my judgment, I do not see female fans begging to see two women fight each other to see who may be stronger then the other. My judgment, it was to keep the male fan base watching the series when they can see two women fight each other. It was the same back in the 1990's as it is with this decade. Women fighting sells movie tickets and eyes on the screen. Women rather work out a problem if they have to be with each other. True, there are times of stress between two women in a working relationship.

True, it is cute watching them fight each other. Or, as a woman watching women fight each other within movies. Still, I find them to be a fantasy I and other women are interested in. There is a difference between a fantasy and a lifestyle.

I could not disagree more and I think you are stereotyping males there. True, many men do go for that sort of thing, but I'm not one of them. The reason I got engaged with the Buffy VS. Faith narrative is because I liked the characters and the direction of the storyline, and the twist of Faith working for the Mayor. And bearing in mind the power which the show gave females I think you are way off base in suggesting than that had anything to do with it.

 

[SB4thewannabes]

True, but the goal was to push Faith out as the weaker slayer and as the one that should be left alone. Before Faith turned bad, Buffy was making clear she was the only true slayer. Buffy Summers never got to the idea that more then one slayer was important until the end of season seven by accepting thousands of women can be slayers.

I would dispute the term 'weaker', but would certainly say they considered her (or at least she thought they considered her) not as good as Buffy, second best and only there when they needed grunt work done.

Do you recall the slayer ax? Buffy and Faith could use the power of that ax. When Faith was recovering from her fighting, Buffy let her hold the ax for a few minutes. Then Faith went on the point that true were both slayers but it must be yours alone. Even with all the conflict with Buffy and Faith, it was not till the end of Sunnydale that Buffy came to the idea. Hey Willow, lets make a spell and make all the women that can be slayers into slayers.

Faith made the point that it felt like hers, but must be Buffy's because whilst she (Faith) was technically The (official) Slayer, Buffy still being alive and 'first' would always have first claim everything that was meant to be hers.

I agree with you. Still, back then Buffy and her supporters could never really accept two or more slayers. So, were could Faith really do.

Faith had problems with authority, everyone who had ever had authority over her had either died or abused it somehow, where as Buffy had Giles, friends, and a relavitely stable life, and school. Faith was basically left to her own devices until they needed extra muscle and as such, never really 'fit' with the Scoobies, barely being around them meaning they couldn't really grow a friendship. Both parties at fault there, Faith could easily have returned to school, and everyone could have included her more (and I put the blame squarely with Giles for her living in the crappy motel, which clearly didn't help control her wild side) and we get to see what it could have been like in Amends when Buffy actually opens her home to her, and Faith lets down her walls, but again, after that you get Giles losing her trust and obviously the defining moment with her accidentally staking Finch, and being unable to deal with that.
 

I could not disagree more and I think you are stereotyping males there. True, many men do go for that sort of thing, but I'm not one of them. The reason I got engaged with the Buffy VS. Faith narrative is because I liked the characters and the direction of the storyline, and the twist of Faith working for the Mayor. And bearing in mind the power which the show gave females I think you are way off base in suggesting than that had anything to do with it.

Exactly this. The Buffy and Faith situation was a tragedy waiting to happen. It wasn't a case of if, just when and how, and what got damaged in the process.

 

[bespangeled]

I think the way Faith responded to Mrs Post and also her defence of Giles ('Giles is okay') shows that even in Sunnydale Faith was willing to take orders and cooperate initially. She wanted some guidance and for somebody to care about her. Like, say a Watcher.

Wesley, at that stage, would not have been a decent watcher for Kendra. But then they made it through to Orpheus, so I have happy feelings.

Faith is implied to have already had serious issues with authority/parental figures due to her abusive childhood. Every time something bad happened to her it was like hitting the nail in the coffin -- she got more cynical and distrusting with each one. Her original Watcher died at the hands of Kakistos, then Post betrayed her, and finally Wesley screwing up was the last straw. Faith was like a time bomb waiting to go off - had her first Watcher lasted longer I don't think Faith would have turned.

I think Faith was a bit uncomfortable with being close to a man,without it being sex because of her childhood experiences with men. So I think a good female watcher would have been more sweet to Faith.

Why is fanon so determined that Faith was abused? Is not growing up white and suburban equal to abuse? Faith was a street-wise, cynical urban kid who ended up in the dystopia of suburban high school. She gave it a try, but realized early on that she was being treated like a bad skin disease with poor hygiene. Buff and the Scoobs laid down the line - you wanna be accepted as one of us - well turn into Wonder Bread then. Sorry- but one of the things I like most about Faith is how quickly she picked it up because she knew it would happen - that attitude - and how she refused to give into it. Yes, she went too far, but I'm really glad she didn't compromise herself in other ways.

Faith had problems with authority, everyone who had ever had authority over her had either died or abused it somehow, where as Buffy had Giles, friends, and a relavitely stable life, and school. Faith was basically left to her own devices until they needed extra muscle and as such, never really 'fit' with the Scoobies, barely being around them meaning they couldn't really grow a friendship. Both parties at fault there, Faith could easily have returned to school, and everyone could have included her more (and I put the blame squarely with Giles for her living in the crappy motel, which clearly didn't help control her wild side) and we get to see what it could have been like in Amends when Buffy actually opens her home to her, and Faith lets down her walls, but again, after that you get Giles losing her trust and obviously the defining moment with her accidentally staking Finch, and being unable to deal with that.

Faith could have put on her suburban good-girl panties and played loyal mascot to the Scoobs, or she could have valued her own set of life skills and her own personality. Given that this is Faith, I imagine she never packed that pair of panties. I think she is awesome, and I love the fact that she won't change to white bread and mayo when she gets thrown into suburban mores. She has hard won skills and wisdom that no one even tries to see - she is not defective or broken but I am damn sure she expected to be seen as such.

 

[SB4thewannabes]

Faith could have put on her suburban good-girl panties and played loyal mascot to the Scoobs, or she could have valued her own set of life skills and her own personality.

It's not a plain either/or choice, there were possibilities for both sides to compromise without giving up their basic motivations.

Given that this is Faith, I imagine she never packed that pair of panties.

Given it's Faith I think we can imagine she probably never packed any at all.

I think she is awesome, and I love the fact that she won't change to white bread and mayo when she gets thrown into suburban mores.

Absolutely, but throughout series three you can see she wants to be accepted, to trust and be trusted by them.

She has hard won skills and wisdom that no one even tries to see - she is not defective or broken but I am damn sure she expected to be seen as such.

She was damaged goods when she first arrived in Sunnydale, without a doubt repairable, but unarguably damaged. Throughout the series she was always one step forward, two steps back when it came to relationships and authority. Absolutely no doubt she had skills/wisdom, but, as you say, no one bothered to look.

Why is fanon so determined that Faith was abused?

She grew up in a very poor area, rarely if ever getting things she wanted (toys, pets), non-existant father, drunk mother who was referred to as having beaten her pre-calling. During the series there are few if any references to her age (we now know ahe was a couple of months older than Buffy), but all we had to go on before was that she dropped out of high school which, in Boston can be at 16, and given her use 'em and lose 'em attitude to men, she has clearly been in relationships where she knew she was being used just for sex. Even if there has been no actual non-consensual abuse in that area, it would still be considered statutory rape.

 

[bespangeled]

It's not a plain either/or choice, there were possibilities for both sides to compromise without giving up their basic motivations.

Love to hear more on this one - what would the Scoobies have changed about themselves to make them worthy of having Faith as a friend?

Given it's Faith I think we can imagine she probably never packed any at all.

😀😉

Absolutely, but throughout series three you can see she wants to be accepted, to trust and be trusted by them.

I think she saw early on that the price was gonna be too high. And I think Faith is pragmatic and knows what she is willing to pay. It was obvious from the moment she arrived that she was gonna face this kind of pressure, had met it before, and had limited patience. Yes, she wanted safety, friends, a bit of guidance but she found none of those there, and she moved on.

She was damaged goods when she first arrived in Sunnydale, without a doubt repairable, but unarguably damaged. Throughout the series she was always one step forward, two steps back when it came to relationships and authority. Absolutely no doubt she had skills/wisdom, but, as you say, no one bothered to look.

Not inarguable, at all. I completely argue - she was not damaged goods. Unless we want to make Buffy severely damaged every time she was afraid. She liked her Watcher - saw her murdered and knew the killer was coming after her so she went to the only safety the council offered. That is not damaged. We'll get to the rest next paragraph, but I would argue the nature of humanity (and drama) is one step forward and two steps back. It's kinda what makes Harmony dull. Look at all the arcs - the interesting characters all had lessons they need to learn. Damage is incredibly relative - frankly I would call Wesley badly damaged at that time.

She grew up in a very poor area, rarely if ever getting things she wanted (toys, pets), non-existant father, drunk mother who was referred to as having beaten her pre-calling. During the series there are few if any references to her age (we now know ahe was a couple of months older than Buffy), but all we had to go on before was that she dropped out of high school which, in Boston can be at 16, and given her use 'em and lose 'em attitude to men, she has clearly been in relationships where she knew she was being used just for sex. Even if there has been no actual non-consensual abuse in that area, it would still be considered statutory rape.

By suburban standards she is just a mess, agreed. It's in the way she walks, the way she dresses, the way she talks, and everything she says. That is why they turn their backs on her. She is the bad-girl-victim-other that most suburban moms are protecting their kids from. Parker would have been more acceptable, because she was judged on her packaging and he had the right packaging.

Please don't say that growing up poor is handicap - because I think that growing up rich is far worse for any sort of true moral development. It leads too often to an overwhelming sense of entitlement. There are tons of kids with non existent fathers - they are not broken. A drunk mother who hits her - sucks but you can survive that. Changed yes - broken no. Dropped out of high school - not great, but not broken. I actually know a fair amount of kids who dropped out of high school and are solid people.

As for men - Faith really enjoys sex. I don't know why this is a sign of abuse and being broken but I think that is only in the female world. Her partners don't get that rap. Men who enjoy sex like this - have a strong libido - are not broken. But girls must have been abused if they prefer hot recreational sex to romance and flowers? Disagree - sexist cliche.

Urban kids - kids who live the life Faith led are not broken, in reality. They just look different from the suburban media ideal. They talk differently, dress differently, and have a completely different set of skills and a lot of hard won wisdom. But one important thing they know is that in the eyes of the segment of society that gets to judge, they are trash, damaged good, broken. I am sorry - I have seen this attitude so many times. So they learn to turn away the same way their suburban counterparts do but for far better reason. Faith would have to change way too much to put on that mask and live with it.

Dana was broken. Dru was broken. Faith was not - she just came from a reality that the others had been told was inferior and dangerous.

 

[thetopher]

Unless we want to make Buffy severely damaged every time she was afraid. She liked her Watcher - saw her murdered and knew the killer was coming after her so she went to the only safety the council offered. That is not damaged.

I think the fact that Faith didn't tell anybody what happened indicates the damage. Faith lied about where her Watcher was and about her current circumstances- the girl had trust issues right from the start when it came to Buffy and her friends.
Indoubtably Faith had guilt over what happened to her watcher- imagine if something that horrible had happened to Giles and tell me Buffy wouldn'y have been shocked and guilt-ridden, even back in S1 when they were just starting out.
It's only when Buffy forces her way past Faith's walls (and when she's scared) that Faith trusts her with the truth and Buffy says that Faith did the right thing- that she stayed alive. Then Faith (literally) confronted her demon and incidentally helped Buffy were her own personal ones.