Should Faith had been given a stronger much older Watcher?

[SB4thewannabes]

Undamaged goods don't try to end the world then commit suicide. Faith has been singled out as damaged several times in this thread. The implication there is that the others who she dealt with were not damaged because they lived in a suburban environment rather than an urban one.

No implication whatsoever. You're really clutching at straws with that.

Child Development: Top 7 Affecting Factors | Just-Health.net
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This is just from a quick google. The few studies that list poverty concentrate on stunted physical growth and brain development due to poor diet. By and large there were several other factors with more importance The number one factor brought up is parental substance abuse and/or mental health problems both found in every economic strata, stress which is also found in every strata, and adult attention. Faith had a watcher she had bonded with even if her parents were not the best.

And every single one of those factors in every link you posted are at increased risk of occurring in situations of extreme poverty. Almost all of your own links put economic hardship and the situations that arise from it as the prime cause of problems.

Xander slept outside in spite of the snow to avoid the drunken brawl going on in his house.

The snow is an irrelevance. No where has Xander been claimed to not be damaged in someway.

Yes, and it is impossible to design a study without bias. The source of bias in a study that covers this area would be the expectations and life experience of those who created the study, and the yardstick by which they determine damage or lack thereof.

Again, you seem to dismiss studies because the people who commision them have not experienced the subject of the study. That is a completely backwards way of thinking.

In fact, the subject was developmental problems in the upper income strata. I believe poverty was clearly ruled out as a defining factor.

I have no idea what you are talking about now. You, for no good reason, dismissed poverty as a possible factor in Faith's (and by extension every one else) case and I said it is impossible to so. Development problems in the upper income strata are completely irrelevant to this case, so why bring it up?

Yes, and I object to some of what is being said about her. So I am making my case. Feel free to disagree, but try not to quite as condescending. While you may declare yourself shocked and appalled at what you consider my ignorance, I do in fact have good reason to disagree - both from the studies cited and from life experience.

I do disagree, and have put forth arguments which have been backed up by studies. You have povided links to studies that only go to strengthen my argument, and you are providing personal anecdote as evidence against the weight of studies involving hundreds, if not thousands of subjects.

Synonyms for damaged -
broken
impaired
marred
not working
flawed
fouled up
in poor condition
loused up
messed up
mucked up
out of whack
screwed up
unsound

Not sure what your point is, I'm using damaged in the sense that in some way Faith is clearly not 100% mentally stable, which given her experiences seems to be clear.

 

[bespangeled]

You've repeat the same answers here that you have in each your posts, and don't seem to even have read my earlier responses, IMO. Others can check the links if they are so inclined. Whether or not the factors listed occur in all economic strata is another thing we disagree on. Since your main interest seems to be attacking me for disagreeing with you, there's little chance we can actually communicate. I see no way out of this cycle - so YMMV. 🙁

 

[SB4thewannabes]

You've repeat the same answers here that you have in each post, and don't seem to even have read my earlier responses, IMO. I see no way out of this cycle - so YMMV. 🙁

Because you haven't addressed any of the points I've made.

You claim poverty isn't a defining factor in childhood development when every study made concludes it is a key developmental issue.

You dismiss studies that link poverty to poor child development (all of them) because the people commisioning the studies might not have experienced poverty.

You make irrelevent points about Xander sleeping outside and how rich people are likely to have developmental issues, which is fine, but completely irrelevant to Faiths situation.

You complain about singling Faith out in a topic specifically about Faith.

Through series 3/4 I see her as a windowscreen that came to Sunnydale cracked, by a combination of her pre-calling life and seeing her Watcher brutally murdered infront of her, then running for her life for X amount of time. Once there due to a combination of her own inability/unwillingness and the Scoobies unwillingness the crack never got repaired, and each traumatic event, Mrs Post, Buffy keeping Angel a secret, Wesley, the cruciamentum, and Finch the crack got bigger and bigger. Finally it shattered in the alley in Angel series 1.
 

Since your main interest seems to be attacking me for disagreeing with you.

I haven't attacked you in any way, only your arguments.

 

[weaker slayer]

I could not disagree more and I think you are stereotyping males there. True, many men do go for that sort of thing, but I'm not one of them. The reason I got engaged with the Buffy VS. Faith narrative is because I liked the characters and the direction of the storyline, and the twist of Faith working for the Mayor. And bearing in mind the power which the show gave females I think you are way off base in suggesting than that had anything to do with it.

True, there is a story line with the fall of Faith as you pointed out. Still, a story dealing with two female slayers always working together without any problems would have been a weaker argument to renew the series then having a story line with the comment you made above. Sorry that you feel I was stereotyping males, as I agree that a violent conflict with Buffy and Faith was needed during her time on the series. Was not really happy with the Mayor, but it did work in it's own way.

Still, if Faith was just as good or bad as Buffy, or, more to the point a carbon copy of each other. It would beg the question why do you need two slayers when the series was just designed since the movies and season one that there is only a need of a single slayer. If that was the case, then Buffy and Faith would be only eye candy with only the fans deciding who is better looking. If it was a vote of the two women (Buffy and Faith) as eye candy, I would have to make the judgment that Faith is the winner.

If women fans had to make a choice to be fans of the show during the series running years between two women from time to time fighting each other or being a contest with the fan base to pick who was the best eye candy, My judgment, let them fight each other from time to time. As I and many women, if you gave us two images of two different women and ask who is cuter I would find that depressing.

 

[Mr Trick]

The rich and poor thing is just different.

True, there is a story line with the fall of Faith as you pointed out. Still, a story dealing with two female slayers always working together without any problems would have been a weaker argument to renew the series then having a story line with the comment you made above. Sorry that you feel I was stereotyping males, as I agree that a violent conflict with Buffy and Faith was needed during her time on the series. Was not really happy with the Mayor, but it did work in it's own way.

Still, if Faith was just as good or bad as Buffy, or, more to the point a carbon copy of each other. It would beg the question why do you need two slayers when the series was just designed since the movies and season one that there is only a need of a single slayer. If that was the case, then Buffy and Faith would be only eye candy with only the fans deciding who is better looking. If it was a vote of the two women (Buffy and Faith) as eye candy, I would have to make the judgment that Faith is the winner.

If women fans had to make a choice to be fans of the show during the series running years between two women from time to time fighting each other or being a contest with the fan base to pick who was the best eye candy, My judgment, let them fight each other from time to time. As I and many women, if you gave us two images of two different women and ask who is cuter I would find that depressing.

Well for the Faith character to partly work then they needed to cast an attractive actress because of her highly sexalised nature. I think they wanted the two Slayers to be distinctively different from each other as a visual trope to mark them out as alterantive versions of themselves. Still besides that I think they are both interesting and complex characters. They appeal partly to women because they can kick butt and look good doing it, that is part of the foundation of the show to start with, but there is much more to the Faith/Buffy dynmic than that too. I just don't think that the show is trying to get you compare them on a looks basis.

 

[Faith]

Lets face it, male of female they will cast attractive casts to get the viewers in. What keeps people watching is the depth and range of those characters. Look at Supergirl, an attractive cast but truly awful acting and character writing. So i'd like to have faith that whilst we can all be vapid and like the eye candy there was to be more than that.

Personally I loved it when they fought each other but I also love UFC and watching one woman completely destroy another with hammer fists.

@Mr. Pole Don't even get me started on people claiming UFC is fixed. Rousey is a great groundfighter and one of my favourites as she has a very strong work ethic. This is my issue with BJJ you put them up against a fighter like Holly who is a multi discipline champion in kickboxing and boxing and it is a very different fight. Ronda was chasing her far too much trying to get to thr ground because she knew she didnt have what it takes to go blow to blow. I have no doubt that she and her team are going to work on that and she is going to come back a very different and more dangerous fighter.

 

[Mr Trick]

Lets face it, male of female they will cast attractive casts to get the viewers in. What keeps people watching is the depth and range of those characters. Look at Supergirl, an attractive cast but truly awful acting and character writing. So i'd like to have faith that whilst we can all be vapid and like the eye candy there was to be more than that.

Personally I loved it when they fought each other but I also love UFC and watching one woman completely destroy another with hammer fists.

But all I'm saying is this stereotypical idea of men getting turned on just at the sight of two women fighting is overplayed. Yes, a lot of men still go for that, but I do think people place too much value in it too. And I don't think that was involved in the casting choice when it came to Faith or the direction of the storyline with Buffy. Don't forget Whedon would have played at least some part in the casting or at least his team would have, and it would go totally against their feminist message for them to go in tht direction for thoses reasons.

 

[weaker slayer]

The rich and poor thing is just different.


Well for the Faith character to partly work then they needed to cast an attractive actress because of her highly sexalised nature. I think they wanted the two Slayers to be distinctively different from each other as a visual trope to mark them out as alterantive versions of themselves. Still besides that I think they are both interesting and complex characters. They appeal partly to women because they can kick butt and look good doing it, that is part of the foundation of the show to start with, but there is much more to the Faith/Buffy dynmic than that too. I just don't think that the show is trying to get you compare them on a looks basis.

Look's is a part of life, and both women at that time looked really good to an audience it was looking for. True, most female characters at that time were to be good looking. Still, it was different that Buffy never really had a father and Faith really did not have a family. With Faith, we really did not even know her last name until the series was over with. So, both women came from broken homes.

Still, I feel there had to be a conflict with the women. At that time coming from a broken home life was thought of being a negative. If they were looked as to much as a positive light: you would be begging the right wing of politics to say more negative comments about women growing up without a father figure. In fact, was a little shocked thinking about it: killing Buffy's and Dawn's mother off with a natural death is ... (let's move on).

I think it was required that they kicked butt and partied hard. There fathers did not care.

 

[Faith]

But all I'm saying is this stereotypical idea of men getting turned on just at the sight of two women fighting is overplayed. Yes, a lot of men still go for that, but I do think people place too much value in it too. And I don't think that was involved in the casting choice when it came to Faith or the direction of the storyline with Buffy. Don't forget Whedon would have played at least some part in the casting or at least his team would have, and it would go totally against their feminist message for them to go in tht direction for thoses reasons.

I agree with you, much like I go against the stereotype that women don't like watching women fight each other.

My comment about attractive casting wasn't aimed at your comment, sorry if you thought it was. It was just a generalisation of what I feel happens in TV. I believe that Joss himself would never cast someone on looks alone if he didn't feel they could pull off what he needed them too.

 

[weaker slayer]

Lets face it, male of female they will cast attractive casts to get the viewers in. What keeps people watching is the depth and range of those characters. Look at Supergirl, an attractive cast but truly awful acting and character writing. So i'd like to have faith that whilst we can all be vapid and like the eye candy there was to be more than that.

Personally I loved it when they fought each other but I also love UFC and watching one woman completely destroy another with hammer fists.

INDEED! You do need good charactering acting, and they did so with their issues during their time. Still, I do not see Buffy the Vampire Slayer being green lighted in 2015. Willow and Tara, very passive lesbian characters without a rational reason why they wanted to be lesbians. Buffy and Faith, their personal conflict with each other: Walmart has more women bitching at each other then they did.

 

[Mr Trick]

Look's is a part of life, and both women at that time looked really good to an audience it was looking for. True, most female characters at that time were to be good looking. Still, it was different that Buffy never really had a father and Faith really did not have a family. With Faith, we really did not even know her last name until the series was over with. So, both women came from broken homes.

Still, I feel there had to be a conflict with the women. At that time coming from a broken home life was thought of being a negative. If they were looked as to much as a positive light: you would be begging the right wing of politics to say more negative comments about women growing up without a father figure. In fact, was a little shocked thinking about it: killing Buffy's and Dawn's mother off with a natural death is ... (let's move on).

I think it was required that they kicked butt and partied hard. There fathers did not care.

Well to be fair I never considered that point before. I still don't see much in that, but okay. Even if there is something to that you are kinda backing up my point that its a compelling narrative outside of them just being good looking women who are in powerful positions.
 

I agree with you, much like I go against the stereotype that women don't like watching women fight each other.

My comment about attractive casting wasn't aimed at your comment, sorry if you thought it was. It was just a generalisation of what I feel happens in TV. I believe that Joss himself would never cast someone on looks alone if he didn't feel they could pull off what he needed them too.

Fair enough. And good point!🙂

 

[bespangeled]

Still, if Faith was just as good or bad as Buffy, or, more to the point a carbon copy of each other. It would beg the question why do you need two slayers when the series was just designed since the movies and season one that there is only a need of a single slayer. If that was the case, then Buffy and Faith would be only eye candy with only the fans deciding who is better looking. If it was a vote of the two women (Buffy and Faith) as eye candy, I would have to make the judgment that Faith is the winner.

We tried Buffy as the bad slayer with Kendra, and it didn't really work. I think Faith and Buffy made a far more distinct juxtaposition. Of course, Kendra always seemed kind of throttled, while Faith is definitely out there.

The rich and poor thing is just different.

Precisely my point - thanks.

Look's is a part of life, and both women at that time looked really good to an audience it was looking for. True, most female characters at that time were to be good looking. Still, it was different that Buffy never really had a father and Faith really did not have a family. With Faith, we really did not even know her last name until the series was over with. So, both women came from broken homes.

Still, I feel there had to be a conflict with the women. At that time coming from a broken home life was thought of being a negative. If they were looked as to much as a positive light: you would be begging the right wing of politics to say more negative comments about women growing up without a father figure. In fact, was a little shocked thinking about it: killing Buffy's and Dawn's mother off with a natural death is ... (let's move on).

I think it was required that they kicked butt and partied hard. There fathers did not care.

Those were the tropes of the time.

INDEED! You do need good charactering acting, and they did so with their issues during their time. Still, I do not see Buffy the Vampire Slayer being green lighted in 2015. Willow and Tara, very passive lesbian characters without a rational reason why they wanted to be lesbians. Buffy and Faith, their personal conflict with each other: Walmart has more women bitching at each other then they did.

You need a reason to want to be a lesbian?
Buffy 2015 would need to be far more raw than what we see here. But Faith's arc would probably transfer best if you count the entire arc - including her growth on Angel. Her character still resonates more than that of the other slayers.

 

[Lyri]

BtVS in 2015 would have probably resulted in Joss's original ending for the Faith character in this episode. When Buffy goes to Faith's motel room, instead of finding Faith washing out her shirt, she finds Faith hanging from the ceiling after committing suicide.

 

[SB4thewannabes]

That would have been brutally depressing.

 

[mackenzie99]

Well I don't think we can get much older than Giles as a watcher and Wesley had to be at least mid twenties cause he went to university,its really ridiculous how much they both didn't care about Faith.

 

[thetopher]

BtVS in 2015 would have probably resulted in Joss's original ending for the Faith character in this episode. When Buffy goes to Faith's motel room, instead of finding Faith washing out her shirt, she finds Faith hanging from the ceiling after committing suicide.

That would have been brutally depressing.

Agreed.
So glad it didn't happen, Joss made one of his best decisions as a writer, saw the promise of Faith as a character in her own right and not just a reflection of Buffy, and now Faith thrives. 🙂

 

[SB4thewannabes]

Agreed.
So glad it didn't happen, Joss made one of his best decisions as a writer, saw the promise of Faith as a character in her own right and not just a reflection of Buffy, and now Faith thrives. 🙂

I suppose they could have done it and have her survive, but with the episodes they had left that would have had to be skimped over and would have potentially over shadowed the big bad had it been dealt with in anything but an off hand way.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Well I don't think we can get much older than Giles as a watcher and Wesley had to be at least mid twenties cause he went to university, its really ridiculous how much they both didn't care about Faith.

From "Faith, Hope and Trick 3ABB03" we get this exchange:

BUFFY
Um, maybe I should introduce you
again. Faith, this is Giles.

FAITH
I seen him. If I'd a known they came
this young and cute I'd've requested
a transfer.

It looks like her former slayer was older and later we learn her Watcher was a woman. A Watcher has physical duties that only involve training, so old age does not preclude being a Watcher. But I agree, the new slayer should have been a priority. Contrast this with Season 7 where Giles retrieves slayers from all over the world and participates in their training.

 

[bespangeled]

BtVS in 2015 would have probably resulted in Joss's original ending for the Faith character in this episode. When Buffy goes to Faith's motel room, instead of finding Faith washing out her shirt, she finds Faith hanging from the ceiling after committing suicide.

Nah, I see something closer to Faith, The Vampire Slaye - Faith is a survivor. This one would be set at the Cleveland Hellmouth. Raw, gritty - as a show it would be closer to Gunn's reality than Harmony's. Vamps and demons would be more than just the demons from high school - they would be part of what tears people apart..