Should Faith had been given a stronger much older Watcher?

[bespangeled]

I think the fact that Faith didn't tell anybody what happened indicates the damage. Faith lied about where her Watcher was and about her current circumstances- the girl had trust issues right from the start when it came to Buffy and her friends.
Indoubtably F
aith had guilt over what happened to her watcher- imagine if something that horrible had happened to Giles and tell me Buffy wouldn'y have been shocked and guilt-ridden, even back in S1 when they were just starting out.
It's only when Buffy forces her way past Faith's walls (and when she's scared) that Faith trusts her with the truth and Buffy says that Faith did the right thing- that she stayed alive. Then Faith (literally) confronted her demon and incidentally helped Buffy were her own personal ones.

I don't see these as trust issues - I see these as common sense precautions. She's not gonna walk into a completely unknown situation and tell strangers everything about the mortal danger she was in. As for Buffy and company - Faith was completely right to have those trust issues and they saved her a lot of hurt and aggravation, IMO.

No argument on her watcher - just saying she would react like Buffy and neither one is damaged.

Yes - my point is Faith has incredible value, and should have not had to fight for acceptance. I agree with what you say here.

 

[Mr Trick]

Like SB4thewannables I can see both sides of this argument. I do think that given her dark past and how hard it can be adjusting to a new culture then I get why Faith felt cut off, and I do think that Willow for one could have made a bit more of an effect to help her fit in. On the other hand while I see the class devide I also think that Faith sometimes over played that herself, its like she was just as guilty if not more so than smearing the Scoobies/Buffy/Giles because of their backgrounds than they were of her. While they should not have been so judgemental of her I do think that Buffy largely had good intentions and did try to help Faith or engage with her. And up to a point some of their reactions seem quite normal to me considering Faith's actions.

The other thing I never get is when people get on Buffy for her reaction after Faith accidentally killed Alan. I mean putting it in an everyday context if someone you knew killed someone no matter the context, wouldn't you expect them to show some guilt and some remorse? Faith was acting cold about it, and that isn't natural. All Buffy was trying to do was to get her to face up to it and deal with it in the normal way. I don't see it as being judgemental.

So there were mistakes on both sides.

 

[bespangeled]

Like SB4thewannables I can see both sides of this argument. I do think that given her dark past and how hard it can be adjusting to a new culture then I get why Faith felt cut off, and I do think that Willow for one could have made a bit more of an effect to help her fit in. On the other hand while I see the class devide I also think that Faith sometimes over played that herself, its like she was just as guilty if not more so than smearing the Scoobies/Buffy/Giles because of their backgrounds than they were of her. While they should not have been so judgemental of her I do think that Buffy largely had good intentions and did try to help Faith or engage with her. And up to a point some of their reactions seem quite normal to me considering Faith's actions.

The other thing I never get is when people get on Buffy for her reaction after Faith accidentally killed Alan. I mean putting it in an everyday context if someone you knew killed someone no matter the context, wouldn't you expect them to show some guilt and some remorse? Faith was acting cold about it, and that isn't natural. All Buffy was trying to do was to get her to face up to it and deal with it in the normal way. I don't see it as being judgemental.

So there were mistakes on both sides.

I see that while Buffy and company "tried" to be Faith's friend, no one is ever actually her friend. The picture that comes to mind for me is Faith alone in her room with the Xmas lights. How would that scene have gone if Buffy was actually friendly, actually showed she wanted Faith over, even took her coat off and sat for a few minutes? I don't see that Faith ever smeared them - she just saw what was happening and moved on.

As for the rest - I agree. Killing someone crosses a line - and there is no excuse for that. But I can see why Faith panicked and ran. She had no support system to see her through that. Angel gave that to her, once she had reached bottom.

 

[Mr Trick]

I see that while Buffy and company "tried" to be Faith's friend, no one is ever actually her friend. The picture that comes to mind for me is Faith alone in her room with the Xmas lights. How would that scene have gone if Buffy was actually friendly, actually showed she wanted Faith over, even took her coat off and sat for a few minutes? I don't see that Faith ever smeared them - she just saw what was happening and moved on.

As for the rest - I agree. Killing someone crosses a line - and there is no excuse for that. But I can see why Faith panicked and ran. She had no support system to see her through that. Angel gave that to her, once she had reached bottom.

No I think Buffy did try to be her friend, she opened the door on a couple of occusions, maybe she could have tried a bit harder, but the fact is Faith on the whole rejected this. She invited her round for Christmas, and don't forget in Bad Girls she did embrace Faith's lifestyle a bit more. On this account I think Buffy made more of an effect to fit in with Faith than Faith did with her.

I can see why Faith panicked and ran too, but then in the aftermouth when Buffy was trying to help her deal she should have been more receptive.

 

[SB4thewannabes]

Love to hear more on this one - what would the Scoobies have changed about themselves to make them worthy of having Faith as a friend?

Invited her to the meetings about the things they were going up against for a start

I think she saw early on that the price was gonna be too high. And I think Faith is pragmatic and knows what she is willing to pay. It was obvious from the moment she arrived that she was gonna face this kind of pressure, had met it before, and had limited patience. Yes, she wanted safety, friends, a bit of guidance but she found none of those there, and she moved on.

As I said before, both sides had to give and take.

Not inarguable, at all. I completely argue - she was not damaged goods. Unless we want to make Buffy severely damaged every time she was afraid. She liked her Watcher - saw her murdered and knew the killer was coming after her so she went to the only safety the council offered. That is not damaged. We'll get to the rest next paragraph, but I would argue the nature of humanity (and drama) is one step forward and two steps back. It's kinda what makes Harmony dull. Look at all the arcs - the interesting characters all had lessons they need to learn. Damage is incredibly relative - frankly I would call Wesley badly damaged at that time.

Undamaged goods don't try to end the world then commit suicide. Buffy was damaged, but then she had her mum, and didn't have an ancient vampire chasing her across the country intent on brutally murdering her after her watcher was killed. She also managed to get a group of good friends and a new Watcher.

By suburban standards she is just a mess, agreed. It's in the way she walks, the way she dresses, the way she talks, and everything she says. That is why they turn their backs on her. She is the bad-girl-victim-other that most suburban moms are protecting their kids from. Parker would have been more acceptable, because she was judged on her packaging and he had the right packaging.

All for show. People who she trust either die, or in her eyes betray her. The image she presents to the world is to prevent that happening.

Please don't say that growing up poor is handicap - because I think that growing up rich is far worse for any sort of true moral development.

Then we have to agree to disagree. Poverty has long been known to negatively affect almost every aspect of child development.

It leads too often to an overwhelming sense of entitlement.

It can do, but it's irrelevant to the discussion.

There are tons of kids with non existent fathers - they are not broken. A drunk mother who hits her - sucks but you can survive that. Changed yes - broken no. Dropped out of high school - not great, but not broken. I actually know a fair amount of kids who dropped out of high school and are solid people.

All of these things individually are survivable, but taken together and added to seeing a person you are close to torn apart and then chased halfway across the country by their killer they become something else entirely. I just cannot comprehend how you could possibly believe Faith could go through all of that, alone and not be damaged.

As for men - Faith really enjoys sex. I don't know why this is a sign of abuse and being broken but I think that is only in the female world. Her partners don't get that rap. Men who enjoy sex like this - have a strong libido - are not broken. But girls must have been abused if they prefer hot recreational sex to romance and flowers? Disagree - sexist cliche.

She enjoys the control. She enjoys being able to dictate the situation. I'm not saying she is broken because she has lots of sex, but the causes behind why she does may have been a part of what has left her damaged. Also why do say men who have lots of sex just have a strong libido - looks like a sterotype creeping in there.

Urban kids - kids who live the life Faith led are not broken, in reality. They just look different from the suburban media ideal. They talk differently, dress differently, and have a completely different set of skills and a lot of hard won wisdom. But one important thing they know is that in the eyes of the segment of society that gets to judge, they are trash, damaged good, broken. I am sorry - I have seen this attitude so many times. So they learn to turn away the same way their suburban counterparts do but for far better reason. Faith would have to change way too much to put on that mask and live with it.

Again, she is not damaged because she is an 'urban kid'. She is damaged because she is damaged.

Dana was broken. Dru was broken. Faith was not - she just came from a reality that the others had been told was inferior and dangerous.

Dru was broken because she was mentally tortured before being turned, Dana was broken because she saw her family murdered and then was tortured by their murderer. Notice any similarities with Faith there? If anything it shows how strong Faith was that she wasn't more damaged than she was.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Also, damaged doesn't have to equal weak.

 

[SB4thewannabes]

Also, damaged doesn't have to equal weak.

Exactly. Also, being 'strong' all the time can cause damage by bottling up all problems. How many times did Buffy fall apart because everything became too much for her? SMG's tear ducts deserved an Emmy by the end of series 7. Faith didn't have the ability/chose not to release in that way, and by the time she did she was completely broken.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Also, being strong doesn't have to equal strength. Being weak can be being strong. Some are at their strongest when they are at their weakest, and weakest when strongest.

 

[SB4thewannabes]

Also, being strong doesn't have to equal strength. Being weak can be being strong. Some are at their strongest when they are at their weakest, and weakest when strongest.

That's what I was going for, but with a lot more words and considerably less 'getting my point across-ness'

 

[white avenger]

A Watcher more supportive of her, regardless of age, would, I think, have made all the difference. What Faith needed was a Watcher who would have been able to tell her simply that accidents happen, the Assistant Mayor's death was just a case of him being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and, above else, it's the mission that mattered. She was fulfilling the mission quite satisfactorily, even admirably. He should have told her that bad experiences are made to be learned from, and he was proud of her.

The whole issue of, "Faith, you KILLED A MAN!" was from Buffy, reflecting her own personal feelings, and we have no indication whatsoever that there was any such distinction in Watcher policy. In fact, we see, later, that the taking of human life, when deemed necessary is sanctioned. It was Faith's bad luck, and poor judgement, in trying to put the blame on Buffy that was her downfall, given Giles' personal feelings for "his" Slayer. Just imagine how much supportive and understanding that he would have been if it actually had been Buffy who killed the Assistant Mayor, rather than Faith. Even if Buffy had tried to accuse Faith of the killing, she would have gotten a much more sympathetic response from Giles, once he learned the truth, than Faith ever got.

Faith didn't have to go dark, other than as a plot twist for Season 3. If Buffy, Giles, and the Scoobies had been more supportive, even after her original denial, that entire arc would never have happened, Angel would never have been poisoned, Buffy would never have been bitten, the volcanologist might still have been killed, but not by Faith, and Buffy would have had another Slayer backing her up in the final battle.

 

[SB4thewannabes]

What Faith needed was a Watcher who would have been able to tell her simply that accidents happen, the Assistant Mayor's death was just a case of him being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and, above else, it's the mission that mattered. She was fulfilling the mission quite satisfactorily, even admirably. He should have told her that bad experiences are made to be learned from, and he was proud of her.

That's kind of letting her off the hook though - yes, it was an accident, but as accidents go it was about as serious a one as could ever happen, and at the very least would have required a stint off duty as a Slayer and probably psychological counciling. I'm a big fan of the character, but brushing what she did aside as collateral damage wouldn't have helped in the slightest.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

We already know the kind of Watcher personality Faith would have flourished under - someone just like Mayor Wilkins. Of course, he would have to be on the good side, but we know how the mayor handled Faith. First of all, he liked her. He approved of all the things she did for him and in particular, her initiative in instances such as the killing of the messenger who brought the box of Gavrok. But in answer to the thread title, stronger and older would not have mattered. She needed someone who liked her and approved of her.

 

[white avenger]

That's kind of letting her off the hook though - yes, it was an accident, but as accidents go it was about as serious a one as could ever happen, and at the very least would have required a stint off duty as a Slayer and probably psychological counseling. I'm a big fan of the character, but brushing what she did aside as collateral damage wouldn't have helped in the slightest.

I'm in no way trying to detract from the taking of a human life, but I still believe that my argument is valid. The Slayer deals with death every time that she goes out on patrol. To simply say that the only minions of evil in the world are either vampires or demons is unrealistic. There are evil humans, humans who have done nothing whatsoever to violate the laws of mankind, so are in no danger from any civil authority, and stopping them should be just as much a part of the Slayer's job as stopping any vampire or demon. Indeed, from what we have seen, neither the Watchers' Council in general, who sent a wet team to capture or kill Faith, nor Giles in particular, who killed totally human Ben without a moment's hesitation, have any hard and fast rules protecting all human life.

The Assistant Mayor's death was a total accident. He had no business being where he was at that particular moment other than carrying out the instructions of Mayor Wilkins (who Giles ran through with a sword, by the way, with every intent of killing him) He was a member of a group involved in a plot to take over the world, as much as any one of Wilkins' vampire soldiers, and, as such, just as valid a target for the Slayer as any one of them was.

Even if we assumed that he was totally innocent of all wrong doing, how would the Assistant Mayor's life be one whit less sacred than Dawn's life was in Season 5, when Giles was quite vocal about sacrificing her if all else failed, or the dozen or so Knights Of Byzantium who Buffy, herself, killed quite efficiently, and with, as far as we ever saw, no regrets? During the centuries since the Shadow Men empowered the First Slayer, do you honestly believe that the need to kill humans has never come up, and been dealt with, before? Do you honestly think that totally innocent bystanders have somehow never gotten in the line of fire before that night? The death of a single human is something that would have to be put in perspective. As heartless as it might seem, the fight can't stop, and the Slayer can't take a stint off duty whenever something like that occurs. Maybe after Season 7, when we have a veritable army of Slayers, such a thing might be possible, but when your entire fighting force consists of one, or even two, girls standing against all of the forces of Evil, both human and supernatural, that simply can't happen.

Giles would certainly known all of that, and should have made certain that Faith was made aware of it, as well. Faith, however, made the fatal mistake of trying to put the blame on Buffy, and that brought out all of Giles' fatherly protective instincts. Faith's great sin, in Giles' opinion, was, I believe, not in trying to hide her feelings of guilt, which would be understandable. What she did, that Giles could not forgive, was her trying to put the blame on Buffy. Giles believed in his Slayer totally. Faith was an outsider.

 

[thetopher]

Just imagine how much supportive and understanding that he would have been if it actually had been Buffy who killed the Assistant Mayor, rather than Faith.

Actually we know exactly what Giles would've done, because of his actions in 'Ted'. For 24 hours Buffy thought that she had killed a human in far less ambiguous circumstances than what happened with Finch. Her friends were supportive and Giles told Buffy to take a break from patrol whilst he took on the burden himself. He was sympathetic, supportive and understanding. To Buffy, not Faith.

 

[Samuel Reyes]

A bit off-topic here, but do you think if say, Xander, had gone to Faith earlier and genuinely tried to become her friend that she would have reciprocated? Or would she have been convinced that he only wanted her for sex and kicked him to the curb?

 

[white avenger]

A bit off-topic here, but do you think if say, Xander, had gone to Faith earlier and genuinely tried to become her friend that she would have reciprocated? Or would she have been convinced that he only wanted her for sex and kicked him to the curb?

I think that winning Faith's trust and commitment to any sort of relationship, be it friend, or lover, would take a lot of work. I got the distinct feeling that, if there was one thing in the world, beyond Kokistos, that Faith actually feared, it was letting her guard down and allowing anyone to get close. We saw the beginnings of that guard coming down with Buffy prior to Finch's death, but that single event, and everyone's reaction to it, pretty much destroyed all possibilities of it ever really happening.

 

[Samuel Reyes]

We saw the beginnings of that guard coming down with Buffy prior to Finch's death, but that single event, and everyone's reaction to it, pretty much destroyed all possibilities of it ever really happening.

I scream every time I watch Revelations and Faith is about to open up to Buffy, but can't bring herself to do it because they kept Angel's return a secret from her. Faith's recklessness and trust issues contributed to her face-heel turn, but the Scoobies and Wesley at least score an assist.

 

[bespangeled]

Undamaged goods don't try to end the world then commit suicide. Buffy was damaged, but then she had her mum, and didn't have an ancient vampire chasing her across the country intent on brutally murdering her after her watcher was killed. She also managed to get a group of good friends and a new Watcher.

Well, yeah. In which case every one of the Scoobs is dangerous in some way, trying to end the world, trying to kill everyone else in the group, working for the enemy, summoning demons which kill friends, committing suicide, ripping a friend out of heaven, etc. Even Buffy tries to kill Faith - so killing humans, it can be approved under certain circumstances.My point is that Faith is not inherently damaged - but as you point out here she is seen as far more damaged than any other cast member.

Then we have to agree to disagree. Poverty has long been known to negatively affect almost every aspect of child development.

Lived in poverty much of my life - poverty does mean not successful. I'm college educated, a teacher and an author with 34 books published. But I like this strata, and rather than accumulate wealth I accumulated kids who needed a sane adult. The last one I took in lived with us for 7 years. Her mother was a crack whore and her father raped her when she was nine. She is not damaged goods - nor are the others we took in. Kids in foster care group homes, kids with both parents alcoholics, kids who just needed a break from the insanity. I know what I am talking about. To proclaim these kids damaged goods is to cut their lives short before they get started. It is to ignore the tremendous ability to survive. Were their home situations awful - yes. So was mine. Damaged is a really loaded word to use refereeing to children. As far as we know Faith came from a rough neighborhood, and a weak home structure - aside from being hit by her mother there is no other mention of abuse. She is way ahead of the kids I took in.

Are their lives altered from the results of this - yes. Stress will do that. Look at Xander asleep outside in the snow. So let me say that Faith is no more damaged than any of the scoobs, and that's why the label upsets me. It's based on appearance and class.

As for the studies - how many do you think were done by people with any experience of poverty? What measurement yardstick did they use - no doubt achieving suburban life quality.

It can do, but it's irrelevant to the discussion.

No - it simply means we look at other forms of damage not from poverty.

All of these things individually are survivable, but taken together and added to seeing a person you are close to torn apart and then chased halfway across the country by their killer they become something else entirely. I just cannot comprehend how you could possibly believe Faith could go through all of that, alone and not be damaged.

I could not disagree more. What you are saying is based on her appearance and her class background. Personally Willow flaying a man alive and trying to end the world seems more like a candidate for being called damaged. I just see no reason to single Faith out.

Also, damaged doesn't have to equal weak.

No, it doesn't equal weak. It does equal never as good, broken, unable to properly function, little hope for the future without intervention.

Actually we know exactly what Giles would've done, because of his actions in 'Ted'. For 24 hours Buffy thought that she had killed a human in far less ambiguous circumstances than what happened with Finch. Her friends were supportive and Giles told Buffy to take a break from patrol whilst he took on the burden himself. He was sympathetic, supportive and understanding. To Buffy, not Faith.

Exactly!

 

[SB4thewannabes]

Well, yeah. In which case every one of the Scoobs is dangerous in some way, trying to end the world, trying to kill everyone else in the group, working for the enemy, summoning demons which kill friends, committing suicide, ripping a friend out of heaven, etc. Even Buffy tries to kill Faith - so killing humans, it can be approved under certain circumstances.My point is that Faith is not inherently damaged - but as you point out here she is seen as far more damaged than any other cast member.

I've never claimed that only Faith wss damaged, but it seems utterly inconceivable that you are claiming she isn't.

Lived in poverty much of my life - poverty does mean not successful. I'm college educated, a teacher and an author with 34 books published. But I like this strata, and rather than accumulate wealth I accumulated kids who needed a sane adult. The last one I took in lived with us for 7 years. Her mother was a crack whore and her father raped her when she was nine. She is not damaged goods - nor are the others we took in. Kids in foster care group homes, kids with both parents alcoholics, kids who just needed a break from the insanity. I know what I am talking about. To proclaim these kids damaged goods is to cut their lives short before they get started. It is to ignore the tremendous ability to survive. Were their home situations awful - yes. So was mine. Damaged is a really loaded word to use refereeing to children. As far as we know Faith came from a rough neighborhood, and a weak home structure - aside from being hit by her mother there is no other mention of abuse. She is way ahead of the kids I took in.

You appear to be arguing against things that I haven't said. Poverty is the number one factor in determining outcome of a childs life. That's not an opinion, it's well researched fact. Unless you are not understanding what I mean when I say 'damaged' I just can not comprehend your view on this.

Are their lives altered from the results of this - yes. Stress will do that. Look at Xander asleep outside in the snow. So let me say that Faith is no more damaged than any of the scoobs, and that's why the label upsets me. It's based on appearance and class.

Xander slept 'in the snow' because it miraculously happened to snow at that moment. Otherwise it would not have been that cold in Calafornia at Christmas.

As for the studies - how many do you think were done by people with any experience of poverty? What measurement yardstick did they use - no doubt achieving suburban life quality.

It is completely irrelevant what level of poverty or otherwise the people who performed these studies came from. These are studies commisioned by childrens charities, governments and other charities from around the world.

No - it simply means we look at other forms of damage not from poverty.

Only possible to do if you rule out poverty as a defining factor, which is impossible.

I could not disagree more. What you are saying is based on her appearance and her class background. Personally Willow flaying a man alive and trying to end the world seems more like a candidate for being called damaged. I just see no reason to single Faith out.

The only person singling Faith out appears to be you. She was focused on as a) the topic is about her, and b) only she has all of those factors affecting her life.

No, it doesn't equal weak. It does equal never as good, broken, unable to properly function, little hope for the future without intervention.

Completely disagree with the bolded text. The Scoobies may have thought that, Faith herself may have thought that, but in itself being damaged does not mean that at all. Again, damaged is not broken, but it is a step on the road to being broken.



Exactly![/QUOTE]

 

[bespangeled]

I've never claimed that only Faith wss damaged, but it seems utterly inconceivable that you are claiming she isn't.

Undamaged goods don't try to end the world then commit suicide. Faith has been singled out as damaged several times in this thread. The implication there is that the others who she dealt with were not damaged because they lived in a suburban environment rather than an urban one.

You appear to be arguing against things that I haven't said. Poverty is the number one factor in determining outcome of a childs life. That's not an opinion, it's well researched fact. Unless you are not understanding what I mean when I say 'damaged' I just can not comprehend your view on this.

Child Development: Top 7 Affecting Factors | Just-Health.net
Factors Affecting Early Childhood Development | LIVESTRONG.COM
Factors that Influence Children’s Social and Emotional Development
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How Environmental Factors Affect Social and Emotional Development

This is just from a quick google. The few studies that list poverty concentrate on stunted physical growth and brain development due to poor diet. By and large there were several other factors with more importance The number one factor brought up is parental substance abuse and/or mental health problems both found in every economic strata, stress which is also found in every strata, and adult attention. Faith had a watcher she had bonded with even if her parents were not the best.

Xander slept 'in the snow' because it miraculously happened to snow at that moment. Otherwise it would not have been that cold in Calafornia at Christmas.

Xander slept outside in spite of the snow to avoid the drunken brawl going on in his house.

It is completely irrelevant what level of poverty or otherwise the people who performed these studies came from. These are studies commisioned by childrens charities, governments and other charities from around the world.

Yes, and it is impossible to design a study without bias. The source of bias in a study that covers this area would be the expectations and life experience of those who created the study, and the yardstick by which they determine damage or lack thereof.

Only possible to do if you rule out poverty as a defining factor, which is impossible.

In fact, the subject was developmental problems in the upper income strata. I believe poverty was clearly ruled out as a defining factor.

The only person singling Faith out appears to be you. She was focused on as a) the topic is about her, and b) only she has all of those factors affecting her life.

Yes, and I object to some of what is being said about her. So I am making my case. Feel free to disagree, but try not to quite as condescending. While you may declare yourself shocked and appalled at what you consider my ignorance, I do in fact have good reason to disagree - both from the studies cited and from life experience.

Completely disagree with the bolded text. The Scoobies may have thought that, Faith herself may have thought that, but in itself being damaged does not mean that at all. Again, damaged is not broken, but it is a step on the road to being broken.

Synonyms for damaged -
broken
impaired
marred
not working
flawed
fouled up
in poor condition
loused up
messed up
mucked up
out of whack
screwed up
unsound
 

A bit off-topic here, but do you think if say, Xander, had gone to Faith earlier and genuinely tried to become her friend that she would have reciprocated? Or would she have been convinced that he only wanted her for sex and kicked him to the curb?

Given the loyalty she later shared with Angel, I think it might be in her. But he would have to both have her back and reign in her. Kind of like a street smart, independent Anya.