Should there had been more atonement from Spike?

[gite63]

Also don't get the statement "that's the way the game plays".
So why bother with the rape attempt with such argument - "that's the way the game plays" - Buffy was a Slayer, Spike was a vampire - they were natural enemies, so his attack was only natural thing. Nope, doesn't work even for Spike-haters, I guess.
And again for this "natural enemies" argument - Wood was a vampire-hunter, Spike was a vampire (soul or no soul - still vampire) - the "natural" thing to do for a vampire-hunter is to kill a vampire.
So why exactly the first case with Spike and Nikki is more "natural" than the other two?

Wood went after Spike not because he was a vampire-hunter, he had personal reasons; he lost his mother and grew up with the idea that one day he would find the murderer and kill him. He found him, in the worst time possible, and was used by the First (and Giles).

Buffy and Spike had a non-relationship, it was a personal thing.

Now, evil vampire x powerful Slayer is part of a game; like that American Sniper movie: it seems to me (I haven't watched it) that the guy is considered a hero. He killed hundreds of people. The guys from the other side are probably considered heroes, too, having killed many Americans. Not a good thing, though, from both sides, to brag about it, but they do, because is part of the “game”. Spike liked a brawl, so he sought powerful opponents; it wasn't cold-blooded murder.

 

[Kana]

Now, evil vampire x powerful Slayer is part of a game; like that American Sniper movie: it seems to me (I haven't watched it) that the guy is considered a hero. He killed hundreds of people. The guys from the other side are probably considered heroes, too, having killed many Americans. Not a good thing, though, from both sides, to brag about it, but they do, because is part of the “game”. Spike liked a brawl, so he sought powerful opponents; it wasn't cold-blooded murder.

You see I disagree. As I said before, Spike didn't kill Slayers because he felt that vampires were being victimized, he did it because he found pleasure in it, the same way Angelus found pleasure destroying his victims.

The problem with vampires, is that they still retain the same concept of morality that their human predecessors do, but they consider themselves on the other side of that line. It may be true that Spike didn't think about the concept of evil with much depth but that doesn't mean that he considered himself a 'hero' for killing Slayers anymore than Angelus considered himself a misunderstood artist. We have to make a distinction between vampires having a different psychological disposition from humans and having a different perspective on on what is right and what is wrong.

What surprises with soulledSpike's logic is that he knew and understood that it wasn't a "game" to the Slayers he killed. For them a heart rending burden and duty and for Nikki a moral duty. For him it was a fun sport. He knew that for every Slayer, they were a multitude of demons. He understood the burden that would place upon them. So to reduce her struggle to a 'game'???

It's debatable whether Spike and Angel should feel guilty for the actions prior to getting their soul back, but understanding how their actions affected others should at least give them pause for thought. Spike with a soul, is learning and growing and personally, even if he is helping the woman he loves, so what? I have enough evidence that Spike is on the side of humanity because he believes in the fight. The fact that he cares about Buffy shouldn't diminish that. Hell, we could say the fact that Scoobies like Buffy or that Angel's friends care about him means they don't really believe in the mission!

I didn't like the things that Spike said in LMPTM, but then I don't like a lot of the things characters say. Atonement is a difficult concept in a secularism. To whom would Spike atoning?

Angel spent a long time coming to terms with what he did, but part of that was coming to terms with his own identity. If Spike gets through that more quickly then so what? My advice to Blondie Bear is, keep doing what you're doing.

 

[Firstina]

Wood went after Spike not because he was a vampire-hunter, he had personal reasons; he lost his mother and grew up with the idea that one day he would find the murderer and kill him. He found him, in the worst time possible, and was used by the First (and Giles).
Buffy and Spike had a non-relationship, it was a personal thing.
Now, evil vampire x powerful Slayer is part of a game; like that American Sniper movie: it seems to me (I haven't watched it) that the guy is considered a hero. He killed hundreds of people. The guys from the other side are probably considered heroes, too, having killed many Americans. Not a good thing, though, from both sides, to brag about it, but they do, because is part of the “game”. Spike liked a brawl, so he sought powerful opponents; it wasn't cold-blooded murder.

Exactly. The argument about "natural enemies" doesn't work neither in the case of SpikeVSNikki nor in cases SpikeVSBuffy and SpikeVSWood.
Either we agree about the some sort of personal reasons involved in all 3 cases or in none of them.
And then the argument like it's ok because they are 'natural enemies' is invalid.

 

[thetopher]

Isn't that a little bit of a narrow view though? Buffy is front and center for trying to save the world. Spike loves Buffy and wants to do good and save the world. Surely the only sensible place for someone like that would be with Buffy trying to save the world?

Not really. Every other member of the Scooby gang has had moments where they've established self-identity AWAY from Buffy- their motivations for doing good aren't motivated (and are shown not to be motivated) by their personal relationship with Buffy. Think Willow in S3 'Choices'- they all have their 'this is why I do it' phase, and Spike hasn't had that while Buffy's been around.
Willow, Xander, Giles, Dawn, hell- even Andrew, all haver established motivations about why they do what they do that go beyond a personal relationship with Buffy.

If say, Spike and Buffy were working together (in the same comic or whatever) and in romantic relationships with other people, then I could buy/accept that Spike's redemptive path has finally moved past the 'to be with Buffy' (hell, I would like that) but it hasn't.

They are now romantically linked for the season again. It's been like this since...Christ, since Season 5. 5 seasons (discounting most of Season 8 apart from the bone the writers threw them in the final episodes- Spike was utterly wasted in S8) of Spike and Buffy being in some way romantically involved- she being his primary motivation. It's utterly tired. (Entire arcs being devoted to it...)

The writers need to break from that, have Spike establish his own identity (probably in another comic by this stage, since he said 'I love you' again) and motivations beyond doomed romance. 

As Silverspike said, from the mouth of Joss Whedon:

Joss' first words about any 'unofficial' romance/ship was the 'bring your own ship' philosophy that was inspired by a subtext discussion about Buffy and Faith.

He basically said 'anything goes' and has said many, many things about all sorts of ships on both shows, often contradicting himself over and over (everything he's said about Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike for example- there are numerous quotes of him favoring one over the other depending on what quote you want to cherry pick).

So if Joss says it, doesn't make it gospel. The character saying it is far more compelling in my view- otherwise, according to Joss himself, ALL ships are pretty much canon- the fans just pick the one they want. 😉

From the mouth of Joss Whedon people.

 

[gite63]

Either we agree about the some sort of personal reasons involved in all 3 cases or in none of them.

It's “game” for humans and Slayers to kill vampires; nevertheless, when Spike was trying to commit suicide, Xander wanted to give him a hand and Willow said that it would be weird because they knew him. In the comics, Buffy was being “mean girl” to Vicky The Vampire, because eventually she would have to kill her; having any kind of relationship with her would make it difficult to kill her later. So, IMO, there is a distinction. Should souled Spike review his thinking on the matter? For me, Wood having grown up without his mother is something more to think about then a Slayer who was killed while in mission (not that murder is lesser than being an orphan, mind you). But after Wood tried to kill him...

 

[Silverspike]

"From the mouth of Joss Whedon people."

No, you, just you...🙂

 

[gite63]

Surely the only sensible place for someone like that would be with Buffy trying to save the world?

Besides, he already stayed away from her - Angel, Angel: After the Fall, Spike: After the Fall.

And if the woman you love keeps saying that you should stay, you eventually stay.

So, you're home for good, now?
Can't you use (the threat of) Simone as an excuse, and stay?
I've called you because I need your help.
It's very cool we are friends, but I want more.



And if the woman you love keeps saying that you should stay, you eventually stay.


So, you're home for good, now?

Can you use (the threat of) Simone as an excuse, and stay?

I've called you because I need your help.

It's very cool we are friends, but I want more.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, and Buffy also called Spike 'Stalky the clown' for hanging out around her house (technically Dawn's place where she was squatting) all the damn time and repeating that he 'was not invited in' and 'still not invited in' and so forth at the end of S8.
But Spike didn't leave her alone. So perhaps Buffy took pity on her stalker?

 

[gite63]

"From the mouth of Joss Whedon people."

No, you, just you...🙂

And I remember this:

Angel and Faith - Death and Consequences Part 4

Angel and Spike are bickering about Buffy, of course. Faith is annoyed and says:

'cause if we gonna keep reminiscing about akward sexual encounters, we'll be here all day.

Spike adds:

Ah, no. No, let's not do that.

And both Spike and Angel roll eyes.

 

[Fuffy]

Buffy also called Spike 'Stalky the clown'

As a Spike fan, I 100% agree that he has better things to do than to stalk Buffy out of boredom just because "Passions" isn't on.

Angel and Spike are bickering about Buffy, of course.

I find the constant bickering between Spike and Angel about Buffy quite annoying because that gets them nowhere (especially not when it comes to getting the girl).

 

[thetopher]

Angel and Spike are bickering about Buffy, of course. Faith is annoyed and says:

'cause if we gonna keep reminiscing about akward sexual encounters, we'll be here all day.

Spike adds:

Ah, no. No, let's not do that.

And both Spike and Angel roll eyes.

So you're implying that Faith knows about Angel and Spike? Highly doubtful, since we've never even heard Angel mention it (which means that, if it did happen) then it was Angelus not Angel. Two separate people. 🙂

And if an awkward conversational exchange between two characters is all it takes to make something officially 'canon' the Angel/Lindsey are canon and Buffy/Faith are a thousand times canon. 🙄

Much as I'd like that (both actually) some couples are what-ifs/meant to be's or whatever. 

As a Spike fan, I 100% agree that he has better things to do than to stalk Buffy out of boredom just because "Passions" isn't on.

Agreed. I'm certain that he has better things to do- so they should let him go do them. 🙂

 

[RomanticSoul]

There really should have been a 'neither' or 'other' option on this poll. Should there have been more atonement? Hell I would have settled for some to begin with. Because we got 0. You can only atone if you think you actually did wrong. Which Spike clearly didn't because he washes his hands off any evil he did while soulles. Doesn't stop him from taking credit for the good he did while soulles but that's just how he rolls (dude, get a shrink because you are shizo). 'I don't give a piss about atonement or destiny.' came straight from the horse's mouth. What else is there to say?

 

[Silverspike]

"As a Spike fan, I 100% agree that he has better things to do than to stalk Buffy out of boredom just because "Passions" isn't on."

Oh dear. 🙁

"So you're implying that Faith knows about Angel and Spike? Highly doubtful, since we've never even heard Angel mention it (which means that, if it did happen) then it was Angelus not Angel. Two separate people."

Whatever works for you I suppose.

 

[The Bronze]

The writers need to break from that, have Spike establish his own identity (probably in another comic by this stage, since he said 'I love you' again) and motivations beyond doomed romance.

I think he's already achieved this but you're not seeing it because of the Buffy relationship. Also I think you're down playing the time span between Chosen and when Spike returns at the back end of Season 8. That's got to be at least 2 years right? That's 2 whole years with no Buffy contact and I think he establishes himself as a force for good in his own right. Sure he still has feelings for Buffy but I don't think that detracts from what he's actually doing.

When he becomes corporeal again in Angel he sets about helping the helpless. Does such a good job at it that the Senior Partners think they've backed the wrong horse. When Angel wants to make a stand against the Senior Partners Spike is there on the front line. Not for Buffy but because it's the right thing to do. Also when he thinks it's his last day he choses to recite poetry because that's a personal ambition of his, not contacting Buffy.

Move onto After the Fall, where there seems no hope at all for anyone, and Spike is there throwing himself into protecting the innocent.

Fast forward to Season 10 and at the start he's willing to let go of his wish to be with Buffy in order to just be friends but still be on the front line of saving the world. Not only that but starting up his own side line of work to help the police on smaller scale evil fighting. I think it all paints a picture of someone who will work to help people and fight evil of his own accord, whether or not he's involved with Buffy.

 

[Fuffy]

A lot of the posts on this thread have helped me understand where my very mixed feelings about Spuffy come from…
I think that Buffy and Spike compliment each other quite well as long as Spike isn't constantly fixated on getting into Buffy's pants (you don't need to be fixated on the girl in order to get her 😛) or it's not season 6 Spuffy, then it's a whole other story…

And while Spike's redemption arc could have been done better, just his attempts at redemption and getting a soul made me love and appreciate his character even more 🙂.

 

[thetopher]

I think he's already achieved this but you're not seeing it because of the Buffy relationship.

Yeah, because why else is Spike in San Fran? Because of Buffy.

Also I think you're down playing the time span between Chosen and when Spike returns at the back end of Season 8. That's got to be at least 2 years right?

I already acknowledged what he did on Angel and while the motivation for it a little muddled (pride perhaps) I give him props for it. Which is why I said:

they all have their 'this is why I do it' phase, and Spike hasn't had that while Buffy's been around.

Spike has been allowed to be Spike AWAY from Buffy but as soon as he's in her company again he devolves into stalker/love-sick puppy again. He still isn't his own man (see his quite frankly sad self-esteem issues when it comes to their present romance')

I get that Buffy and Willow have an equal relationship, and Buffy and Xander have a partnership of sorts, but Buffy and Spike? Nope. He always seems like an accessory to HER fight because I don't get what he's doing there.
He's made it clear time and again that he doesn't believe in redemption so what other reason is there? No atonement so there's just the girl.

It's kinda shallow, sad to say.

To be fair this does happen somewhat to Angel (see Twilight) but at least we don't have Angel hanging around his ex constantly, otherwise that would be equally sad.
He has the self-respect to stay gone for long periods and at least try and get over her.

Riley though. Riley gets my respect, he'll work with Buffy just fine and he'll be her friend but he's over her already.

That's 2 whole years with no Buffy contact and I think he establishes himself as a force for good in his own right. Sure he still has feelings for Buffy but I don't think that detracts from what he's actually doing.

2 years ( and for some of those many months he was simply bumming around in his bug ship and spying on Twilight) measured against 4 and a half? That ain't much really. And I don't recall Spike being that selfless/heroic in AtF to be honest, at least not compared to some.

Anyway back on topic- there wasn't any need for Spike to have more of an atonement arc because it doesn't fit his character, he doesn't believe in it, its not his motivation and never has been.
I mean, he is heroic (at times) and he has done good things but his motivation for 85% of that time has always been Buffy.

 

[Silverspike]

"I mean, he is heroic (at times)"

Oh how generous of you. 🙂

 

[EVIL UU]

I don't get what he's doing there. He's made it clear time and again that he doesn't believe in redemption so what other reason is there?

KILLING IS AWESOME!!!​

That's the reason. Fighting evil is still fighting. Violence, thrill and killing - without any pesky conscience to bug you 'cause hey, you're killing demons. It's fun and probably more productive than doing drugs. I mean, Spike's a vampire, an apex predator with instincts and abilities and experiences - what is he supposed to do? Ignore it, drown it in alcohol? He has to fight or he'll go insane, like those poor, crazy animals in Zoos. Also, Spike may not care about redemption but he does care about the world. He always have, just in a much more evil way:

I want to save the world(...) The truth is, I like this world. You've got dog racing, Manchester United. And you've got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here.

I get that Buffy and Willow have an equal relationship, and Buffy and Xander have a partnership of sorts, but Buffy and Spike? Nope.

This is an interesting point, however, is it just Spike's problem? Has Buffy ever dated an equal?

 

[white avenger]

[

​

This is an interesting point, however, is it just Spike's problem? Has Buffy ever dated an equal?

Interesting question, but rather difficult to answer. Is ANYONE else in the Buffyverse Buffy's equal? Neither Angel nor Spike, and CERTAINLY not Riley. Faith, or one of the other Slayers, maybe, but Buffy doesn't swing that way on a regular basis, or at least hasn't so far.

Do you think that maybe Joss could swing a deal with Marvel to bring Captain America over for a short visit, or maybe even a recurring guest role? "The Super Slayer meets the Super Soldier" might be an interesting team up.

 

[gite63]

Interesting question, but rather difficult to answer. Is ANYONE else in the Buffyverse Buffy's equal? Neither Angel nor Spike, and CERTAINLY not Riley.

Buffy and Spike are totally equals. They both are physically strong, they don't need to worry about each other in a fight, when they are having sex they can be what they are and do what they want without fearing to break the other, they are both heroes who fought great battles to save the world (together and separately), they have seen the best and the worst of each other. They are both poor, and they move in similar circles... The problems they have within the relationship – Spike's insecurity, Buffy's fear of commitment – don't have anything to do with to be or not to be equals.

Angel is an equal to her, too - except the part of knowing each other well, since they have been apart for so many years now.

Riley isn't as physically strong as Buffy, and he has a military mind that differs too much from what Buffy stands for.