Question So, why did Angel want Lindsey killed?

[Chris2]

I think there's a difference between the killings of Ben and Drogyn. Ben's continued existence was a deadly threat - allowing him to live would have meant Glory returning. I still have conflicting feelings about his death, but I don't know that Giles really had any other option. Drogyn wasn't a threat. He was an ally, and in my opinion Angel certainly didn't have the right to kill him - he just did it anyway. Maybe the net gain for Team Angel outweighed Drogyn's death, but that still doesn't make it good.

 

[GrrArghx]

Maybe that was the point. Wasn't Drogyn known as someone who was like pure good? Killing him was actually really clever on Angel's part as far as getting into the Circle.

 

[caitaintdead]

That was the point; he finally bucked up and did what needed to be done. Killing Drogyn, Lindsey. He wasnt trying to play by human rules as everyone around him did not. He had a chance to win the game, a chance that would never happen had he followed his 'rules'

What happened in those eight years? Angel grew up.

I think the best response to this is the quote in TheVoid's signature "We live in the world as though it was the way I should be, to show it what it can be". I enjoyed watching Angel because the characters were all about being champions, acting like heroes.

 

[Kelsey]

Maybe that was the point. Wasn't Drogyn known as someone who was like pure good? Killing him was actually really clever on Angel's part as far as getting into the Circle.

But with logic like this, how do you even decide who the real hero is? The person who's killed the least? The person whose actions have made the least people suffer?

That's not what heroes are about. The difference between heroes and villians is that heroes have moral codes they don't break. If heroes start acting exactly the same as villians, then what makes them any better?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

"We live in the world as though it was the way I should be, to show it what it can be"

And it was that very naive thinking that lead Angel to being tormented and hounded for years with AI.

What good does it do to show the world what it can be when no one sees? It's a fools errand.

Heros and champions change the world. They dont live in it and bemoan its not everything it could be, they live outside of it; and sometimes that is living outside of the simple laws that govern it.

Champions can walk that line between hero and villain because they have the fortitude and conviction to do so. In the last season Angel WAS finally the hero and champion in his mind, that others had called him. He had courage of conviction and the self assuredness that his actions, regardless of how deplorable by some, was for the benefit of all.

 

[TheVoid68]

What good does it do to show the world what it can be when no one sees?

Because it's the right thing to do. To me, a hero does what is right, not what is always best. That, to me, is the difference between a Hero and a General.

"It doesn't matter what we've suffered, or even if we make a difference..."

 

[Taake]

Because it's the right thing to do. To me, a hero does what is right, not what is always best. That, to me, is the difference between a Hero and a General.

To me a hero who never compromises their 'hero-ness' would be completely boring to watch. On Buffy they get away with it more easily because there are others there to pick up the slack so to speak (like Giles killing Ben instead of Buffy doing so)

But Angel doesn't have a Giles. So sometimes he has to make those shots himself. Like killing Lindsey. Even if it isn't 'right' (though much like Ben I do think it was right to kill Lindsey)

It gives his character more nuance and hence he's mor interesting to me.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Because it's the right thing to do.

Thats subjective; the very idea of right are wrong is subjective. By saying one action is 'right' means that anyone whom disagrees with you or with said action, is wrong.

Right and wrong are inconsequential; its the context of which actions take place that makes them justified or not.

 

[TheVoid68]

I should clarify: Because Angel, at least in Deep Down, thinks it's the right thing to do. That's why he did it. (And personally, I agree).

But Angel doesn't have a Giles.

Yes he does, he has Wesley. "Lineage" lays out their differences very well, and it shows why Angel needs Wesley. Wesley can make the hard decisions, do the things that Angel is too much of a hero to do. For the record, I love Wesley to bits, and I love Angel too, and I think that on a team they complement each other very well, because of their differences. I love Wesley, but I didn't want Angel turning into him.

 

[dan k]

I should clarify: Because Angel, at least in Deep Down, thinks it's the right thing to do. That's why he did it. (And personally, I agree).

But Angel doesn't have a Giles.

Yes he does, he has Wesley. "Lineage" lays out their differences very well, and it shows why Angel needs Wesley. Wesley can make the hard decisions, do the things that Angel is too much of a hero to do. For the record, I love Wesley to bits, and I love Angel too, and I think that on a team they complement each other very well, because of their differences. I love Wesley, but I didn't want Angel turning into him.

Wesley has no idea about Angel's plan to kill Drogyn though. Its not the same situation as seen with Buffy and Giles because Buffy told Giles about the key. Giles knew Ben was Glory so he could make a conscious decision to kill him.

Wesley had no idea of Angel's intentions plus Angel was a character who could make the tough decisions, for instance turning back time, leaving Buffy etc.

 

[TheVoid68]

That wasn't my point. I'm talking about the type of character Angel is and his role in the show.

Also there's a difference between doing the hard thing for long-term good (eg. leaving Buffy) and doing the wrong thing for long-term good.

 

[Taake]

But Angel doesn't have a Giles.

Yes he does, he has Wesley.

Yes, I too think that Angel needs Wesley and that they have an important dynamic.
But Wesley is far from being like Giles, he was more a Giles in the making, but even that said I think Wesley supported the decision of killing Lindsey.

 

[citiegal17]

Yes, I too think that Angel needs Wesley and that they have an important dynamic.
But Wesley is far from being like Giles, he was more a Giles in the making, but even that said I think Wesley supported the decision of killing Lindsey.

Killing Lindsey was just another bad deciscion which Angel made on the laudry list of bad deciscions he made that year. Hell he already got away with mudering Drogyn, who was only in danger because Angel used him in the first place, so why should anyone expect better from him after that. Killing an innocent is a big deal, at least Giles understood its not what heroes do, and he wasn't kidding himself that everything he did was all okay, he knows he did wrong even if he a good reason for doing it. At least Giles wasn't responsible in the same way Angel was, Drogyn was in danger because of Angel, and Lindsey was set up in the most backstabbing and cowardly way by Angel, at least Giles never set out to kill Ben in the begining, and he wasn't responsible for Ben being in a condition which would trap him with Glory. Wesley was a character that was still broken, he lost all reason just a few episodes before this, his judgement was far from being sound at this point. Doyle warned Angel about seeing people as numbers, and Angel did exactly that its an insult to his sacrifice he made in Hero. Angel has no more right to judge who deserves to live than anyone else, it shows how compeltely corrupt he was in that season, he wasn't even close to the hero he was in season 1&2, at least he had class back then.

 

[Nikkolas]

One should not trust Wesley with much of anything in the later seasons of Angel. The guy is bordering on being an emotionally dead sociopath.

As for Angel killing Lindsey, it's clear why he did it.

He's the world's biggest hypocrite.

 

[Zeppo]

You guys, by the time Angel had decided to kill Lindsey the whole gang was already too far in when it came to W&H, there was no turning back. If they didn't hit the bosses the bosses were going to hit them. It was kill or be killed here. The stakes were like they had never been before (the big foretold apocolypse). With the Faith example, not only did Angel relate to Faith's struggle but at least you knew where she stood - and it was her second chance. Lindsey was always a shade of gray and he had his chances.

Lindsey screwed up one too many times. Angel needed to take out the Black Thorn. Honestly, Lindsey knew the war was coming and if Angel had made Wes go with him he may have known something was up. How surprised were we as viewers that Lorne shot him? Just as shocked as Lindsey was so it was very clever. Also, Lorne being with Lindsey, Angel probably felt confident Lorne would be protected and make it through their part of the fight. Welsey and Spike were needed elsewhere.

Again, they were too far in. The best way Angel had to make them believe he was on their side was to show he was willing to do things he never would've, aka kill Drogyn. An initiation, if you will. That's not a "douche" move, it's a chess move, there was no room to play nice here. If he could've avoided killing an innocent, don't you think he would have? He was trying to get in bed with evil, it makes sense evil would want blood in exchange for a membership.

If Angel didn't stab Lindsey in the back, Lindsey would've stabbed Angel. Again. We all know this yet Angel is a douche over it and Lindsey gets sympathy? Wazzup wit dat?

To whomever said that Lindsey might do something in the future and Angel knew about it meant that he could be ready to handle it when it came ... Why? You're sure he could? That's silly. Nip it in the bud before the bud nips you. Maybe Lindsey would've succeeded the next time, why chance that?

 

[citiegal17]

You guys, by the time Angel had decided to kill Lindsey the whole gang was already too far in when it came to W&H, there was no turning back. If they didn't hit the bosses the bosses were going to hit them. It was kill or be killed here. The stakes were like they had never been before (the big foretold apocolypse). With the Faith example, not only did Angel relate to Faith's struggle but at least you knew where she stood - and it was her second chance. Lindsey was always a shade of gray and he had his chances.

Lindsey screwed up one too many times. Angel needed to take out the Black Thorn. Honestly, Lindsey knew the war was coming and if Angel had made Wes go with him he may have known something was up. How surprised were we as viewers that Lorne shot him? Just as shocked as Lindsey was so it was very clever. Also, Lorne being with Lindsey, Angel probably felt confident Lorne would be protected and make it through their part of the fight. Welsey and Spike were needed elsewhere.

Again, they were too far in. The best way Angel had to make them believe he was on their side was to show he was willing to do things he never would've, aka kill Drogyn. An initiation, if you will. That's not a "douche" move, it's a chess move, there was no room to play nice here. If he could've avoided killing an innocent, don't you think he would have? He was trying to get in bed with evil, it makes sense evil would want blood in exchange for a membership.

If Angel didn't stab Lindsey in the back, Lindsey would've stabbed Angel. Again. We all know this yet Angel is a douche over it and Lindsey gets sympathy? Wazzup wit dat?

To whomever said that Lindsey might do something in the future and Angel knew about it meant that he could be ready to handle it when it came ... Why? You're sure he could? That's silly. Nip it in the bud before the bud nips you. Maybe Lindsey would've succeeded the next time, why chance that?

If Angel was in a crap situation he's got no one to blame but him self, he sold out, he couldn't possibly be naive to think that W&H were going to give up doing what they done since the begining which is evil. In fact in Home he admits how much of a bad idea it would be to join W&H. Yes ,killing an innocent to give him out of a situation which he put himself in is a douche move. Angel whole story is about atoning for evil and trying to redeem himself, so yeah hypocrite move, and he can't possibly think its okay for him to take another man's life, its not his job to punish, its to help the helpless which can't be done by murdering people.Angel is season 1 also stated how you aren't suppost to choose who soul deserves to be saved. Angel himself has in fact done evil several times seasons 2, 5, 8 so its very likely might do evil again so do you support killing him too then?

 

[Zeppo]

If Angel was in a crap situation he's got no one to blame but him self, he sold out, he couldn't possibly be naive to think that W&H were going to give up doing what they done since the begining which is evil.

Not gonna make excuses for him but there is a saying about keeping your enemies close, or another one about the belly of the beast. They've also been fighting them for years and how much of a dent did they do to the company? Maybe try joining them and converting them? They did do good at W&H. There's many good reasons as well as bad to join W&H. There's many good and bad reasons to NOT join W&H as well. It's not about being naive, they always talked about being precautious.

In fact in Home he admits how much of a bad idea it would be to join W&H. Yes ,killing an innocent to give him out of a situation which he put himself in is a douche move.

Home is the same episode he decided to take it over as well. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't recall it ever being mentioned that Angel was given the honor of deciding who his sacrifice would be for his initiation. Angel let Fred die to save thousands. She was an innocent, yeah? How many other innocents were to suffer if W&H/Black Thorn got their way? Sacrifice one innocent to save the rest, doesn't sound douchey to me. Sounds tragically heroic.

Angel whole story is about atoning for evil and trying to redeem himself, so yeah hypocrite move, and he can't possibly think its okay for him to take another man's life,

Angel blurs the line of what a "hero" is. Actually, everyone in this these shows do. His journey to redemption meant he'd hafta do things others couldn't (like not be selfish over Fred"˜s fate). Buffy killed many humans in Spiral who threatened all of their lives after she warned them to stay away. Angel gave Lindsey so many chances and mercy already. When do they start drawing the line on being nice, Saturday-cartoon hero? Lindsey constantly threatened them and was a flip-flopper. You wouldn't want a shade of gray on your side in the fight of your life, neither did Angel. Yet he's a douche.

Also, Angel wouldn"˜t of thought it was OK. (For example: ) Do you think he thought it was OK to act like a power-corrupted ass-boss and hurt his friends right before he was forced to reveal the plan to them? No, he had to do it to make the beast (of the belly they were in) believe it.

its not his job to punish, its to help the helpless which can't be done by murdering people.Angel is season 1 also stated how you aren't suppost to choose who soul deserves to be saved.

I think Angel has a right to save his own soul from becoming dust. It's his job to save people, yes? How can he do that if he's dead? Protect the world but not yourself? I don't get it.

Lindsey's bad outweighs his good, Angel's (not Angelus's) good outweighs his bad. I doubt anyone would disagree. Plus, if Lindsey was in charge and the one with the weight of the world on his shoulders, he'd do the same. Don't tell me he wouldn't. They were one another's foil. Nip it in it bud before the buds nips you again.

Dialogue from Dead End:

Angel: ... I'm just here to say 'bon voyage' - don't come back."
Lindsey: "To L.A.? - Nah. - You can have this place."

He had his zillionth warning and even he agreed with it.

If Lindsey hadn't of stuck his nose back in LA do you honestly think Angel would've done anything to him? No. Yes, Angel got himself into a crap situation but it was HIS situation and Lindsey walked into it. No one invited him.

Angel himself has in fact done evil several times seasons 2, 5, 8 so its very likely might do evil again so do you support killing him too then?

I'm not sure of the evil you speak of in Season 2 unless you're talking about the evil laywer buffet but they were human monsters. Bad mistake? Maybe. Yet Angel is always atoning for his mistakes and obviously sometimes makes them as he redeems himself. Is Lindsey atoning for his past? I don't think so, he was always part of the problem not the solution. Angel always was part of the solution.

(Don't know enough about the comics to comment on season 8, except that it hasn't ended yet and we don't know what's going on totally.)

 

[Nikkolas]

I just want to point out Lindsey's whole return was not without good intentions.

LINDSEY
Who is this? Who is this? I came to fight the vampire with a soul. Guess you shouldn't have sold it, huh? Look at you, from champion to pathetic corporate puppet in just a few months. You used to have fire in your heart.
Now all you got in there is that big honkin' sword. How's that feel, champ?

He's no different than Buffy or the other unnamed heroes who thought Angel had been corrupted. (such as the people who might have sent the cyborg/robot disguised as Wes' dad)

Lindsey is of course not all that heroic. No one is saying he is. But he has come a long way since Season 1 in terms of redeeming himself. Angel just kind of ignored that all.

 

[citiegal17]

Home is the same episode he decided to take it over as well. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t recall it ever being mentioned that Angel was given the honor of deciding who his sacrifice would be for his initiation. Angel let Fred die to save thousands. She was an innocent, yeah? How many other innocents were to suffer if W&H/Black Thorn got their way? Sacrifice one innocent to save the rest, doesn’t sound douchey to me. Sounds tragically heroic.

Wasn't talking about Fred's death that was different, the death I was refering to was Drogyn's. Drogyn was in danger because Angel used him, and Angel murdered him to bail himself out of the situation he put himself in with W&H and the Black Thorn. Really doesn't matter if he wasn't count on murdering an innocent, its the fact he did it anyway. Also the point I was trying to make about Home is Angel was well aware of the dangers going to W&H would cause, so thats why it should come as not surprise at all what a horrible mistake it would be, one of consequence of this was in fact Fred's death. Also by pissing W&H by killing the Black Thorn caused the whole city of LA to go to hell so more innocents suffered, Angel was well aware in that situation to the most they were accomplishing was just to say **** you to W&H.

I think Angel has a right to save his own soul from becoming dust. It’s his job to save people, yes? How can he do that if he’s dead? Protect the world but not yourself? I don’t get it.

Lindsey's bad outweighs his good, Angel's (not Angelus's) good outweighs his bad. I doubt anyone would disagree. Plus, if Lindsey was in charge and the one with the weight of the world on his shoulders, he'd do the same. Don't tell me he wouldn't. They were one another's foil. Nip it in it bud before the buds nips you again.

Dialogue from Dead End:

I think you missed my point about saving souls, Angel in season 1 wouldn't pick and choose who saved, and he had no right to robb Lindsey of the chance it makes him a hypocrite because he himself is seeking redemption. Also I don't believe in weighing people's good and bad against each other,because no one good or bad deeds give them the right to take a life.Doesn't matter what Angel and Lindsey said in Dead End doesn't give either of them the right to take a person life, and honestly both of the would have been better off if they have listened to each other. Angel didn't listen to what Lindsey said in Dead End either he played into W&H games. Also Angel was in no immediate threat from Lindsey, and neither was anyone else, so its cold blooded murder, so all he is doing is nipping a hypothetical bud that may not exist.

 

[FetalPig]

As for Angel killing Lindsey, it's clear why he did it.

He's the world's biggest hypocrite.

I agree. Lindsey is a bit of a hypocrite. (jk)

But in an effort to stay on topic:

Angel wasn't corrupted. More like un-corrupted. He was in danger of being corrupted and Cordelia made a deal with the PsTB to set him back on track. Hamilton and (I think, Lindsey) both tell Angel that the Senior Partners don't operate directly on the world and they have a much longer range game plan. They make their moves through human or demon pawns. Cordelia showed Angel who these pawns were - the members of the circle.

It's unclear whether Lindsey was included in the vision ( I think probably not) but he (Lindsey) did want to be part of the circle. That was his goal. Power. He learned everything he could about the Senior Partners so he could (try to) beat them at their own game, so therefore was absolutely corruptible. No matter what the outcome of any battle the Senior Partners would ultimately control Lindsey, if he were to survive.

This is why Angel needed to know exactly what Gunn replied when Hamilton offered him his freedom in the basement. Because there's been a question over how much of a deal Gunn is prepared to make for his own ends.

The Partners had placed Lindsey in a 'holding cell' type existence - because they still had plans for him. I reckon this is important in the grand scheme of things.
Plus Lorne heard him sing. And agreed to execute him .. so basically it was sound logic/tactics etc.