Question Spike’s decision to get a soul

[Guy]

I don't think it's naïve. There's always a line people don't cross, even in the real world. Also I don't think Spike rapes because he'd consider it "cheating" on Dru which is something he wouldn't do (even though rape is about power rather than sex).

If Spike's only reason to not rape is that it would be cheating, then it makes sense that he'd have no problem being rape-y with Buffy. After all, she's his woman right? At least in his soulless mind.

Spuffy was completely twisted from the word go and there were no clear boundaries set in their relationship. IMO Spike became OOC as soon as the Spuffy plotline took hold. When you compare how Spike acted with Drusilla to how he acted with Buffy, it's like two different characters

Of course the relationship is different - that's because Buffy and Dru are incredibly different people. Dru was a soulless, insane vampire, while Buffy is a human woman with a strong sense of morality. That's not Spike being OOC, that's just a natural evolution of his character - when he switches from an environment of soulless vampires to an environment of humans, he'd obviously be different.

Angelus may have taught Spike the ropes to being a vampire but he would've carved out his own style separate from Angelus. Spike was still very William like in the early days and hopelessly devoted to Dru. Angelus was more of the torture them and kill them slowly type whereas Spike preferred quick kills for the rush. Angelus may have taught torture but I don't think he would've taught Spike rape. He may have tried but I think Spike would've declined and I don't think it is naïve to believe that. In "The Girl in Question", Angelus offered Spike the bride and Spike turned the offer down because he'd rather be hunting with Dru instead.

The only way I can describe it is that if Angelus chose to rape, Spike wouldn't condemn him for it but Spike wouldn't do rape himself because he's not into that type of thing. He'd rather be killing with Dru.

Spike doesn't like to torture his victims? When Spike finds Buffy in 'Halloween', and she's still in her princess persona, Spike definitely "plays with his prey" the way Angelus would: "Look at you. Shaking, terrified. Alone. Lost little lamb. I love it." And if Spike was never into torture, then why did he get his name from torturing people with railroad spikes? I mean, Spike's a vampire, and vampires have an innate sadism. That's just how it is.

Even when Spike rejects Angelus' bride in TGIQ - The very fact that Angelus offers it implies that Spike would sometimes take him up on the offer.

In later seasons the "I'm evil" front was full of bravado but wasn't actually true. Kind of how Spike gave that speech to Buffy that ended something like "I never liked you anyway and you've got stupid hair" (I can't remember the exact quote but it was after the "Out for a walk, bitch" line). Spike was still trying to pretend he was a big bad with the "I'm evil" excuse even though it so obviously wasn't true.

Sure, Spike tried to change for Buffy, and he did change a lot, But he was still soulless. He still tried to kill a woman the moment he thought his chip didn't work in 'Smashed'. He still had no conscience. The only morality he had was a cheap imitation of what he saw in the scoobies, and his old romantic philosophy from the 1800's.

Angelus was always treated by the show as a different entity to Angel, the distinction was always clear. Spike never got that distinction.. You're right that it should be a "together or not at all" situation- they're either the same person regardless of soul status or they're not but one can't be treated one way and the other treated another way. However, that's exactly what happened. Angelus and Angel are treated as two separate characters (when Angel loses his soul, Angelus is "set free" until Angel can be restored via getting his soul back) whilst Spike is still treated as Spike regardless of whether he has a soul or not.

Not really. Sure, Angel likes to hide behind the Angel/Angelus distinction, but if you look at their behaviour, there's really no difference - they both reacted to ensoulment by going kinda crazy, and they both eventually learned to live with it (Spike learned much faster, of course, because Buffy helped him), and they both still have a lot in common with their soulless selves - they still have the same basic personality. Angel still likes ballet like Angelus, and Angel still has the affinity to painting that Angelus had, and Angel still likes blondes like Angelus, etc... The only difference between Angel and Spike's reactions to souls are because of the differences in their original personalities.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

If Spike's only reason to not rape is that it would be cheating, then it makes sense that he'd have no problem being rape-y with Buffy. After all, she's his woman right? At least in his soulless mind.

Spike was never "rape-y" with Dru when she was "his" woman so why would he be "rape-y" with Buffy?

Of course the relationship is different - that's because Buffy and Dru are incredibly different people. Dru was a soulless, insane vampire, while Buffy is a human woman with a strong sense of morality. That's not Spike being OOC, that's just a natural evolution of his character - when he switches from an environment of soulless vampires to an environment of humans, he'd obviously be different.

But Spike was very tender towards Dru, he would always do his best to keep her happy. My point about Spike acting the way he did with Buffy being different about how he acted with Dru isn't about the two different women, it's about Spike and how the love, care and devotion he displayed in one relationship didn't carry over into his subsequent relationship (Not counting Harmony relationship because he didn't love her). It attests to how twisted Spuffy really was then if it could turn someone who displayed such love and tenderness in one relationship into someone who was only out for what they could get from the other person.

Spike doesn't like to torture his victims? When Spike finds Buffy in 'Halloween', and she's still in her princess persona, Spike definitely "plays with his prey" the way Angelus would: "Look at you. Shaking, terrified. Alone. Lost little lamb. I love it." And if Spike was never into torture, then why did he get his name from torturing people with railroad spikes? I mean, Spike's a vampire, and vampires have an innate sadism. That's just how it is.

Spike was about to bite Halloween Buffy after he said that line, he was enjoying the moment of the slayer being in such a vulnerable position but I wouldn't say he was playing with his prey, certainly not like Angelus would.

I never said Spike was never into torture, I said he wasn't into rape. Yes Spike does tend to go for quick kills but obviously he does engage in torture from time to time (although that could be because he has vendettas against certain people which is why he tortures those specific people hence why he got his name rather than doing it as a general thing. We never really got much on Spike's time as a vampire so we don't really know if he was torturing for a reason and the brutality is what earned him his name or if he did it just because he was in the mood).

Even when Spike rejects Angelus' bride in TGIQ - The very fact that Angelus offers it implies that Spike would sometimes take him up on the offer.

Spike was still in the very early days of his vampiredom and spent the majority of that time with Dru. When Spike turned the bride down in favour of being with Dru, that's what inspired Angelus to sleep with Dru in order to teach Spike a lesson.

Not really. Sure, Angel likes to hide behind the Angel/Angelus distinction, but if you look at their behaviour, there's really no difference - they both reacted to ensoulment by going kinda crazy, and they both eventually learned to live with it (Spike learned much faster, of course, because Buffy helped him), and they both still have a lot in common with their soulless selves - they still have the same basic personality. Angel still likes ballet like Angelus, and Angel still has the affinity to painting that Angelus had, and Angel still likes blondes like Angelus, etc... The only difference between Angel and Spike's reactions to souls are because of the differences in their original personalities.

The show treated Angel and Angelus as two different characters regardless of the actual similarities between the two.

 

[Zenseem]

I'm kinda late and lost in this discussion (I'm new here and still finding out how things work in here) but I do think Spike - at first - got his soul for selfish reasons (he did try to rape her because he could tell that deep down she felt the same way as he did for him and it was like an episode before). I mean, when he was soulless he never really did things for Buffy because that would make her happy and he'd be satisfied - although what he did for Buffy and Dawn by not telling Glory about the key was quite selfless -, he did them because in his mind it'd make her realize that, for some reason, she should be with him.

But I like the fact that even soulless Spike were still willing to a painful test just to win a soul and somehow make her happy (I guess) and all the souled Spike wanted was to see her happy, showing that both Spikes are quite alike.

That's why I like Spike so much: he's moved by passion and feelings. His instincs get in the way of his choises and it seems to work out just fine for him.

 

[Guy]

Spike was never "rape-y" with Dru when she was "his" woman so why would he be "rape-y" with Buffy?

Well, that's where we differ. I definitely think that Spike was rape-y toward Dru.

But Spike was very tender towards Dru, he would always do his best to keep her happy. My point about Spike acting the way he did with Buffy being different about how he acted with Dru isn't about the two different women, it's about Spike and how the love, care and devotion he displayed in one relationship didn't carry over into his subsequent relationship (Not counting Harmony relationship because he didn't love her). It attests to how twisted Spuffy really was then if it could turn someone who displayed such love and tenderness in one relationship into someone who was only out for what they could get from the other person.

But Spike WASN'T tender toward Dru. Again - "I'll find her, wherever she is, tie her up, and torture her - until she likes me again". Maybe Dru was cool with this, because she liked torture, but it still means that Spike used to be rough with his lovers before Buffy. And with Buffy it got even MORE twisted, because unlike Dru, Buffy didn't like those things. And Spike didn't know how to react to that change.

I never said Spike was never into torture, I said he wasn't into rape.

Which was never established. With vampires, the natural assumption is that they rape. That's just what vampires do. With Spike, we were never given any reason to believe he wouldn't rape. The only possible reason I can see is that he wouldn't rape because he would consider it cheating on Dru... And with Buffy in 'Seeing Red', that wouldn't be a problem for him, because it's not cheating if he's doing it to the woman he loves.

The show treated Angel and Angelus as two different characters regardless of the actual similarities between the two.

No, the show didn't. Some of the characters treated Angel and Angelus as different, and some of the OTHER characters treated them as the same person, and there was never any reason to think that either side was fully right.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Well, that's where we differ. I definitely think that Spike was rape-y toward Dru.

Can you give examples?

But Spike WASN'T tender toward Dru. Again - "I'll find her, wherever she is, tie her up, and torture her - until she likes me again". Maybe Dru was cool with this, because she liked torture, but it still means that Spike used to be rough with his lovers before Buffy. And with Buffy it got even MORE twisted, because unlike Dru, Buffy didn't like those things. And Spike didn't know how to react to that change.

Spike may have engaged in rough play with Dru but he was still tender towards her such as in School Hard when he's trying to get her to eat something. He very much wants to keep her happy such as when he snaps about the dead bird because Dru isn't listening to him about the dangers of going out, but the moment she starts making that whining noise, he's offering to get her a new bird to cheer her up (I think Dru know exactly what she's doing with that noise, she's not stupid.)

Which was never established. With vampires, the natural assumption is that they rape. That's just what vampires do. With Spike, we were never given any reason to believe he wouldn't rape. The only possible reason I can see is that he wouldn't rape because he would consider it cheating on Dru... And with Buffy in 'Seeing Red', that wouldn't be a problem for him, because it's not cheating if he's doing it to the woman he loves.

We saw Spike turn down the bride (which would've been rape) in favour of spending time with Dru, so I do think he would've likely considered rape as cheating on Dru. Also by that logic, it would've meant that Spike never raped before his attempt on Buffy because he was with Dru from his siring to season 3 then he got the chip in season 4 which prevented him from harming humans.

No, the show didn't. Some of the characters treated Angel and Angelus as different, and some of the OTHER characters treated them as the same person, and there was never any reason to think that either side was fully right.

Except that the show was based around Buffy's pov who treated him as different people in which case the audience were supposed to treat Angel and Angelus as different people. The people who treated him as the same identity were villains and therefore the audience weren't supposed to agree with them if you know what I mean. Basically the audience is supposed to support the main character and how they treat people and Buffy was the main character.

It could be argued that most the vampires Buffy slayed were only eating to survive because if they didn't they would starve. However, that puts Buffy's slaying in a morally grey area. Therefore the issue is never addressed as Buffy is meant to be presented as a force for good.

 

[Guy]

Can you give examples?

The classic example is that line from 'Lovers Walk' - "tie her up, and torture her until she likes me again". I realize that you interpret it differently, but to me it always seemed obvious that Spike meant to do to Dru what he did to Buffy in 'Crush', but even worse. Which might not be an actual, literal rape, but it is definitely rape-y.
Also, Spike just had a very possessive attitude toward Drusilla in general, which leads to a rape-y feeling: If Angel flirts with her, he'd get jealous and angry. If she sleeps with Angelus, he'd knock her out and kidnap her so she'd only be with him. If she leaves him, he'd torture her until she likes him again. And so on...

Also, maybe I'm just weird, but I was always a little creeped out by the way he TOUCHED her... I don't know, it seemed like a POSSESSIVE touch, not like a normal sign of affection.

Even in promos:

I mean, they're a great, entertaining couple, but they're also creepy as hell.

Spike may have engaged in rough play with Dru but he was still tender towards her such as in School Hard when he's trying to get her to eat something. He very much wants to keep her happy such as when he snaps about the dead bird because Dru isn't listening to him about the dangers of going out, but the moment she starts making that whining noise, he's offering to get her a new bird to cheer her up (I think Dru know exactly what she's doing with that noise, she's not stupid.)

Sure. And Spike also had many tender moments with Buffy. He treated her very gently after she came back from death, he did his best to behave politely in 'Hell's Bells' for her, he stopped Buffy from commiting suicide in the musical, etc... Spike didn't want Buffy to suffer. Well, not after he fell in love with her, anyway. Even after the attempted rape, Spike is clearly shocked by his own actions, and it seems clear that he didn't THINK he was hurting her.

We saw Spike turn down the bride (which would've been rape) in favour of spending time with Dru, so I do think he would've likely considered rape as cheating on Dru.

We also saw Spike talk about what he did to "girls Dawn's age", so... There's no conclusive evidence, but I'm inclined to believe he did rape during his soulless days. Probably not as much as Angelus, but still.

Also by that logic, it would've meant that Spike never raped before his attempt on Buffy because he was with Dru from his siring to season 3 then he got the chip in season 4 which prevented him from harming humans.

Again, it's possible, but even if it's true - it wouldn't stop Spike from trying to rape Buffy. Because that wouldn't be infidelity.

Except that the show was based around Buffy's pov who treated him as different people in which case the audience were supposed to treat Angel and Angelus as different people. The people who treated him as the same identity were villains and therefore the audience weren't supposed to agree with them if you know what I mean. Basically the audience is supposed to support the main character and how they treat people and Buffy was the main character.

It could be argued that most the vampires Buffy slayed were only eating to survive because if they didn't they would starve. However, that puts Buffy's slaying in a morally grey area. Therefore the issue is never addressed as Buffy is meant to be presented as a force for good.

I think that the show was never so black & white. Sure, Buffy is the protagonist, but there are many times when we're NOT supposed to agree with her. In the musical, for example, Buffy tries to commit suicide, but the show obviously doesn't want us to agree with her on that.

Also, it wasn't only villains who treated Angel and Angelus as one and the same. Angel himself usually didn't make that distinction, and Angel was also a protagonist. And Xander also didn't make the distinction. And Giles, and Riley, and many others. In fact, in the early seasons, almost no one referred to Angelus as a different person. "I am Angel, at last", "You're still the only thing he thinks about", "I was going through a phase", "Angel's a killer", etc... People started to refer to Angel and Angelus as different people more in the later seasons of AtS, and I always thought that was dumb. And even then, there were many people who still didn't make the distinction.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Also, Spike just had a very possessive attitude toward Drusilla in general, which leads to a rape-y feeling: If Angel flirts with her, he'd get jealous and angry. If she sleeps with Angelus, he'd knock her out and kidnap her so she'd only be with him.

I know I always say this but I think there was more going on with Angelus/Dru than meets the eye. I think Angelus trained Dru to respond to him in that particular way and takes advantage of her, knowingly doing so because he knows how Spike feels about Dru and it winds him up. At the time in season 2, Spike was in a wheelchair and couldn't really do anything about it so Angelus was just rubbing it in his face.

I say this because Spike completely blames Angelus for Dru's "cheating" with Angelus yet when Dru actually cheats with the chaos demon, Spike calls her out on it. This suggests IMO that Spike isn't just turning a blind eye to all of Dru's wrong doing but is actually laying the blame where it is due. I could be wrong of course but that's just my thoughts.

We also saw Spike talk about what he did to "girls Dawn's age", so... There's no conclusive evidence, but I'm inclined to believe he did rape during his soulless days. Probably not as much as Angelus, but still.

I disagree obviously. I think Spike may have been referring to torture rather than rape (not really any better but still). In season 7, girls "Dawn's age" were in high school. In season 2, we saw Spike lure Sheila in a dark alley and he had her tied up so Dru could feed on her. She was a girl "Dawn's age". We'll have to agree to disagree about this point.

 

[Guy]

I know I always say this but I think there was more going on with Angelus/Dru than meets the eye. I think Angelus trained Dru to respond to him in that particular way and takes advantage of her, knowingly doing so because he knows how Spike feels about Dru and it winds him up. At the time in season 2, Spike was in a wheelchair and couldn't really do anything about it so Angelus was just rubbing it in his face.

I say this because Spike completely blames Angelus for Dru's "cheating" with Angelus yet when Dru actually cheats with the chaos demon, Spike calls her out on it. This suggests IMO that Spike isn't just turning a blind eye to all of Dru's wrong doing but is actually laying the blame where it is due. I could be wrong of course but that's just my thoughts.

I'm not sure how this makes Spike less possessive, but I think I agree.

I disagree obviously. I think Spike may have been referring to torture rather than rape (not really any better but still). In season 7, girls "Dawn's age" were in high school. In season 2, we saw Spike lure Sheila in a dark alley and he had her tied up so Dru could feed on her. She was a girl "Dawn's age". We'll have to agree to disagree about this point.

gif from: www.fanforum.com/f312/sheldon-cooper-wil-wheaton-appreciation-because-wil-wheaton-his-friend-63048146/index4.html

 

[Slayerofslayers]

I never found the way Spike touches Dru to be creepy or possessive. Almost every time he touches her in season two (excluding at the end of "Becoming Part Two" when he fights her and knocks her out and excluding when they are being seductive with each other) it's like she is the most precious thing in the world to him. Like when she tells him that she is cold Spike instantly takes off his jacket and puts it around her gently and says "I've got you" or when he kisses her softly on the forehead in "Lie to Me" or when he catches her when she falls in "What's my line, part one." (Those are just a few examples I do have more lol). So I think Spike was always tender with Dru. As for Spike being angry about Angelus flirting with Dru, I think most people would be upset if someone was flirting and seducing their significant other so I don't see that as possessiveness. Spike could have tried to take Dru away many times back when it was the four of them and Angelus would sleep with Dru but he never did. I think that being with Dru just the two of them for a century made Spike not want to share Dru with Angelus anymore once Angelus returned so he got desperate and allied with Buffy so that he could get Angel out of the way and Dru away from Sunnydale.