Spike's attempted rape on Buffy in "Seeing Red"

[Joshua]

How did you react when you saw Spike attempting to rape Buffy in "Seeing Red" when you saw it for the first time?

I think I remember reading where James and Sarah felt really awkward doing that scene and that James had hard time doing it because of the act in the scene.

 

[itssmiletime]

I remember seeing that scene... it felt just awful, uncomfortable, wrong. I never saw Spike the same way again.

It felt kind of out of context and I didn't expect it at all.

 

[ladydorotea]

It was a wonderful inspirational moment that eventually led to so much character development that it made Spike into a Role Model of Masculinity, at least according to some sources. So say we all. And if you dare to argue this you are a hater.

 

[white avenger]

I didn't like the scene at all. I was, in fact, downright angry that the writers would do such a thing for no apparent reason than cheap sensationalism. Looking back on it, however, I do believe that it was a necessary catalyst for the further development of Spike's character. As far as we know, this is the first and only time that any vampire has ever willingly sought to regain his soul in the Buffyverse, and it would have to take something truly monumental to convince him to attempt such a thing.

 

[TotallySpiked]

I hate it. I can't stand to watch it or if I watch the episode, I at least have to mute it at that part. I do agree that from that moment on Spike's character developed a lot more but I hate that it had to come from what he almost did to Buffy. Basically, knowing how much both the actors didn't want to do the scene and how uncomfortable it made them, I choose to pretend (for the most part) that it didn't happen. It seemed pretty OOC (imo) for him even though he was at that time still soulless. I never once thought that he would do that to Buffy. I dislike the writers for choosing to go down that path.

 

[Ianigsy]

I can see that it was dramatically necessary in that you need something to break up Buffy and Spike's destructive relationship and remind the audience that Spike is still a vampire and at this stage doesn't have a soul. It's the kind of want-take-have attitude to sexuality that's also behind some of the atrocities that Angelus perpetrated over the years. I've never really been comfortable with it, though, but then again watching an attempted rape is probably not the sort of thing that should ever be comfortable viewing.

 

[Robb Stark]

It was stupid. That is the only word I can think of to truly describe it. Stupid.

From a writing standpoint, there were plenty of other roads they could have gone down to further Spike's character. This is one of the few times I was really and truly disgusted with Joss Whedon. He proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he has no concept of what rape is and the affect it, even from attempted rape, it can have on a person. Every episode from that point on was solely from Spike's point of view, which was, frankly, insulting. Buffy basically put it aside and forgot about it within an episode.

It was a case of Joss Whedon thinking he's smarter than he actually is. It was stupid.

 

[tec]

Theres a lot going on in that scene and all of Seeing Red.

As an audince we where supposed to feel awkward about it.

as characters Buffy choices in the matter was hers to make each person has to deside for thimselfs what roads to take Spike made up his mind as did Buffy.
Are they the right choices?


But thats the shear brilance of the ep is that there is a lot gong on good and bad Joss puts you one of the series best roller coaster rides there series has to offer your emtionaly drained by the end and then Joss pulls one more bunny out of his hat and rolls credits.

Its a sure bet James and SMG where uncomfertable doing that scence but shows just how good they are at there jobs because then we feel uncomfertable as well.

Is a Sexual assult good thing? Never

 

[Kean]

I found it, and continue to find it, appalling.

Rape is notoriously an issue that is handle poorly on film. It's often glorified, there is victim blaming and the story focuses on the rapist's "pain" rather than that of the attacked. Buffy was no different. That in of itself is appalling. This show of all the shows should have been about Buffy and what her experience was. Instead we get to behold the "glory" of Spike and his attack of Buffy changing him and making him a better man. Or whatever. It's all about him, the attacker, and not about Buffy, the attacked. We simply have no clue how she dealt with it, did it change her? How did she internalise it? Spike gets a soul so no sort of justice can be found and instead we are left with a situation where Buffy must care for him and show him compassion and care. Her feelings, her trauma, forgotten.

I think it is the most irresponsible thing the show ever aired.

 

[tkts]

Buffy deals with a LOT of things that would be severely traumatic to most people, though.

 

[Kean]

And we got to see all if that play out: struggling with being a Slayer, being a child if divorce, falling in love, getting heartbroken, the struggle responsibility, friendships drifting apart, the death of a parent, raising a child, running a home, depression... I could go on.

If your lead character is sexually assaulted her side of the story must be explored. It's the bare minimum.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I honestly found the scene where Spike and Buffy had sex in he upstairs part if the bronze looking at her friends more disturbing, I found that more out of character for Buffy then this as out of character for Spike.

But I did find it horribly to watch. I completely agree with Kean that it became all about Spike and how horrible it was for Spike, which was a stupid way to handle the story.

I didn't find what happened to be all that shocking, I thought it was in character for Spike and what he was, a soulless vampire. He was effectively muzzled with the chip, but he was still the soulless vampire underneath, once that muzzle is removed (being able to attack Buffy) that character reemerges.

This was one of th big turning points for me on Spike, I hadn't been a fan of his since mid season 5, but the fan reaction to this event in particular really turned me off the character if Spike. Over the years I've heard arguments like Buffy brought it on herself because of the way she engaged with Soike before, or how it was a bigger deal for Spike after it happened because you could tell how upset he was, and how out of character it was.

Excuse after excuse in favour of Spike, made this one of he low points of ther series for me.

 

[Icarium]

To be honest, the attempted rape doesn't bother me nearly as much as the many characters, Spike included, who literally got away with murder. I mean, once you see a character sleeping with the person who has tried to kill them multiple times (and has killed thousands of other people and feels no remorse whatsoever) you kind of stop expecting that story to resemble natural human behaviour in any way, shape or form. Or at least I did, many others ship Spuffy like it's going out of style. 🙂 Or Xanya for that matter.

If your lead character is sexually assaulted her side of the story must be explored. It's the bare minimum.

You didn't like the follow-up with Buffy deciding to use Spike as Dawn's babysitter in the next episode? Clearly you do not understand the strong redemption theme in Joss's works. So repeat after me: "the perpetrator is always more deserving of sympathy than the victim, except when he is a moustache twirling evil misogynist like Warren or Caleb". Damn, I almost managed to write that without laughing at its absurdity.

 

[EVIL UU]

I rolled my eyes.

The entire scene is nonsensical sexist garbage. Buffy is disempowered so Spike can attempt to rape her and run away to seek redemption ( may I just vomit? ) instead of being, you know, disemboweled and decapitated by an angry slayer or set on fire by two powerful witches who are in the house, like 10 meters away.

It's bullshit!

 

[white avenger]

Spike gets a soul so no sort of justice can be found and instead we are left with a situation where Buffy must care for him and show him compassion and care. Her feelings, her trauma, forgotten.

I think it is the most irresponsible thing the show ever aired.

Isn't this exactly the same thing that Buffy does with Angel in Season 3? Willow and Anya in Season 7? Xander after his "She said kick his ass" statement in Season 2? (I'm assuming that she did, at some point, learn the truth about that) Angel once again in Season 8? For better or worse, whether she should be or not, Buffy is the sort of person who apparently finds it very easy to forgive people who have done her, her friends, or even the world in general, great potential or actual harm. I'm not really sure that "irresponsible" is the correct word to describe her actions in forgiving Spike, but I am certain of one thing. It wasn't the first time that she ever did something like that, it wasn't the last, and I would be very surprised if she didn't continue doing exactly the same thing in the future.

What DOES surprise me is the fact that, with all of the times, and for all of the offenses that she has so unhesitatingly forgiven so many people, whether we agree with her actions or not, not a single one so far has ever come back to bite her in the ass. Maybe another one of her Slayer abilities is the gift of actually being able to see the better person in everyone. Buffy is the classic anomaly, the vampire Slayer who manages to love not one, but two vampires. The sworn protector of the human race as a collective and the world in general, who finds no trouble forgiving people who not only attempt, but come very close, to destroying the world.

As Giles pointed out in Season 5, "She's a hero, you see." Buffy isn't like the rest of us. She forgives when we probably wouldn't, and sees the good in people when we most likely can't. Call that too trusting or just downright stupid, it's what she does. That, and inspire literally the most unlikely people to become true champions.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

not a single one so far has ever come back to bite her in the ass.

What about Angel? Angel ( and his cohorts ) hunted and murdered the members of her organization, send her girl into a hospital, tortured her best friend, brainwashed her, raped her and tried to destroy the world. Again. None of that would have happened if she'd just stake him the moment he showed up in season 3.

Willow? Same thing, Buffy was sucked into the crap that's Fray-verse and had to fight for her life because Willow got a chance to overdose magic, again.

Spike? He got a chance to help Adam, cause a demon egg apocalypse, rape her and then murdered a bunch of innocents for The First because she allowed him to exist instead of letting him burn in the sunlight after he was neutered with the chip.

Faith? "Who Are You?" happened because Buffy had forgiven Faith in the hospital instead of finishing her off.

See, I think it always comes back to bite her in the ass. Humanity is a weakness in Buffyverse, the less of a monster you are, the more you suffer. The only way for Buffy to find peace and happiness is to stop giving second chances. It's ruthless but it might just work.

 

[Kean]

Isn't this exactly the same thing that Buffy does with Angel in Season 3? Willow and Anya in Season 7? Xander after his "She said kick his ass" statement in Season 2? (I'm assuming that she did, at some point, learn the truth about that) Angel once again in Season 8? For better or worse, whether she should be or not, Buffy is the sort of person who apparently finds it very easy to forgive people who have done her, her friends, or even the world in general, great potential or actual harm. I'm not really sure that "irresponsible" is the correct word to describe her actions in forgiving Spike, but I am certain of one thing. It wasn't the first time that she ever did something like that, it wasn't the last, and I would be very surprised if she didn't continue doing exactly the same thing in the future.

I wasn't seeking to criticise Buffy for forgiving Spike's attempted rape of her within the story, but rather criticising the writer's choice in making that the story. To be quite honest, I think my post makes it clear that my comments are directed at the creative decisions and not at the characters. I have no issue with Buffy forgiving Spike once we are shown how she got there. We know everything about what this situation did to Spike; we know nothing about what it did to Buffy. That is what I am talking about. These narrative choices elevate Spike's experience above that of Buffy. It prioritises the attacker's feelings over the attacked's trauma. Buffy was nothing more than a tool employed to execute a story. It's her show, her attack, and she is not present in the telling of it.

I stand by calling the entire move irresponsible because by telling this story, in this manner the writers of the show contributed to rape culture. "Irresponsible" is about the kindest word I could attribute to this arc.

 

[Icarium]

What DOES surprise me is the fact that, with all of the times, and for all of the offenses that she has so unhesitatingly forgiven so many people, whether we agree with her actions or not, not a single one so far has ever come back to bite her in the ass.

First, as mentioned above, this is so not true. Second - of course she avoided a complete disaster -even the dumbest main character of a TV show manages that, for no other reason than because otherwise the show would end. I doubt the people Angel, Spike, Anya and so on killed after Buffy for one reason or another refused to kill them feel much better just because eventually those characters were "redeemed". It's easy to forgive when somebody else, whom you don't even know, pays the butcher's bill. When even some of your most irresponsible actions somehow work out through the miracle of plot contrivance - "Let's send Vamp!Willow back and hope for the best", "Let's not do anything about Anynka 2.0 for months, I am sure she will generously offer to undo some of the damage if things become seriously because she is such a compassionate soul" or "Let's trust Spike, never mind the whole point of the trigger is that it over rides his free will. When was the last time the trigger forced him to kill anyone, after all? Red shirts? They don't matter as much as my love life!" or "Let's never even try to research the loophole in Angel's curse. What's the worst that could happen?" it's hard to take the whole seriously. In real life there are no magical third option and you can't trust every serial killer you meet. Oh, wait, that's any serial killer, not every.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]

We know everything about what this situation did to Spike; we know nothing about what it did to Buffy.

Of course the show doesn't deal with that issue directly but I think it's worth noting that it took Buffy almost 3 years to be able to trust someone again. Also, I believe the mess that's her personal is a fallout of Spike's rape attempt, people don't understand just how much damage he caused.

 

[Kean]

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]


Of course the show doesn't deal with that issue directly but I think it's worth noting that it took Buffy almost 3 years to be able to trust someone again.

Meaning Satsu? I've fanwanked that too. Which is part of the point I'm making. It fits, but it could be completely wrong. We should know this stuff about her.

Also, I believe the mess that's her personal is a fallout of Spike's rape attempt, he doesn't understand just how much damage he caused.

Same as above.

We shouldn't have to create a narrative for Buffy here. On a show about what it means to grow up and the struggle to just be a person, this should have been one of the most important stories ever told about Buffy's life.