Spike's attempted rape on Buffy in "Seeing Red"

[tec]

No its just one point in Buffys life she did fight him off its not the end all be all of Buffys life. it happend she moved on.

 

[Robb Stark]

No its just one point in Buffys life she did fight him off its not the end all be all of Buffys life. it happend she moved on.

Moved on? They never even addressed it from her perspective. It may as well have just been another fight for all the attention they gave it from Buffy's standpoint, which just goes to show that the people who wrote and conjured up that scene have zero idea about what rape (or attempted rape) is and what it does to a person.

Sorry, but saying things like "well it's just one point in her life" like it's nothing just furthers what a joke that scene, and the idea of it, was.

 

[EffyStonem]

No its just one point in Buffys life she did fight him off its not the end all be all of Buffys life. it happend she moved on.

Believe me, people do not just "move on" from sexual assault. Saying something like this trivialises what Buffy went through and by extension what sexual assault victims everywhere go through.

The attempted rape was a disgusting, badly written and horrendously handled plot-device. Joss Whedon inflicted one of the grossest violations on his heroine and then used it to suit his own purposes. There was no fallout and no repercussions. Buffy is not shown to suffer any form of post traumatic stress (bar one ridiculously brief flashback in Beneath Me) and worse she is denied the chance to call Spike out for what he did to her. Instead, Joss thought it would be perfectly acceptable for her to sing his praises, tell him he is a good man, defend him to others and fall for him, culminating in her being able to sleep in his arms. It should never have happened and Buffy should never have been allowed to return to the arms of someone who violated her in such a way. For a show that prides itself on feminism this is appalling.

 

[white avenger]

We shouldn't have to create a narrative for Buffy here. On a show about what it means to grow up and the struggle to just be a person, this should have been
one of the most important stories ever told about Buffy's life.

Maybe part of the problem is that Buffy leads such an extraordinary life that "one of the most important stories ever told" about that life becomes almost almost a routine thing. We're talking about a girl barely old enough to vote who has died once, almost been assaulted by one of her best friends while he was under a hyena's domination, had to kill her first lover in order to prevent him from destroying the world, found her mother lying dead on a couch, had ANOTHER lover who became fixated with having vampires suck his blood,committed suicide in order to save her sister's life and the world's destruction, been pulled out of heaven and deposited back into a rather harsh reality, plus spends her nights selling hamburgers and fighting demons and vampires. Add to that the fact that, by her own admission, Buffy has been basically doing nothing but following the path of least resistance for the entire season, and the closest that she ever comes to feeling alive anymore is when she is engaged in very violent sex with a vampire.

I'm in no way trying to belittle what happened in that bathroom, but trauma and shock just seem to be normal elements in a Slayer's life, and Buffy has led an extremely harsh life, even by Slayer standards. Maybe Joss just felt that she would be able to handle it better than a normal girl.

That's a poor excuse, I realize, but it sounds at least a little better than that Joss just couldn't truly recognize what something like that would do to a woman.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]

We shouldn't have to create a narrative for Buffy here. On a show about what it means to grow up and the struggle to just be a person, this should have been one of the most important stories ever told about Buffy's life.

Oh, I agree. That's why I stopped reading the comics by the way, I got tired of guessing and masturbating out some sense out of the nonsense.
[MENTION=12223]EffyStonem[/MENTION]

For a show that prides itself on feminism this is appalling.

Girl power? Yes. Feminism? I don't think so.

 

[Robb Stark]

Maybe part of the problem is that Buffy leads such an extraordinary life that "one of the most important stories ever told" about that life becomes almost almost a routine thing. We're talking about a girl barely old enough to vote who has died once, almost been assaulted by one of her best friends while he was under a hyena's domination, had to kill her first lover in order to prevent him from destroying the world, found her mother lying dead on a couch, had ANOTHER lover who became fixated with having vampires suck his blood,committed suicide in order to save her sister's life and the world's destruction, been pulled out of heaven and deposited back into a rather harsh reality, plus spends her nights selling hamburgers and fighting demons and vampires. Add to that the fact that, by her own admission, Buffy has been basically doing nothing but following the path of least resistance for the entire season, and the closest that she ever comes to feeling alive anymore is when she is engaged in very violent sex with a vampire.

I'm in no way trying to belittle what happened in that bathroom, but trauma and shock just seem to be normal elements in a Slayer's life, and Buffy has led an extremely harsh life, even by Slayer standards. Maybe Joss just felt that she would be able to handle it better than a normal girl.

That's a poor excuse, I realize, but it sounds at least a little better than that Joss just couldn't truly recognize what something like that would do to a woman.

I hear you what you're saying, but the problem is that Buffy has always, always been a show that prides itself on being a metaphor for things that have to happen, and that some of us have to deal with, in real life. A lot of times they're very thinly disguised. 99 times out of 100 they're spot on and really accurate and insightful. This one wasn't. And despite the things Buffy's gone through, to take a character who she's trusted her sister's life with (a few times) and have him do that as nothing more than a cheap plot device and then just trivialize it like they did was insulting. Right or wrong, rape is something that isn't dealt with on television often, and there's a reason for it. They could have easily done an arc where Spike's chip malfunctions and he has the chance to feed again.

From the way it was written and the fallout from it, for a show built on everything good and pure about feminism, it came off about as misogynist as you can get. Try to rape a girl because she has says no, feel bad about it, really bad, say you're sorry, stick up for her and she'll forgive you and you can date her again. I know that probably isn't what they were going for and it's obviously more complex with him having a soul, but I think they overestimated, badly, just what that scene says, and what Spike's "development" says.

And I hope you know, this isn't an attack on the character (at least from my view) at all. I like Spike a lot. If anything, he's one of my favorite characters in fiction, and 99.9 percent of the time I think he's a deep, insightful and incredibly funny character. But the writers, and Joss, for all his professed feminism, should have taken a moment and foreseen how that looked, and how it would strike people.

 

[Aloverssoulz]

I was angry. It was the first time I ever yelled at a TV in rage.

Looking back at season 6 now though makes me hate it less and hate Spike more for how he treated Buffy throughout that season. He did the classic guy thing of insult followed by compliment to lower a girls self esteem enough for her to sleep with him. Only instead of "why do you look sad? Is it because your dress makes you look chubby? I think you look great" he says things like "You see, you try to be with them, but you always end up in the dark. With me." Which is why i'm happy that as soon as she re-gained her sense of self in "As Your Were" she dumped his ass.

 

[white avenger]

And I hope you know, this isn't an attack on the character (at least from my view) at all. I like Spike a lot. If anything, he's one of my favorite characters in fiction, and 99.9 percent of the time I think he's a deep, insightful and incredibly funny character. But the writers, and Joss, for all his professed feminism, should have taken a moment and foreseen how that looked, and how it would strike people.

No, I don't think that you were using this as a personal attack on Spike. And I agree, that scene was the all time low for the character. As for Joss' handling of the scene and its aftermath, as in why there wasn't more about how it affected Buffy and less about how it affected Spike, other than what I have previously said, I could only assume that Joss' main concern was with showing Spike being reminded in a very personal and private way that he was, indeed, a monster, something that he had, apparently, forgotten at that point, and his decision to do something about it. In doing that, he completely lost track of what something llke this should have affected Buffy.

As has been pointed out many times in the past, it is extremely difficult, if not totally impossible, for most men to see something like this from a woman's point of view, but that's no real excuse, since Joss had women writers on his team who should have made it more clear to him (see, I've already found a way to blame it on the women. Typical male excuse) or maybe they did, or at least tried to, and he ignored or overruled them. In that case, it's also an all time low for Joss himself.

 

[Aloverssoulz]

which just goes to show that the people who wrote and conjured up that scene have zero idea about what rape (or attempted rape) is and what it does to a person.

But how many people who are raped fight for the lives every night? Buffy might have an advantage over the every day vampire in a fight, but one slip up and she's dead (as shown in "Fool For Love"). An ATTEMPTED rape on Buffy causing a new side story for the rest of the season or season 7 story would have made no sense to me when she faces much worse on a nightly bases, has died twice, and was even dragged out of Heaven at one point. At best it could have shown Buffy having a sleepless night or double checking to see if the bathroom door was locked the next time she wanted to take a bath, BUT she was shot the next morning and had to spend the next two days battling Dark Willow, to which the season ended straight afterwards.

Angel's mental rape of Buffy in "I Will Remember You" is a billion times worse in my opinion (no matter how touching or awesome the episode be). Angel literally stole away what could be seen as Buffy's happiest day of her life (out of the whole of both shows and comics). And i'd say his mental rape of all his friends of Connor at the end of season 4 is worse too (luckily Cordy addressed this and called Angel out on it in "You're Welcome") So, I think the "Seeing Red" scene gets so much attention compared to the others because of how graphic it was made look compared to mental rapes and the Angelus rape and murder of the girl in from of Darla.

If Spike had raped Dawn i'm sure that it would have been written into future episodes and would have been seen as a bigger issue. It would have made more sense too because Spike and Dawn had crap all screen time together in season 7, anyway (seriously, how many times did they speak!?)

 

[ladydorotea]

But how many people who are raped fight for the lives every night?

Implying that when a soldier of either gender is taken as PoV and sexually abused they would feel less traumatized afterwards because to quote from you they are accustomed to 'fight for the lives every night'? Heck of a statement to make - considering these things actually do happen in RL.

mental rape of ... is a billion times worse in my opinion

Have you ever watched Whedon's show named 'Dollhouse' by chance? If you did you would have noticed that it is all centered on every 'doll' character having their memories stolen and restored in basically every episode. I encourage you to go on a rant about how horrible it was for you to watch - a billion time worse to see every character there to wake up in every episode with their memories altered , vs watching a particular character actually physically raped on screen

Spoiler

( I mean Sierra)

I also encourage you to denounce Whedon as writer who centered entire show on exploring a sci fi/fantasy trope of what you call 'rape' - and 'billion times' worse than actual physical attack.

 

[Aloverssoulz]

Implying that when a soldier of either gender is taken as PoV and sexually abused they would feel less traumatized afterwards because to quote from you they are accustomed to 'fight for the lives every night'? Heck of a statement to make - considering these things actually do happen in RL.



Have you ever watched Whedon's show named 'Dollhouse' by chance? If you did you would have noticed that it is all centered on every 'doll' character having their memories stolen and restored in basically every episode. I encourage you to go on a rant about how horrible it was for you to watch - a billion time worse to see every character there to wake up in every episode with their memories altered , vs watching a particular character actually physically raped on screen

Spoiler

( I mean Sierra)

I also encourage you to denounce Whedon as writer who centered entire show on exploring a sci fi/fantasy trope of what you call 'rape' - and 'billion times' worse than actual physical attack.

It is a "heck" of a statement to make, and I stand by it. I've read and watched stories of some former soldiers talking about how killing becomes easier with time and how they become numb to it. Am I saying it would be the same with a person who was raped? That they would become numb to it? No.

Am I saying that Buffy, a woman who has dealt with worse (in my opinion getting MURDERED is worse than rape. Crazy right?), spends every night fighting for her life, and has nearly been MURDERED by her almost rapist a number of times over the years might be able to handle attempted rape a little bit better than the normal everyday person? Yes.

Yeah, I watched Dollhouse, good show that did have a lot of episodes I found very hard to watch. I didn't like seeing all these great people be brainwashed and used as sex slaves and assassins for fat cats with too much free time and sick fetishes. Also, in my opinion if I was FORCED to choose i'd rather have someone take advantage of my body instead of removing, adding, messing around with things in my brain. But that is just me, everyone is different.

Also, Joss is nowhere near as good a writer as he is made out to be sometimes. Most of the best episodes of ANGEL were not written by him, he can't write a male character to save his life and as already pointed out in this thread he has no clue how to handle rape. Dollhouse handled it better than BUFFY, but still failed at times.

 

[ladydorotea]

Also, in my opinion if I was FORCED to choose i'd rather have someone take advantage of my body instead of removing, adding, messing around with things in my brain. But that is just me, everyone is different.

I will agree to disagree on this - but only and exactly because you have not the slightest idea of what kind of a mental trauma is caused by ( even unsuccessful) sexual assault. It is way worse than being 'just' seriously wounded, and many victims claim they would have preferred being dead. Not to mention that there is a huge number of post rape suicides, believe it or not. Turns out that this kind of attack causes not only physical damage but a mental trauma - and especially on stronger 'soldier ' types, but I suggest reading related medical and psychiatric studies instead of relaying on my words here. I think most of this 'mental rape is worse flack' I see on forums really comes from ignorance rather than apologism , so I let it be.

Yes, I agree that Joss/his crew of writers had often no clue to all of the above and often utilized rape as a plot device in the most appalling manner, but this is also very true for the entire sci fi/superhero culture ( comics and movies included). I disagree about Joss not being able to write interesting male characters though.

Also disagree that memory alteration/amnesia tropes/plots should be treated the same way as physical sexual assault ones, if only because memory alteration plot is usually way out there relate-ability wise and is so often used in sci fi to 'reset' the plot that it became somewhat of a writing convenience rather than character violation device.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdentityAmnesia
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeMemories

For example one of my ever favorite RPG's is Planescape Torment, and its entire plot is based on the main PC protagonist being memory-wiped basically every time you get killed. While it is disturbing, I never considered it anywhere close to the character being physically repeatedly raped.

While physical rape - especially when used on television is a uber traumatic plot exactly because it is so very not-fantasy and not dismissible as fake unreal kind of a trauma.

 

[Icarium]

From the way it was written and the fallout from it, for a show built on everything good and pure about feminism, it came off about as misogynist as you can get. Try to rape a girl because she has says no, feel bad about it, really bad, say you're sorry, stick up for her and she'll forgive you and you can date her again. I know that probably isn't what they were going for and it's obviously more complex with him having a soul, but I think they overestimated, badly, just what that scene says, and what Spike's "development" says.

I hate to defend Spike but I still don't see how this is any worse than "try to kill a girl and all her friends, come back later, say you are sorry and you can date her again, everything is forgiven". If you ignore the soul thing, Angel's romance with Buffy is far more problematic than her romance with Spike.

And let's be honest, the show has a very lousy track record when it comes to characters dealing with trauma. Jesse gets killed, Willow and Xander crack jokes, then never mention him again. Spike gets ready to kill (and probably rape too) Willow in "The Initiative", he can't, she starts joking and gets happy he describes her as biteable. She sees him in the next episode and again cracks jokes about it. Is Buffy traumatised by the love spell in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered or Him? Nope. Is Xander traumatised by Faith almost strangling him? Not really. Is Dawn's grief for Tara explored in S7? Nope, she never mentions Tara at all.

So while I don't like that the attempted rape became all about Spike, I don't find it too problematic that Buffy wasn't all that hurt by it all. She had been through so much that yet another betrayal (and not a particularly shocking one, considering what Spike was, after all) was sadly, almost like another day in the office for her. And as non-feminist as that might sound, considering the twisted "romance" affair with Spike, I can totally picture her believing that to some extent the rape attempt was her fault. Should the show have explored this more? Of course, but I can say that about half the traumas depicted in it.

That said, they wouldn't have had to remind the viewers Spike was evil if his characterization that season wasn't so contradictory that one could get whiplash. Nor did they need to have Buffy give him a pass, he could have, you know, escaped and only been spared because of his soul later. Last but not least, the idea that Spike, the guy who has murdered and raped thousands of people, would be appalled by this latest rape attempts is hilariously implausible to me. Buffy ain't that special, you know. Contrary to popular mythology sex with her can't lead to magically growing conscience. Not that Anya doing it through sex with Xander was any better, mind you.

 

[EffyStonem]

Angel's mental rape of Buffy in "I Will Remember You" is a billion times worse in my opinion (no matter how touching or awesome the episode be). Angel literally stole away what could be seen as Buffy's happiest day of her life (out of the whole of both shows and comics). And i'd say his mental rape of all his friends of Connor at the end of season 4 is worse too (luckily Cordy addressed this and called Angel out on it in "You're Welcome") So, I think the "Seeing Red" scene gets so much attention compared to the others because of how graphic it was made look

First of all, Angel did not rape Buffy's mind. When he goes to see The Oracles they say that they will literally turn back the day not that they will erase Buffy's memory of the day. The price that Angel has to pay is to live with the memory of a day that never happened. The Buffy that leaves Angel's office at the end of the episode has not lived the day that Angel remembers and therefore her mind remains untouched.

Secondly, mind rape is nothing compared to physical rape. The trauma that Buffy went through at Spike's hands is not even comparable to mind rape. To have someone sexually assault you, to bear down on you and try to force on you something that should only be given with trust is horrifying and beyond traumatising. It is a complete loss of power, of sense of being. It is the worst violation that can happen to someone and leaves you broken and damaged for years after. The show completely ignores all of this in favour of a romantic storyline and that is disgusting and unforgivable.

 

[Aloverssoulz]

First of all, Angel did not rape Buffy's mind. When he goes to see The Oracles they say that they will literally turn back the day not that they will erase Buffy's memory of the day. The price that Angel has to pay is to live with the memory of a day that never happened. The Buffy that leaves Angel's office at the end of the episode has not lived the day that Angel remembers and therefore her mind remains untouched.

Secondly, mind rape is nothing compared to physical rape. The trauma that Buffy went through at Spike's hands is not even comparable to mind rape. To have someone sexually assault you, to bear down on you and try to force on you something that should only be given with trust is horrifying and beyond traumatising. It is a complete loss of power, of sense of being. It is the worst violation that can happen to someone and leaves you broken and damaged for years after. The show completely ignores all of this in favour of a romantic storyline and that is disgusting and unforgivable.

Angel made a deal with The Oracles to turn back time which removed Buffy's memories (along with everyone elses) of that day without her consent. That to me is mental rape.

How can you state that mental rape is nothing compared to physical? Everything you stated happens with mental rape too: complete loss of power sense of being(even more so if it is on the level of mental rape that Angel had done to his friends to forget Connor and re-write/change the memories slightly of the characters in doing so causing characters to change e.g. season 5 Wesley not being as dark as season 4 Wesley due to his memories being changed and removed)

leaves you broken and damaged for years? Again, depending on the level of the mental rape it could leave you damaged for life, not just years. If it wasn't for Illyria - Wesley would never have found out about his mind being changed and would have remained how he was in season 5. Physical rape might take years to recover from with a chance of never being able to feel yourself again, but there's zero chance of you being yourself again if part of your brain has been wiped out like a harddrive.

Of course this is Buffyverse talk. In real life terms there's not really anything that can be compared to real rape.

 

[Robb Stark]

But how many people who are raped fight for the lives every night? Buffy might have an advantage over the every day vampire in a fight, but one slip up and she's dead (as shown in "Fool For Love"). An ATTEMPTED rape on Buffy causing a new side story for the rest of the season or season 7 story would have made no sense to me when she faces much worse on a nightly bases, has died twice, and was even dragged out of Heaven at one point. At best it could have shown Buffy having a sleepless night or double checking to see if the bathroom door was locked the next time she wanted to take a bath, BUT she was shot the next morning and had to spend the next two days battling Dark Willow, to which the season ended straight afterwards.

Angel's mental rape of Buffy in "I Will Remember You" is a billion times worse in my opinion (no matter how touching or awesome the episode be). Angel literally stole away what could be seen as Buffy's happiest day of her life (out of the whole of both shows and comics). And i'd say his mental rape of all his friends of Connor at the end of season 4 is worse too (luckily Cordy addressed this and called Angel out on it in "You're Welcome") So, I think the "Seeing Red" scene gets so much attention compared to the others because of how graphic it was made look compared to mental rapes and the Angelus rape and murder of the girl in from of Darla.

If Spike had raped Dawn i'm sure that it would have been written into future episodes and would have been seen as a bigger issue. It would have made more sense too because Spike and Dawn had crap all screen time together in season 7, anyway (seriously, how many times did they speak!?)

I'm trying to phrase this politely, and struggling. Look, the only people who say things like "mental rape" are people who have never dealt with rape, never seen rape and what it does and never had to pick up the pieces when someone they love has been raped. Having your memories washed or erased is not even remotely the same thing. Not even close.

Saying what Angel did with Buffy in "IWRY" as being a billion times worse? Come on. Spike attempted to rape Buffy because she said no to him wanting sex. Angel had time rewound because Buffy would have died otherwise. And she told him she wouldn't be able to live her life knowing what might have been. Comparing them, let along saying Angel's was worse, isn't even remotely the same. Connor was having a complete mental breakdown and couldn't deal with reality. Angel ensured that he would have a normal life. Connor would have committed suicide otherwise. Again, not even remotely comparable to Spike.

And saying things like "well she's been through worse" just shows zero understanding. I mean, I get it, it's difficult for people who have never had to deal with rape to comprehend everything it does to a person. It isn't just a drop in the bucket if you've "been through worse". The previous point about soldiers is a great one. And your assumption of how people act after attempted rape is based on nothing more than a Hollywood stereotype and is, to be honest, a little offensive.

 

[EffyStonem]

Angel made a deal with The Oracles to turn back time which removed Buffy's memories (along with everyone elses) of that day without her consent. That to me is mental rape.

Turning back time does not erase memories. Buffy will never remember the day with Angel because by turning back time the Oracles made it so that Buffy had never lived that day therefore her mind remains untouched. If it were merely a case of erasing her memories then the demon would not have come back to life. Her mind was never touched. The day was restarted so that neither of them ever lived it.

And as others have said, trying to say that mental rape is worse than physical rape is insulting.

EXTREME TRIGGER WARNING

Let me tell you what it's like to be raped. Let me tell you about how you are so paralyzed with fear and shame that you can't move. Let me tell you about the pain of someone entering you uninvited, the physical and mental pain that you can't escape from. The agony of lying beneath your attacker, wishing it were over, wishing you could shut off your mind, pass out, black out, anything to escape what is happening to you. Let me tell you about the terror of someone covering your entire body, forcibly holding you down, making you feel like you will never escape, that the moment will never end. And you can scream or cry or try to fight back but it makes no difference.

Now let me tell you about the shame and the humiliation and fear that stays with you for years after, possibly never leaving. Let me tell you how anything can set off the memory - a smell, a sound, you partner reaching out to touch you. Let me tell you about the nightmares that never go away, of waking up in the middle of the night and feeling terrified for no reason, of crying for no reason other than the memory has suddenly slammed you out of nowhere.

Now tell me if you honestly believe that wiping someone's memory is worse than that.

 

[itssmiletime]

I've been rewatching all of season six this week, and I feel I have to say these comments.

TRIGGER WARNING

-Keep in mind: Buffy suffered from clinical depression. The more of season six I watch, the more painfully obvious this is. Spike is manipulative and abusive, and completely takes advantage of Buffy prior to Seeing Red. She expresses her vulnerability. What spike said to Buffy in the Bronze in ''Dead Things'' revolts me so much. He puts on this ''nice guy'' act- he cares for Dawn, helps Buffy fight demons yet when Buffy comes to him at her most vulnerable states, he is vile enough to have sex with her. When Buffy said to spike ''I'm using you'' in that episode with Riley, it was said by the wrong character.

-''Mental Rape'' is an expression I never, ever, ever use. Rape is it's own offence, separate from anything else. It's heinous, revolting and deserving of the strictest punishment. To even attempt to sexually assault someone is so awful and destructive. I don't care about Spike. He got his soul back? Whedon poorly wrote Spike in season 7 as well. For a show that prides itself on Feminism, and the reason myself and so many people started to watch it in the first place, for Spike and Buffy to have a romantic relationship is so insulting.

-If you had to pick a big bad in season 6, who would you pick? For all those who said Warren- he has a soul. Yet he is a murderer, rapist. My point is having a soul doesn't change much. Whenever I read stories about abusive boyfriends / husbands saying sorry or trying to ''make up'' for it, I always think ''it's too late for that.'' So, Whedon: you are going to make one of the villians in season 6 have a soul, and be completely evil, and have a soulless vampire who commits an unforgivable act try to get a soul? That is warped

And finally...
-Buffy may have fought vampires every night, but the aggression of Spike in that scene would have, as previous posters put it, made her just wish it was over, or made her in shock.

 

[Aloverssoulz]

Turning back time does not erase memories. Buffy will never remember the day with Angel because by turning back time the Oracles made it so that Buffy had never lived that day therefore her mind remains untouched. If it were merely a case of erasing her memories then the demon would not have come back to life. Her mind was never touched. The day was restarted so that neither of them ever lived it.

And as others have said, trying to say that mental rape is worse than physical rape is insulting.

EXTREME TRIGGER WARNING

Let me tell you what it's like to be raped. Let me tell you about how you are so paralyzed with fear and shame that you can't move. Let me tell you about the pain of someone entering you uninvited, the physical and mental pain that you can't escape from. The agony of lying beneath your attacker, wishing it were over, wishing you could shut off your mind, pass out, black out, anything to escape what is happening to you. Let me tell you about the terror of someone covering your entire body, forcibly holding you down, making you feel like you will never escape, that the moment will never end. And you can scream or cry or try to fight back but it makes no difference.

Now let me tell you about the shame and the humiliation and fear that stays with you for years after, possibly never leaving. Let me tell you how anything can set off the memory - a smell, a sound, you partner reaching out to touch you. Let me tell you about the nightmares that never go away, of waking up in the middle of the night and feeling terrified for no reason, of crying for no reason other than the memory has suddenly slammed you out of nowhere.

Now tell me if you honestly believe that wiping someone's memory is worse than that.

I have never been raped, but i've seeing how it affects people. My cousin was raped when she was 14 and it messed her up for a long time, but i'm not talking about how it affects other people, i'm talking about out of everything I seen in both BtVS and ANGEL that if I were to choose the worse possible thing to happen to me it'd be someone going into my head without my permission and removing thoughts, memories, and anything that makes me me.

I'll admit i'm a selfish person. I don't look at Seeing Red and try to put myself in Buffy's shoes. If I tried i'd be unable to, but I do know what it feels like to be manipulated, which is why I find Spike's treatment of Buffy throughout season 6 to be far more disturbing to me (how Spuffy fans exist after this season makes zero sense to me). I was wrong when I stated that the mental rape in the show was worse than what happened in Seeing Red, but it is my opinion that I find it much worse to have your brain messed with. One of my biggest fears in life is growing old and developing alzheimer's. When people tell me that the chance of me getting that won't happen till i'm in my 70's it brings me no peace. Which is why from my point of view the most disturbing things Buffy and Angel have done have been mind wipes (I think saying turning back time isn't the same is a complete cop out. She had those great memories and now she doesn't, because of Angel.)

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I hate to defend Spike but I still don't see how this is any worse than "try to kill a girl and all her friends, come back later, say you are sorry and you can date her again, everything is forgiven". If you ignore the soul thing, Angel's romance with Buffy is far more problematic than her romance with Spike.

And let's be honest, the show has a very lousy track record when it comes to characters dealing with trauma. Jesse gets killed, Willow and Xander crack jokes, then never mention him again. Spike gets ready to kill (and probably rape too) Willow in "The Initiative", he can't, she starts joking and gets happy he describes her as biteable. She sees him in the next episode and again cracks jokes about it. Is Buffy traumatised by the love spell in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered or Him? Nope. Is Xander traumatised by Faith almost strangling him? Not really. Is Dawn's grief for Tara explored in S7? Nope, she never mentions Tara at all.

So while I don't like that the attempted rape became all about Spike, I don't find it too problematic that Buffy wasn't all that hurt by it all. She had been through so much that yet another betrayal (and not a particularly shocking one, considering what Spike was, after all) was sadly, almost like another day in the office for her. And as non-feminist as that might sound, considering the twisted "romance" affair with Spike, I can totally picture her believing that to some extent the rape attempt was her fault. Should the show have explored this more? Of course, but I can say that about half the traumas depicted in it.

That said, they wouldn't have had to remind the viewers Spike was evil if his characterization that season wasn't so contradictory that one could get whiplash. Nor did they need to have Buffy give him a pass, he could have, you know, escaped and only been spared because of his soul later.

Yeah, I agree with all of this. The thing about this show, which is quite problematic if you really think about it, is that it's essentially a series of human beings forgiving the despicable actions of the monsters with which they willingly associate despite their instincts. And Buffy, in particular, gets the worst of it. She becomes romantically involved with 2 vampires and must forgive the horrible things they do to her and to her loved ones, so that she can resume a relationship with them.

The show gets around the moral ickiness of it by making the case that a SOUL is the thing that makes all of the difference; that Buffy can and should forgive a vampire for killing her friends and for sexual assault because they didn't have the capacity to do otherwise when they were not ensouled. If you think about it, it's a very problematic message. But I don't think this message is unique to the scene in Seeing Red; we get it starting in season 3 when Angel comes back from hell and they resume their relationship. Buffy is all about tabula rasa with her lovers; what does that tell young women (and men) everywhere?

Personally I choose to mostly ignore all of this, for better or worse. Instead, I willingly accept the romantic notion that each vampire learns from or is motivated by the horrors he's committed, finally, inspired by love for Buffy. I like the silly, far-fetched notion that love for a woman would make a nasty vampire repent and seek out a permanent solution to end his evil ways, even if his only motivation at the time was simply to be with her.

Were this real life, I'd call it naivité. Or, you know, ignorance. But I find it doesn't stop me from enjoying the show. Is that irresponsible? I don't know. I'll have to think about this, more.

I will say, however, that the decision to use an attempted rape as a plot device has never sat well with me. But complete forgiveness following Angel's attempted murder of Buffy and her friends in season 2 really shouldn't be easier to accept. That Buffy chose to forgive the first certainly sets a precedent allowing for the second.