Spike's attempted rape

[The Bronze]

@EVIL UU

Not by a vampire. OK, it happens once in the entire show, in "Killed by Death" and Buffy passes out a minute later because of the illness. That's the only instance of vampire overpowering her. Also, her wounds, injuries, bruises and so on have no effect on her performance. She slays just fine in "Chosen" after receiving a blade through the guts.

Well Luke was holding his own against Buffy in the first episode and Spike himself had the upper hand in School Hard until Joyce interfered. Given that Spike has killed two slayers in straight fights in the past I don't think it's implausible he could overpower Buffy here.

They are loud enough to alarm the entire house, plus, there's also magic.

Yep this seems like a straight up plot hole. Can see why this is frustrating for everyone. Must say I'm quite happy to overlook a few things like this and just go with the flow. There'll be plot holes in just about every TV programme if you look hard enough, especially in a show like Buffy with all the Supernatural and Buffyverse laws.

There's no trust to violate here

I don't think those situations are comparable enough. Look at how different Buffy's reactions are in the He tried. He didn't... and No, but it's safe to say that in his animal state his idea of wooing doesn't involve a Yanni CD and a bottle of Chianti scenes. In "Seeing Red" Buffy's traumatized, in "The Pack" she's making a joke. There's no trauma to cope with in the latter, no situation to handle.

I think that is her reaction but it's just mine interpretation. There's nothing solid enough and this is not something I should be masturbating out just because the franchise doesn't deliver. On one hand the attempted rape is never mentioned but on the other hand Buffy doesn't make love with anybody for 3 years and when Satsu falls for her she doesn't even look for a lover, she's a big, hideous, dateless monster. Alright, she's busy but she's always busy.

I think trust is the main difference in these situations and why I find your explanation to be accurate. The show may not explicitly explain what Buffy is thinking and feeling afterwards but I think you see enough of change based on trust. Like you say she is attacked by Xander, fights him off and then laughs off the attack. So it's not so much the attack in Seeing Red that causes her trauma but who it comes from. Given that a soulless Spike never returns to her life she can never have it out with him. I completely buy into Buffy just becoming less trusting and less interested in a relationship.

@Kean

I think everyone has done a really good job of explaining why this scene is so problematic but I'll throw in my two cents while I'm here. When a show takes on the issue of rape there is an immense pressure and need for them to handle the issue responsibly. Traditionally that hasn't been the case on tv and film. On a show like Buffy I feel that responsibility is doubled because of the demographic of the audiences, which was largely young women. For a great deal of us Buffy had already seen us through adolescence, heart break, divorce, college, friendships, death and the responsibilities of adult life. So, when Spike tries to rape Buffy and we never see what it did to her, that's a huge problem. We never hear her speak on it, by the start of S7 it's like it didn't even happen. The story has stayed with Spike and what it did to him, how it changed him. At this point the show is no longer telling a story about rape, but instead the story itself has contributed to rape culture. Buffy went from a show created to empower women to one that dis-empowered them.

Thank you for explaining that for me. I totally see where you're coming from and I guess the reason I don't feel as strongly against the scene as most on here is that I don't like to overly tie Buffy into real life situations. I think given the nature of the Buffyverse I tend to see the characters as being more resilient than they would be in real life. If you just stop to think of how horrifying the things the Scoobies faced would be if you met them in the real world on top of the amount of death and destruction they witness, then it would be a miracle for any of them to be functioning by the later seasons. Also I feel that applies doubly for Buffy. She spends her entire life under attack. We see her attacked from all angles for the best part of 6 years before the scenes in Seeing Red. The idea that she would move on quickly from an attack she fended off seems entirely believable to me, given that is what we see her doing through out the show. Then as I said above I agree with EVIL UU's take on her having trust issues afterwards which although not said outright makes sense to me.

@Evergreen

I think that this is one of two major moments on BtVS that was so incredibly out-of-context, out-of-character, and poorly executed that I almost don't consider it canon (the other being Xander leaving Anya at the alter). After re-watching the series, I now simply don't think Spike would go to this point to get Buffy. Every time I see this episode or mention of this event, I wince because I think Spike's reputation was permanently damaged from this.

I'm not sure if I should even explain the above statement, because in my head, it's pretty self-explainatory. But if you'd like my reasoning, I'd be glad to try and verbalize it.

I'd love to here your reasoning for this if you don't mind. As far as I can see Spike is a soulless vampire who has killed people for about a century before the show starts and then we see him killing more when he arrives in Sunnydale. I'm not sure how this would make a dent in his reputation.

 

[Kean]

Thank you for explaining that for me. I totally see where you're coming from and I guess the reason I don't feel as strongly against the scene as most on here is that I don't like to overly tie Buffy into real life situations. I think given the nature of the Buffyverse I tend to see the characters as being more resilient than they would be in real life. If you just stop to think of how horrifying the things the Scoobies faced would be if you met them in the real world on top of the amount of death and destruction they witness, then it would be a miracle for any of them to be functioning by the later seasons. Also I feel that applies doubly for Buffy. She spends her entire life under attack. We see her attacked from all angles for the best part of 6 years before the scenes in Seeing Red. The idea that she would move on quickly from an attack she fended off seems entirely believable to me, given that is what we see her doing through out the show. Then as I said above I agree with EVIL UU's take on her having trust issues afterwards which although not said outright makes sense to me.
.

Personally, Buffy being such a fanciful show is exactly why them tackling this issue resonates so strongly with me. I can't relate to monsters killing people, or my boyfriend losing his soul but I can relate, as a woman, to the threat of sexual assault. I've never faced what Buffy did in that bathroom, but I've had a man hold my wrists so tight that I couldn't move and have been pinned to a wall in a club by some fecker telling me "I want it." The threat of monsters isn't real, but the threat of rape is. That's why this matters to me more than anything else the show did, especially because they got it so terribly wrong.

Maybe that's not fair to put that on the show but if you set your show up to be iconic and exist in your viewers lives, you have the responsibility to your audience and the issues you tackle.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12470]The Bronze[/MENTION]

Given that Spike has killed two slayers in straight fights in the past I don't think it's implausible he could overpower Buffy here.

It's implausible because Spike is physically weaker than Buffy and got his ass kicked every time he tried fighting her. You know what this really is? It's sexist bullshit, a female character we know is more powerful than the male attacker is suddenly magically disempowered just so a rape attempt can be used to further said attacker's storyline.

 

[Evergreen]

I'd love to here your reasoning for this if you don't mind. As far as I can see Spike is a soulless vampire who has killed people for about a century before the show starts and then we see him killing more when he arrives in Sunnydale. I'm not sure how this would make a dent in his reputation.

I will do my best:

Yes, Spike was soulless when he arrived in Sunnydale and he had no problems killing anyone and anything.

But when the rape came, it had been two seasons since he got the chip in his head. That's two years he grew from villain to ally, and two years that he grew to love Buffy. It is my interpretation that even when the chip started frizzing out, Spike didn't suddenly morph back into his old ways as William the Bloody. It wasn't like a light switch. He was still soulless, but his attack of Buffy didn't come from the vampire need of blood. It came from passion and hurt and anger and then desperation.

When I say it affected his reputation, I was trying to say that it changed my own perception of his character...so his reputation in my own head. It was a poor choice of words on my part!

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

But why does it have to be the 'absolute worst thing he can do'? Why must the show resort to an extremely obvious evil act? I mean, its not like us viewers, we are stupid or something. Not only does the AR make me throw every single feminist article in existence, every article about how such a scene would effect viewers, the grossness of using rape as a plot-device, every single anti- AR comment I've found on the internet in its face, but also my year 9 drama textbook...

I don't know. Because it was east and controversial? I'm not saying it was a good call on the writer's part, but I get why that's the choice they made. They'd set Spike up up to be so devoted to Buffy, that nothing else would d have made sense, for the context anyway.

In my first post on this thread, I wrote a short list of suitable replacements for Spike getting his soul. To add more: buffy asking Willow to re-ensoul him for a condition for him to hang out with the scoobies, to make giles more comfortable Spike babysitting Dawn, etc. Or in Crush, when Buffy turn him down. So there were other methods for Spike to achieve his soul. The writers could have, you know... thought for longer than five seconds.

None of those scenarios would inspire Spike to get a soul, though because Spike had already been given all those privileges...without a soul. It could be argued at that point he was a part of Scoobies, and Buffy already trusted him with Dawn.

Agreed, though. Bad call on the writer's part.

 

[itssmiletime]

I don't know. Because it was east and controversial? I'm not saying it was a good call on the writer's part, but I get why that's the choice they made. They'd set Spike up up to be so devoted to Buffy, that nothing else would d have made sense, for the context anyway.



None of those scenarios would inspire Spike to get a soul, though because Spike had already been given all those privileges...without a soul. It could be argued at that point he was a part of Scoobies, and Buffy already trusted him with Dawn.

Agreed, though. Bad call on the writer's part.

Well, previous posters described the action as 'necessary' and i wanted to challenge that perception.

Actually, Spike lost alot of privileges after Crush. He was chucked out of the magic box by Giles. Willow de-invited him during Crush. Alot of Buffy's reasonings was his lack of soul. He, thought it would be okay to taser and tag up Buffy, emotionally manipulate her and threaten to kill her via Drusilla. He doesn't notice that he really really, really stuffed up. It had been stressed alot that Buffy was in love with Angel- and would not have if he didn't have a soul. Buffy places a grand emphasis on souls- something she made very clear in Crush.

Although Buffy did trust Dawn in S5- did everyone else though? Giles clearly believes that Buffy isn't thinking straight- evident by her leaving Sunnydale in the world's slowest transport vehicle and saying she'll kill anyone who tries to harm Dawn. I don't see why Xander, Giles, Willow, etc would be more guarded around Spike, he is, after all soulless and made deals with Adam last year and threatened a doctor in order to remove his chip. Why would Giles trust Dawn around Spike? Giles is clearly an intelligent man. He knows the dangers of Spike. So why couldn't Giles, just say to Willow: hey, could you like, give him a soul once I leave Sunnydale? I mean, I don't wanna kill someone who is harmless, but I don't trust him?

 

[The Bronze]

@EVIL UU

It's implausible because Spike is physically weaker than Buffy and got his ass kicked every time he tried fighting her.

But this just isn't true. He was fighting Buffy in School Hard and had the advantage until Joyce stepped in. This scene played out no differently to most of Buffy's fights. She's never shown to have strength like Superman. She normally takes a few hits and then finds a way to win. In this case she's most likely caught off guard because she wasn't expecting it from Spike and then fights him off.

@Kean

Personally, Buffy being such a fanciful show is exactly why them tackling this issue resonates so strongly with me. I can't relate to monsters killing people, or my boyfriend losing his soul but I can relate, as a woman, to the threat of sexual assault. I've never faced what Buffy did in that bathroom, but I've had a man hold my wrists so tight that I couldn't move and have been pinned to a wall in a club by some fecker telling me "I want it." The threat of monsters isn't real, but the threat of rape is. That's why this matters to me more than anything else the show did, especially because they got it so terribly wrong.

Maybe that's not fair to put that on the show but if you set your show up to be iconic and exist in your viewers lives, you have the responsibility to your audience and the issues you tackle.

This makes a lot of sense. I've never been in any of the dangerous situations on the show so I can treat them all similarly. I root for Buffy whatever she's up against and this never stood out for me as being different to the other situations she's exposed to. Certainly see how it strikes a lot closer to home if you've faced something similar.

@Evergreen

I will do my best:

Yes, Spike was soulless when he arrived in Sunnydale and he had no problems killing anyone and anything.

But when the rape came, it had been two seasons since he got the chip in his head. That's two years he grew from villain to ally, and two years that he grew to love Buffy. It is my interpretation that even when the chip started frizzing out, Spike didn't suddenly morph back into his old ways as William the Bloody. It wasn't like a light switch. He was still soulless, but his attack of Buffy didn't come from the vampire need of blood. It came from passion and hurt and anger and then desperation.

When I say it affected his reputation, I was trying to say that it changed my own perception of his character...so his reputation in my own head. It was a poor choice of words on my part!

I see what you mean now. I've always had a different take on Spike's situation. As I said earlier in the thread he is one of my favourite characters in the show but without a soul he's a favourite monster. Funny, clever and dangerous.

I believe that we see Spike adapt to life with a chip rather than actually change in any real way. His focus switches from Drusilla to Buffy and he learns to get by without eating humans. The need for violence is still there which is why he fights with the scoobies, just to be involved in the action. While he's getting a certain amount of what he wants from Buffy he is content enough with his lot in life. Once that changes he tries to take what he wants. That's how vampires operate, want it, take it. I think getting his soul was an act of desperation to get what he wanted. Also I'm not convinced he thought it through properly either. Like someone else said earlier I'm not sure he took it overly seriously. Far as I can tell he assumed he'd come back the same but be able to claim he had a soul now and Buffy should be with him.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

It is my interpretation that even when the chip started frizzing out, Spike didn't suddenly morph back into his old ways as William the Bloody.[/QIOTE]
This is quite literly eqactly what happened. As soon as he though his Chip stopped working after he hits Buffy, he fakes it hirting so she doesn't know and then goes and tries to kill someone...

It wasn't like a light switch. He was still soulless, but his attack of Buffy didn't come from the vampire need of blood. It came from passion and hurt and anger and then desperation.

This is exactly what makes it worse, if it was a vampire thing, it can be explained away as part of his soul. The fact it isn't, it's just part of his personality is the most important part.

Then here's a surprise for you.

Since there isn't any specific, or even obscure explanation, at least as far as I know for Spike's actions I "Beneath You," I will have to resort to what I see and interpret from the scene and build from there (I just know you're gonna love that).

You know you dont have to wait for the writers to tell you what the motive is, you can take meaning from what he actually says.

Even though he appeared to be relatively sane during the part of the episode that I assume you're referring to, I doubt that he was thinking quite rationally. I think that he was trying to suppress his soul in some way, pretend and act as though it really wasn't there. If he could suppress it, he could somehow escape the feelings of guilt that it gave him. It would be somewhat similar to someone trying to suppress a great grief long enough to get through some difficult task. Imagine an actor who receives word just before going on stage that a member of his family had just died. There's no time to replace him, so he puts his grief aside just long enough to play his part, then collapses in tears the moment he walks off stage. That's a poor analogy, I know, but its the closest that I can come.


I think that it was Spike's plan to not let anyone, especially Buffy, know what he had done, possibly as some sort of self induced punishment, at least until he had gotten himself under some sort of permanent control. The pain from his chip when he staked the man who had been a Graboid destroyed what control he has been using, plunging him back into his ranting, incoherent state, and, in so doing, let the kittens out of the bag.

He didn't want to tell her, he says hiding didn't work, then he tells her everything, how he went to get a soul so she'd admit she loves him. He wasn't struggling to hide it all, once she says he has a soul he then explains his rational behind it.

Seriously, so according to your logic, the script for the last 3 episodes of season 6 dont matter cuz their just misdirect, and the script from Beneth You doesn't matter cuz he was babbling. So nothing Spike actually says matters?

That is my interpretation of what went on in that episode. If you are sitting on some hard evidence to the contrary, feel free to bring it out. As I said, as far as I can remember, there never was any statement anywhere specifically explaining Spike's actions there.

I'm not posting them all again, but every quote from Spikes mouth is hard evidence, and I've already posted them multiple times. The writers don't have to explain everything, their writing does that for them.

There is a difference between seeing dialog and interpreting it in multiple ways, it's another to see the dialog, decide you dont like it and chuck it out to fill in your own fantasy of it. If other people did that, the cookie dough speech would basically have been a marriage proposal.

 

[janas]

Given that Spike has killed two slayers in straight fights in the past I don't think it's implausible he could overpower Buffy here.

But, here there was no the Slayer, there was only the woman. Buffy here it was as helpless as any other girl, because here there wasn't in play the salvation of the world or kill the villain. Here there was only one ragaza who said "NO" ..and the aggressor did not accept that answer. The fact that Buffy is stronger than Spike, has only served to prevent the attempted rape hasn't been transformed into real rape.

 

[The Bronze]

@janas

But, here there was no the Slayer, there was only the woman. Buffy here it was as helpless as any other girl, because here there wasn't in play the salvation of the world or kill the villain. Here there was only one ragaza who said "NO" ..and the aggressor did not accept that answer. The fact that Buffy is stronger than Spike, has only served to prevent the attempted rape hasn't been transformed into real rape.

This was pretty much what I was getting at in a previous post. Not suggesting that Spike was the stronger of the 2 just that it wouldn't be impossible for him to over power Buffy even if it was only temporary.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=10426]janas[/MENTION]

But, here there was no the Slayer, there was only the woman. Buffy here it was as helpless as any other girl

Buffy is not any other girl. She's a supernatural being with an instinctual drive to hunt vampires and to protect humans. This is not something she can turn off, it's what she is. Turn her into a cave woman and she will still jump into fire to save humans because that's what her instincts tell her to do. It's Spike that's her prey, it's not the other way around.

Really, the idea that Buffy is just a normal girl holds no water.

 

[janas]

[MENTION=10426]janas[/MENTION]


Buffy is not any other girl. She's a supernatural being with an instinctual drive to hunt vampires and to protect humans. This is not something she can turn off, it's what she is. Turn her into a cave woman and she will still jump into fire to save humans because that's what her instincts tell her to do. It's Spike that's her prey, it's not the other way around.

Really, the idea that Buffy is just a normal girl holds no water.

At that moment, what the writers wanted to highlight, it was not his strength, but his weakness. She has undergone a aggression that couldn't cope with physical force, because it was an emotional aggression ..after only managed to free herself, showing his strength. In other circumstances, she would alienate her attacker very easily, but not in that moment. It was almost naked in her bathroom, thinking she was alone. The aggressor raped a moment of privacy of Buffy and it was a very intimate moment. The visual image is not intended to highlight the Slayer. Here was a woman, with her ​​nakedness and her vulnerability. In addition, the lack of music, was to indicate the drama of the scene nude and crude.

 

[Sweet J]

Buffy raped Spike, and its not solely one way.

For a different take on the usual buffy is the victim trope.

Simple question: Do you think a soulless vampire has the emotional maturity to be considered a consenting human when entering into a sexual relationship with an ensouled adult woman? Or am I the only one unconvinced about who really raped who first in the Buffy+Spike relationship?

Being soullessness makes Spike unable to feel the same kind of emotions that adult humans feel, being completely devoid(not simply unfeeling towards) the love and compassion that are part of that empathy represented by the "soul". Henceforth: Buffy got into a relationship with something that was not an adult human.

Also Remember, as Giles explained in season 1. A (unensouled) vampire is like an animal. Therefore buffy had sex with an animal/preformed beastiality.

Also remember how Spike doesn’t mind or even recognize how much Buffy has abused him until he gets his soul back. This is evidence of the fact that he was not an actual adult person, as we humans define it, before this.

Now sure you might say this is all metaphor, but it seems pretty clear cut to me. Buffy began having sex with a non-human animal. She liked this until she decided it was disgusting. That animal then tried to force itself on her. Everyone appears to focus on the latter part, over-identifying with real life human rape, but that's not what I saw. It is analogous to a woman having sex with a monkey and then that monkey attempting to force itself on her. You ask, who's to blame? Well, isn't the woman not the party with the sense in this relationship?

The attempted rape of Xander by Faith however is entirely a different story. As is Faith pretending to be Buffy and having sex with Riley - another example of rape, as she didn't tell Riley who she actually was. Riley was not consenting.

Similarly in Angel, Cordelia was raped by Wilson. I had sympathy for her character, but not a whole lot of sympathy for Buffy in this case.

 

[itssmiletime]

Buffy raped Spike, and its not solely one way.

For a different take on the usual buffy is the victim trope.

Simple question: Do you think a soulless vampire has the emotional maturity to be considered a consenting human when entering into a sexual relationship with an ensouled adult woman? Or am I the only one unconvinced about who really raped who first in the Buffy+Spike relationship?

Being soullessness makes Spike unable to feel the same kind of emotions that adult humans feel, being completely devoid(not simply unfeeling towards) the love and compassion that are part of that empathy represented by the "soul". Henceforth: Buffy got into a relationship with something that was not an adult human.

Also Remember, as Giles explained in season 1. A (unensouled) vampire is like an animal. Therefore buffy had sex with an animal/preformed beastiality.

Also remember how Spike doesn't mind or even recognize how much Buffy has abused him until he gets his soul back. This is evidence of the fact that he was not an actual adult person, as we humans define it, before this.

Now sure you might say this is all metaphor, but it seems pretty clear cut to me. Buffy began having sex with a non-human animal. She liked this until she decided it was disgusting. That animal then tried to force itself on her. Everyone appears to focus on the latter part, over-identifying with real life human rape, but that's not what I saw. It is analogous to a woman having sex with a monkey and then that monkey attempting to force itself on her. You ask, who's to blame? Well, isn't the woman not the party with the sense in this relationship?

The attempted rape of Xander by Faith however is entirely a different story. As is Faith pretending to be Buffy and having sex with Riley - another example of rape, as she didn't tell Riley who she actually was. Riley was not consenting.

Similarly in Angel, Cordelia was raped by Wilson. I had sympathy for her character, but not a whole lot of sympathy for Buffy in this case.

Firstly, whenever Spike and Buffy did have consent, Spike did give consent. He isn't a 13 yr old who qualifies for doli incapax- and how the fanbase often portrays him as such sickens the hell out of me.

Secondly, if a person is sexually assaulted, it is never that persons fault. No matter what the previous sexual or romantic history is, it never is. Buffy did suffer sexual assault. Whoever Spike is, his past with buffy, doesn't change what it was like for Buffy.

I find your comment comparing Wilson to Spike and Cordelia to Buffy quite gross, honestly. Simply because of a person's sexual history with the person who raped them, does not, for a second, mean that they shouldn't get more sympathy.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Buffy raped Spike, and its not solely one way.

There is a difference between how Spike said no, and how Buffy said no. Same way there was a difference between how Buffy said no before and how she said no in Seeing Red.

Simple question: Do you think a soulless vampire has the emotional maturity to be considered a consenting human when entering into a sexual relationship with an ensouled adult woman? Or am I the only one unconvinced about who really raped who first in the Buffy+Spike relationship?

Can you state your source from the show that says Vampires are emotionally mature?

What does having a soul have to do with emotional maturity? Spike was capable of loving Buffy to the best of his ability, he also realized he had done something horrific right after she kicked him off. If he can realize it he is clearly capable of feeling it.

Being soullessness makes Spike unable to feel the same kind of emotions that adult humans feel, being completely devoid(not simply unfeeling towards) the love and compassion that are part of that empathy represented by the "soul". Henceforth: Buffy got into a relationship with something that was not an adult human.

I think the show makes it clear he can feel them, he just doesn't understand them.

Also Remember, as Giles explained in season 1. A (unensouled) vampire is like an animal. Therefore buffy had sex with an animal/preformed beastiality.

This is dumb. Seriously dumb.
It's a metaphor, he isn't really an animal.
But to entertain your idea, Spike is an animal becasue he's a demon, Buffy is also part demon - so there shouldn't be a problem even looking at it from such a perspective.

Also remember how Spike doesn't mind or even recognize how much Buffy has abused him until he gets his soul back. This is evidence of the fact that he was not an actual adult person, as we humans define it, before this.

No it doesn't, it shows exactly what the show set up. He doesn't have a full understanding on emotion. Yes Buffy used him, but even if he had a soul I doubt he'd have stopped her at first, he probably wouldn't have let it go on as long as it would have, but he'd have started it.

Now sure you might say this is all metaphor, but it seems pretty clear cut to me. Buffy began having sex with a non-human animal. She liked this until she decided it was disgusting. That animal then tried to force itself on her. Everyone appears to focus on the latter part, over-identifying with real life human rape, but that's not what I saw. It is analogous to a woman having sex with a monkey and then that monkey attempting to force itself on her. You ask, who's to blame? Well, isn't the woman not the party with the sense in this relationship?

I shall be saving this for my Spike fans will use any argument cases in future. I think [MENTION]Joan the Vampire Slayer[/MENTION] called some of my examples unbelieveable, look here's another.

The attempted rape of Xander by Faith however is entirely a different story. As is Faith pretending to be Buffy and having sex with Riley - another example of rape, as she didn't tell Riley who she actually was. Riley was not consenting.

Similarly in Angel, Cordelia was raped by Wilson. I had sympathy for her character, but not a whole lot of sympathy for Buffy in this case.

Is anyone denying Faith tried to rape Xander, or Faith raped Riley????

I dont think I've seen anyone make an excuse for Faith in those cases, the only one people feel the need to defend is Spike.

 

[Sweet J]

Can you state your source from the show that says Vampires are emotionally mature?

What does having a soul have to do with emotional maturity? Spike was capable of loving Buffy to the best of his ability, he also realized he had done something horrific right after she kicked him off. If he can realize it he is clearly capable of feeling it.

The soul is repeatedly stated to be the persons conscience, without a conscience you are not emotionally mature. Therefore having a conscience has everything to do with emotional maturity. The show states numerous times that vampires are not bearing a conscience, and therefore by extension, unsouled vampires are not emotionally mature.
This is said about a Bazillion times - no conscience, no conscience, no conscience. Have you not picked this up from the show?

It is not my fault that the show is ambiguous about whether or not Spike already had a conscience.
If you argue that he did already have a human conscience before getting his "soul" back, then what exactly did he gain from being re-souled? If he already had a conscience and understood "he had done something horrific" as you put it, then the soul was pretty much a redundant bell and whistle, was it not?

I think you could more concretely argue he had a primitive conscience level, on par with a domesticated animal, that is, as you well know, akin to how a Canine can tell when you're not happy and, at least imitate, that they have understood they did something "bad" when they notice you preferred your shoes more before they went and restyled them by chewing them all up.

This is dumb. Seriously dumb.
It's a metaphor, he isn't really an animal.
But to entertain your idea, Spike is an animal becasue he's a demon, Buffy is also part demon - so there shouldn't be a problem even looking at it from such a perspective.

This demon vs demon comparison is a red herring. Buffy had a conscience/soul despite being part demon. Similarly, so did Angel and numerous full blooded demons in the verse.

Spike on the other hand, did not have a conscience/soul during this incident, therefore he was an animal. A domesticated animal with the brain implant, but an animal nonetheless. Spike, if you remember is routinely referred to as a "muzzled dog" with his brain implant, by himself and others. So he wasn't fully "wild", probably being comparable in emotional capacity to something in between a cat and a Bonobo, rather than a fully conscience touting adult human.

No it doesn't, it shows exactly what the show set up. He doesn't have a full understanding on emotion. Yes Buffy used him, but even if he had a soul I doubt he'd have stopped her at first, he probably wouldn't have let it go on as long as it would have, but he'd have started it.

Simple question: If you know something does not have a full adult understanding of emotion, then how can you possibly argue that knowingly getting into a relationship with that thing isn't rape? Buffy was raping him consistently, if he had a conscience during this it would be considered "using him", however without a conscience, it was bestiality.

The rest of your opinion on, and I paraphrase, "even with a soul he probably would have started raping her anyway" is an exceedingly paranoid presumptuous point of view, that is not to mention also completely unsubstantiated.

I shall be saving this for my Spike fans will use any argument cases in future. I think [MENTION]Joan the Vampire Slayer[/MENTION] called some of my examples unbelieveable, look here's another.

I don't even know what you're talking about here, I'm not an uber Spike fan, I'm just highlighting that Spike was not an emotionally mature consenting adult to begin with. Therefore Spike raping Buffy is not a valid metaphor for actual real life rape, it's some sort of shoe horned hack job.
Was it disturbing to see Spike, the animal, attack Buffy? You bet, but is it a valid metaphor for real life rape? - To me it is not, it is an example of why you shouldn't get into a bestiality "relationship" with a lesser primate animal. As they do not entirely understand the scope of human sensitivities to having forced sexual intercourse.

Is anyone denying Faith tried to rape Xander, or Faith raped Riley????

In a manner of speaking, yes, by the very lack of any sort of comparable fan outrage to both of these events. Both incidences are pretty much shrugged off and there is a general attitude that its not as big a deal🙄 The thread counts discussing both are tiny in comparison to how often Spike raping is discussed, the only logical explanation being that as these were Female raping Male cases, they are therefore not as disgusting to many fans.
I find this lack of caring curious to say the least. Especially, in my opinion, that despite the gender reversal, when Faith raped Xander it is actually the far more consistent metaphor for males raping females- that is, rape by the physically stronger partner, and being suffocatingly unable to move because they are stronger. That is real, unimaginably frightening stuff.
Buffy on the other hand was far stronger than Spike, so I never even felt worried about her being capable of rebuffing Spike's advances. Buffy is not in any serious danger, and to me, watching her be set upon is much like how you would feel watching Arnold schwarzenegger being set upon, that is, not being in a gigantic amount of danger when a physically less capable woman or man attempts to force themselves on him.

I dont think I've seen anyone make an excuse for Faith in those cases, the only one people feel the need to defend is Spike.

Faith had a conscience/soul at all times, therefore she was entirely responsible for her actions at all times, unlike Spike. There is no attempt to defend Spike by bringing this stark contrast up, I'm simply giving other examples of rape in the show that are far more concrete in what metaphor they are communicating.

To sum up, yes it was just as disturbing to see Spike, an animal, attempt to rape Buffy, as Faith raping Xander, and yes of course it was wrong, and despite it being a very graphic rape scene in the show. I however have much less sympathy for Buffy here than I did for Cordelia with Wilson and Xander with Faith etc. As buffy was knowingly having messed up bestiality intercourse/consistently raping the animal that would eventually attack, her to begin with.

Analogously, had you seen the Buffybot go haywire and come back and attempt to rape ensouled Spike, would you 1. Laugh or 2. recoil in horror? Be honest with yourself.

Are any of you really arguing that if you heard of a disturbed man having sexual relations with an animal, and eventually that animal attempts to force itself on them; that you would feel the same sympathy for this person as say: When you hear of a human relationship in which one partner attempts to force the other human partner into sexual intercourse?

I've more sympathy for the latter victim. That's why I sympathize with other characters in the verse that had attempted rapes, far more than Buffy, who was under no illusions what she was doing was disgustingly immoral("it's killing me") and who could completely hold their own.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=11786]Sweet J[/MENTION],

Psychopaths don't have what we define as a human conciounce. That doesn't mean they aren't "emotionally mature". They tend to operate normal lives for the most part. The two concepts don't have to go hand-in-hand with one another.

You can argue the case very well that Buffy was pretty stupid for having sex with Spike at all, even to begin with, but that does not mean, in any sense, that she's to blame or bears fault for what Spike did.

As to your point about Faith and Xander, it's given me an idea for a new thread topic that I'll post shortly.

 

[white avenger]

You can argue the case very well that Buffy was pretty stupid for having sex with Spike at all, even to begin with, but that does not mean, in any sense, that she's to blame or bears fault for what Spike did.

Might it not be argued that if Buffy hadn't started the relationship in the first place, Spike would almost certainly never have gotten the idea to ever try anything like this at all? From the very first kiss in "Once More With Feeling" until the final time in "As You Were," we never saw Spike initiate even a single kiss except for the one time in the bronze, when she started out saying "No," but not only didn't stop him, but actually seemed to enjoy the experience.

And, no, I'm not trying to justify or defend Spike's actions, just trying to determine why it happened in the first place. I'm in total agreement that what Spike did was wrong, but he wasn't actually doing anything that they hadn't done multiple timesin the past, which every other time had resulted in exactly the action that he was trying to initiate once more in that bathroom.

We don't know whether or not Spike had ever had any experience with sex with any other human female since being turned, except possibly for rape. From his point of view, Spike could have been doing what was expected and what Buffy had always wanted before. The first time that they had ever actually had sex began with a fight, a much more violent one than what happened in the bathroom, at which time Buffy said at least once, "You can't hurt me." With that in mind, might it not be, at least partially, that what finally stopped Spike wasn't Buffy's actual resistance, but the realization that, for the first time, he actually WAS hurting her?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

The soul is repeatedly stated to be the persons conscience, without a conscience you are not emotionally mature. Therefore having a conscience has everything to do with emotional maturity. The show states numerous times that vampires are not bearing a conscience, and therefore by extension, unsouled vampires are not emotionally mature.
This is said about a Bazillion times - no conscience, no conscience, no conscience. Have you not picked this up from the show?

Yeah I have but I dont relate a conscience to being emotionally mature, thats your version of what a concoius is. A councience isn't the ability to tell right from wrong, It's not caring whats right and wrong, Spike and the other vampires can tell right from wrong they just dont care.
If Angelus wasn't able to tell right from wrong he wouldn't have been known to be as creative as he was with murder, he knew how to hurt becasue he knew what would make something wrong worse.

It is not my fault that the show is ambiguous about whether or not Spike already had a conscience.
If you argue that he did already have a human conscience before getting his "soul" back, then what exactly did he gain from being re-souled? If he already had a conscience and understood "he had done something horrific" as you put it, then the soul was pretty much a redundant bell and whistle, was it not?

Spike is special, dont forget that. Whedon has said that he was capable of love so he was able to process emotions.
There is a huge difference between souled and unsouled Spike, unsouled Spike did everything to get in Buffy pants, souled Spike died the world even after realising the girl he loved didn't love him back. Unsouled Spike could tell right from wrong, he tells Buffy he doesn't drink blood from an injured person becasue he knows she wouldn't like it, clearly he can tell whats right and wrong. His motives for doing it are just off, after he gets the soul he is capable of doing good not just to get in her pants, but becasue he actually wants to do good.


I think you could more concretely argue he had a primitive conscience level, on par with a domesticated animal, that is, as you well know, akin to how a Canine can tell when you're not happy and, at least imitate, that they have understood they did something "bad" when they notice you preferred your shoes more before they went and restyled them by chewing them all up.

This demon vs demon comparison is a red herring. Buffy had a conscience/soul despite being part demon. Similarly, so did Angel and numerous full blooded demons in the verse.

Spike on the other hand, did not have a conscience/soul during this incident, therefore he was an animal. A domesticated animal with the brain implant, but an animal nonetheless. Spike, if you remember is routinely referred to as a "muzzled dog" with his brain implant, by himself and others. So he wasn't fully "wild", probably being comparable in emotional capacity to something in between a cat and a Bonobo, rather than a fully conscience touting adult human.

I've already argued enough stupid points over the last few days, I'm not going near this one. There's a difference between an animal and a demon, their not the same thing.

Simple question: If you know something does not have a full adult understanding of emotion, then how can you possibly argue that knowingly getting into a relationship with that thing isn't rape? Buffy was raping him consistently, if he had a conscience during this it would be considered "using him", however without a conscience, it was bestiality.

Irrelevent, not an animal

The rest of your opinion on, and I paraphrase, "even with a soul he probably would have started raping her anyway" is an exceedingly paranoid presumptuous point of view, that is not to mention also completely unsubstantiated.

Wrong. You didn't understand what I said. I believe he would have started, she would have said no, and he would have stopped. I was saying from their established relationship I could see why Spike didn't listen to the no's, they were basically part of their foreplay. However it wouldn't have gotten to the point it did in seeing red as I'm sure he would have realized she actually meant no, it wasn't a flirty no. Go read the dialog for Seeing Red, Spike completely understands she's saying no, he just doesn't care cuz he has no soul, not that he doesn't understand it, he doesn't care.

In a manner of speaking, yes, by the very lack of any sort of comparable fan outrage to both of these events. Both incidences are pretty much shrugged off and there is a general attitude that its not as big a deal🙄
The thread counts discussing both are tiny in comparison to how often Spike raping is discussed, the only logical explanation being that as these were Female raping Male cases, they are therefore not as disgusting to many fans.

Why would we discuss something we all agree on? People don't discuss Faiths attempted rape becasue there is no need, everyone knows she was wrong. The difference and reason people discuss Spike is becasue he fans want to excuse the rape.

Are any of you really arguing that if you heard of a disturbed man having sexual relations with an animal, and eventually that animal attempts to force itself on them; that you would feel the same sympathy for this person as say: When you hear of a human relationship in which one partner attempts to force the other human partner into sexual intercourse?

Your understanding of a Vampire being completely animal is so ridiculous, Compare a vampire to a werewolf. If Oz got out while in werewolf form and killed someone, he wouldn't be held accountable becasue he is an animal. Vampires have understanding, your argument is completely invalid.

With that in mind, might it not be, at least partially, that what finally stopped Spike wasn't Buffy's actual resistance, but the realization that, for the first time, he actually WAS hurting her?

No becasue he didn't stop, she kicked him off. Please stop referencing your imagined version of the show as fact.

 

[Kean]

Might it not be argued that if Buffy hadn't started the relationship in the first place, Spike would almost certainly never have gotten the idea to ever try anything like this at all?

No, it can't.

This is Spike's fault, WA. Not Buffy's. He tried to rape her. He made that choice to force himself on her. Buffy didn't give him the idea to rape her. She wasn't asking for it.

At this stage I am literally begging you to stop suggesting that she was. It is so profoundly offensive I can't even articulate it.

From the very first kiss in "Once More With Feeling" until the final time in "As You Were," we never saw Spike initiate even a single kiss except for the one time in the bronze, when she started out saying "No," but not only didn't stop him, but actually seemed to enjoy the experience.

Spike started stalking Buffy in S5. He collected her belongings, her underwear and created a shrine to her. He kidnapped her and tied her up. He repeatedly made advances on her after she had expressed her discomfort and distaste at such actions and he continued pursuing and insisting on telling her that he loved her when he knew it made her uncomfortable. Then in S6, he acted as a friend to her until he realised he could hit her and then continued to terrorise her emotionally, isolating her from her friends and confirming every fear she had about herself that she was wrong and dirty and belonged in the filth of his crypt with him.

That is all a precursor to rape. This is what rapists are made of. Spike was forcing himself on Buffy a whole year before he tried to physically rape her.

And, no, I'm not trying to justify or defend Spike's actions, just trying to determine why it happened in the first place. I'm in total agreement that what Spike did was wrong, but he wasn't actually doing anything that they hadn't done multiple timesin the past, which every other time had resulted in exactly the action that he was trying to initiate once more in that bathroom.

You may not intend to justify or defend Spike but that is what it is coming off like.

And no, they hadn't done anything like that before because when they had sex before consent was given by both parties. They might have been rough with each other, or they might have made a game of the seduction, but they were always consenting to those acts. That didn't happen in SR. Nothing about that scene is similar to any other sexual act they shared, not how he approached and certainly not how she reacted. What went on between them previously is besides the point. If someone says no, that means no. If the other person continues to try to engage in a sexual act they are committing a sexual assault. Consent can be taken away at any stage, including during sex. Nothing that happened between the two people beforehand offers justification or explanation to a rapists actions.

We don't know whether or not Spike had ever had any experience with sex with any other human female since being turned, except possibly for rape. From his point of view, Spike could have been doing what was expected and what Buffy had always wanted before. The first time that they had ever actually had sex began with a fight, a much more violent one than what happened in the bathroom, at which time Buffy said at least once, "You can't hurt me." With that in mind, might it not be, at least partially, that what finally stopped Spike wasn't Buffy's actual istance, but the realization that, for the first time, he actually WAS hurting her?

No.

Spike stopped because Buffy stopped him. If she hadn't kicked him across the room he would have continued to hold her down on the ground and rip her gown open, telling her, "I'll make you feel it."