Well all vampires have humanity in them. However, I still wouldn't judge any vampires by human standards. Despite what the judge says even Angelus has some humanity because we see that his human life haunts him (especially his father) and informs what he becomes as a vampire. However when a human is turned into a vampire, they will invariably take on the predetory characteristic that we often see in species. I don't think it's fair to say Spike was anymore at fault than any other vampire, no matter how sweet and gentle the preceeding human is, the vampire becomes a killer without remorse. He was no different.
Hmm, that’s a really interesting viewpoint. So to you, Spike isn’t different from other vampires because other vampires have humanity to a certain extent? Very interesting. However, the writers themselves have said that Spike is different from other vampires, and that he maintained his humanity despite losing his soul. Even Fury, who hated the idea of Spike’s redemption plotline, had this to say: “I began to see that Spike was an anomaly in the vampire world. A small part of William's humanity was left within him after the vampire Spike took over.”
But did he really, before he got a soul? Did he ever acknowledge anything else he'd done wrong (by human standards) aside from the AR? I've seen little evidence of this.
Not until the AR. That’s why I say that it was a wake-up call. He had always viewed himself as “okay” despite the fact that he had been a murderer. I’m not saying that he immediately felt bad about everything after the AR, but it woke him up to the fact that no, he wasn’t “okay.” And after that he had a soul, so we’ll never know if soulless Spike could have felt guilty for what he’d done.
I do think the most surprising thing is the the people who Spike was caring about but that in itself isn't something new. He's often done what he thought the people he loved wanted. He attempted to destroy the world for Dru even though apocalypses aren't really his thing. Now while he cared about Summers women, he also said he'd kill Buffy's friends if he had the chance. Now a part of me doesn't believe him but the other part of me wouldn't have removed the chip until after he got a soul. The problem with Spike is that his motives are never totally clear. He felt like an outsider but then soulless Harmony has felt like that nd who's to say other vampires can't feel like that? Honestly, I'm not sure what went on with Spike and how unique he is inherently. I still however believe there is no metaphysical different between him and other vampires.
You’re right, his motives are never completely clear. I think his character is extremely open to interpretation as a result. You can call him a soulless, evil mass-murderer and be more or less right, but you can also call him a vampire who completely overcame his baser instincts to be a good man and you’d still be right. Because of that, the people who like Spike can find ways to support him, and the people who don’t can find an equal number of ways to condemn him.
I don’t think he would have hurt Buffy’s friends, or at least I don’t think he would have killed them. He nearly died to protect her from losing Dawn, and he wouldn’t force that pain on her again. Consider the fact that he went after a random stranger rather than one of the Scoobies. If Spike was as completely bad as some people claim, to me it would have made more sense to go straight for Xander or Willow or maybe even Tara. But I think he did like, or was at least fond of, Willow and Tara. And he certainly loved Buffy and Dawn.
Spike didn't have to do anything. He didn't for a hundred years. I know I agreed that he wasn't one for self reflection but this takes the biscuit. He changed because he thought it was what Buffy wanted, he actually says this. There's nothing wrong with that and in the end we get another soulled vamp, happy days. However, I'm not going to put words in his mouth and say he thought about morality on a higher lever when I have no evidence he did.
You know, I think we’re on the same side of the coin, but even that side has two separate sides. =P
I never had any intention of taking the biscuit, though I might if you had one. I do love biscuits. Anyway, yes, it was because it was what Buffy wanted. That was at least half the reason. Possibly even 80%. But it was also “to be the kind of man who would never…” I think it’s pretty obvious that his words mean he didn’t want to be the kind of man who could hurt her. Also, when I see this:
I can see the realization taking place. What he’s done, what kind of person he is, the fact that Buffy will never love him and probably shouldn’t. Again, that’s open to interpretation because he never strictly says, “I changed because I wanted to be a better man,” but that’s what I think he did. Just like Buffy says, he saw the evil in himself and fought back.
Even when he’s agonizing over it, there’s proof in that conversation, too. First he says, “I can feel it, squirming in my head.” He says it’s the chip, but that’s not what he’s feeling. He’s feeling guilt, fresh and raw. He turns the whole conversation about the chip, but that’s just to fake us out. What he's really referring to is how much he's changed and how human he's become as a result. That's why he targets the chip, because it started his humanization (is that a word?). In the end Clem tells him things change, and Spike replies, “If you make them.” I interpret that as him making himself change.
In real life, I'm something of an agnostic atheist and materialist, so the whole soul thing means little to me but in the Verse it appears to make a difference. In short, if the soul is a moral decision making facility then if someone lacks that I'm not going to judge them by those standards.
First, I’m not trying to do Spike a disservice. I’m not saying he should be held up to Buffy’s standards. But he should be held up to higher standards than other vampires because he developed more and because he could make right choices. When someone has the ability to be good but doesn’t, they have to be judged for that. That said, I don’t think you can hold him up to entirely human standards either.
As for the soul, BtVS
said you had to have a soul to be good, but it didn’t
show it. It showed the opposite, really, with Spike and Anya and Dawn and Warren and neutral demons and other characters who didn’t fall directly into one of the other. Warren had a soul, the supposed piece that gives a person moral direction, and he was one of the worst Big Bads on Buffy. However, the show never addressed it in their mythology, which just frustrated me. They broke their own canon but stubbornly held to it anyway.
