Spike's reaction to Buffy's resurrection

Well I always got the impression that all was not well with poor old Joyce and that she had definitely "come back wrong". I mean Doc said it was a complicated spell and Dawn was hardly the most qualified in that department was she?
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
Getting the impression is fine. That's all one could do in that circumstance. I never got that impression though.
When it comes to repercussions I've always seen it as being that Spikes words was heralding Tara's death later in the season as that was the price for bringing Buffy back.

I know that magic is very much about balance, that said, I really dislike your idea. It absolves Warren of responsibility. Tara isn't dead because Buffy was brought back - Tara's dead because Warren shot her.

As to Spike. I think that what he does in "Forever" is absolutely wretched, worse than "Seeing Red" in my opinion but it's not what got Buffy killed. Sure, it's a piece of a puzzle but so is Buffy asking Ben for help for example.
 
Well imo If Buffy had stayed dead many things would be a lot different and Tara would have still been alive.

Would she? Would Willow, Xander, Dawn be alive? Living at the Hellmouth, without a Slayer? Couldn't the Hellions have killed one of them? Couldn't Will and Tara leave Sunnydale, take a plane to NY and die because of a terrorist attack?

See, that's the thing: consequence of magic (Law); bad things will happen to people who sin (punishment) or karma (intent and actions influence the future of that individual). I don't think Tara's death wasn't a consequence of magic; was it punishment then? I don't think so. Was it karma? I don't think so. Not in the Buffyverse. It just happened.
 
Of course all things were possible, but the events wouldn't have unfolded in the same way and the motivations would have changed and as I said I think Tara wouldn't have died.

As for what Spike did in Forever, he was a souless vamp, what was the scooby gangs excuse?
 
Well I always got the impression that all was not well with poor old Joyce and that she had definitely "come back wrong". I mean Doc said it was a complicated spell and Dawn was hardly the most qualified in that department was she?

It was a complicated spell... to a certain point. Dawn was able perform it, for God sake! So, as Doc said, the spell would probably bring Joyce wrong, because it was a crappy resurrection spell... add that to that dragging shadow, you get an impression of a zombie...
 
Spike simply learned his lesson.
The last time he tried to mess with that sort of thing he inadvertently got Buffy killed (Doc found out about Dawn/The Key when they paid him a visit).
I always assumed that when Spike talks about 'that's the thing about magic, there's always consequences'- that's what he's talking about. By trying to help bring Joyce back he accidentally cost Buffy her life.

I think it goes even earlier - he seemed perfectly at ease doing the spell to heal Dru. And he ended up burned and paralyzed. Even when it came to the Doc-in large part he was overseeing her because he knew how badly things could go. He warned her several time about how dangerous such a spell could be, and about what she might bring back. Had she gone into the spell without his help and advice she quite probably would have died. Or she wouldn't have the knowledge why she had to rip the picture.
 
Actually Dawn cancelled the spell in the end, which was why they avoided the consequences of scary zombie-joyce appearing or something equally gruesome.

I thought we were talking about the possibility of Buffy coming back as a zombie - or at least Spike was. I'd say, use your imagination - blind, deaf, covered with burns, suffering from a severe stroke - lot's of ways for Buffy tom come back wrong. And given that Spike took care of loony Dru for a century - he would have taken care of Buffy regardless of the damage.

I'm sure Spike blamed himself (needlessly) for what happened in the end, as did Dawn. But the fact that both Spike and Dawn were willing to give their lives to protect Buffy completely absolves them of responsibility in my view.

Here we go - I agree with you here. I saw Doctake the hair, say it had good DNA by glancing at it under a microscope, and then do everything to appear kind and helpful. I don't know if he knew she was the key, but he knew something there. He had a piece of the puzzle at least. Spike may well have realized this retroactively - another reason to punish himself.

When Jonathan performed that spell that made him a superstar, it created a demon; same thing with Willow's magic: the spell to resurrect Buffy worked perfectly – but it also created a demon.

Resurrecting Buffy killed Tara. That's what Joss said that when Willow cut the fawn's throat she fired the bullet that killed Tara. Blood magic, necromancy, is the darkest form magic.

I believe that the whole purpose of the episode was address the use of magic to resurrect a loved one and how things could go awfully wrong – and make it clear that Buffy was against it.

I can't believe I never made that connection - that it shows how Buffy felt!

I know that magic is very much about balance, that said, I really dislike your idea. It absolves Warren of responsibility. Tara isn't dead because Buffy was brought back - Tara's dead because Warren shot her.

Warren is responsible - he has full choice. Tara could have died a different way. But Warren made his choice. Then Willow killed Warren and tried to destroy the world.

As to Spike. I think that what he does in "Forever" is absolutely wretched, worse than "Seeing Red" in my opinion but it's not what got Buffy killed. Sure, it's a piece of a puzzle but so is Buffy asking Ben for help for example.

I don't think leaving a grief stricken child with an infamous book of dark magic spells and the ability to do that spell all alone. Just like when he followed her to rob the Magic Box 'If id sister wants to take a stroll she will find a way'
 
Consequences of magic aren't a slap on the wrist given by God or some Good Power, as saying “bad, bad boy/girl, you did something very nasty and something bad will happen to you now!”

The consequence is something directly attached to the performing of the spell; it's a natural rule, not a punishment.

I disagree. Magic is nature- it is a natural part of the world, therefore if you mess with it there are consequences for those who set things in motion. Ultimate example- the empowering spell in S7 upsets the magical balance of the world and pushes it towards Twilight, towards evolving. Magic= underpinning natural forces.

Dawn did a resurrection spell, but Joyce came back wrong – that was the consequence. Dawn didn't do a spell to rise a zombie – and certainly there are spells to rise zombies.
Hence, the Spike's mixed feelings - Buffy is back; magic has consequences: is she the same Buffy (apparently she is), or has she come back wrong?

I doubt Spike was told about the outcome of the spell and anyway why would the subject of the spell be punished when they've done nothing wrong. It's always the person who messes with natural forces, who involves that darker magic, that suffers somehow. It's not punishment, its a price.

That just happened, it wasn't a consequence or a punishment. "Consequence of magic" seems to be always magical and not natural.

Again, on the show magic is depicted as a natural part of the universe. When dark magic is used, and nature is violated- then there are consequences to the person who violated it- Willow used blood magic, crossed that line, and Dark Willow was born inside her.

'the spell was very powerful, I'm very powerful, so maybe it isn't a good idea to piss me off' or words to that effect.

That's what Spike is refering to- he's talking to Xader and Anya who helped with the darn spell- he's telling them of the consequences to the caster when they mess with magic.
That's been shown as far back as S2 Becoming -when Giles warns Willow about casting her very first spell, about it opening a door she would be unable (or unwilling) to close.

To me that's why the theory makes sense- because we've seen examples beofore and after from the show itself.

I think it goes even earlier - he seemed perfectly at ease doing the spell to heal Dru. And he ended up burned and paralyzed. Even when it came to the Doc-in large part he was overseeing her because he knew how badly things could go. He warned her several time about how dangerous such a spell could be, and about what she might bring back. Had she gone into the spell without his help and advice she quite probably would have died.

This is a good point, Spike has messed with a spell before and he- the caster of the spell- suffered the consequences, not Drusilla (Drusilla was great! She was back to normal again).
So Spike was warning the casters- 'you'll be sorry about what you set in motion', he wasn't warning them about Buffy, but (unknowingly) about Willow and the part of the spelll she kept from all of them.
Giles emphasise this by saying almost the exact same thing to Willow the next episode, lecturing her about the lines she's crossed. Emphasis- if you do something dark expect dark shit to happen.

Here we go - I agree with you here. I saw Doctake the hair, say it had good DNA by glancing at it under a microscope, and then do everything to appear kind and helpful. I don't know if he knew she was the key, but he knew something there. He had a piece of the puzzle at least. Spike may well have realized this retroactively - another reason to punish himself.

Again I agree, maybe it just added to all those little puzzle pieces. Doc knew about Glory, he knew about the Key, he had a book detailing the Key blood ritual (and perhaps more pbesides) at an appointed time and place, then he sees this girls very unique strand of hair and the cogs begin to turn. Then he twigs.
Then he shows up to complete the ritual.

Resurrecting Buffy killed Tara.

That's on e way to look at it I suppose, except that tends to absolve Warren of responsibility. The way I see it resurrecting Buffy set Dark Willow in motion. If it hadn't been Tara's death, it may well've been something else.
 
Resurrecting Buffy killed Tara.

So, Willow KILLED Tara... Warren was just an instrument. Also, all this time, Buffy has been blamed (comics) for causing her death - by herself and by Willow, who kept Kennedy away from the Slayer since her other girlfriend died because she was around Buffy. That's very disturbing.
 
Again I agree, maybe it just added to all those little puzzle pieces. Doc knew about Glory, he knew about the Key,

That's just a supposition. Everyone had been looking for the Key, everyone had been trying to hide the Key; so, Doc knew what/who the Key was, he worshiped Glory, but he didn't look for her to tell this little piece of information? I don't think so.

No, Doc didn't know that Dawn was the Key. He realized that Dawn (and her strong DNA) was the Slayer's sister and that the Key was in human form when Xander and Spike went to talk to him; almost immediately, he stood up and went to stand in front of the very box that contained the scroll with the ritual (and how one could stop it), all protective of it - something very stupid to do, but when you are caught by surprise you don't think right.

As Glory's worshiper, Doc then made sure that the ritual was completed. You can say that Spike and Xander going to talk to him caused Doc to be at the tower; but I don't think that that was the intention of the writers, to say that Spike and Xander killed Buffy; they just used Doc to introduce the box that cointained the scroll explaining what would happen to Dawn and how to stop the ritual.
 
That's just a supposition.

Well yeah, of course it is. It's an opinion. It's why I use the word 'maybe' and stuff. But there's evidence to back it up.

Everyone had been looking for the Key, everyone had been trying to hide the Key; so, Doc knew what/who the Key was, he worshiped Glory, but he didn't look for her to tell this little piece of information?

Presuming that Doc even knew where to go and look for Glory (Buffy and co couldn't find her for a good six months), he was some sort of underworld dealer. Besides he finds out in 'Forever', Glory finds out a couple of weeks later- that's not an unrealistic timeline.
Hell maybe he had such faith in his goddess she. he just knew that she would find her Key in time, and if not rhen he would tell her. As it turned outt here was no need, because she found out anyway.

No, Doc didn't know that Dawn was the Key. He realized that Dawn (and her strong DNA) was the Slayer's sister and that the Key was in human form when Xander and Spike went to talk to him;

That's just supposition. Doc could've known any number of things by looking at Dawn's hair. We do know that he was suddenly very interested in her- whether it was as the slayers sister (why would he care) or as the key (that's a big deal).

Added to that the whole 'there are always consequences'- Spike (needlessly) blaming himself and it seems to me that both Dawn and Spike think they brought Doc upon themselves when they dabbled in dark magics
 
So, Willow KILLED Tara... Warren was just an instrument. Also, all this time, Buffy has been blamed (comics) for causing her death - by herself and by Willow, who kept Kennedy away from the Slayer since her other girlfriend died because she was around Buffy. That's very disturbing.

Well, I don't read the comics, so I can't comment there. But yes, Willow decided to do a spell that she knew was the very darkest magic. She killed a fawn and used it's blood - and according to Joss that choice marked Tara for death. A life for a life - it's why necromancy is considered the darkest of magics. Tara could have fallen off a cliff, hit by a bus - as it was she was struck by a random bullet.

Warren also made choices - and I happen to be one of the few people who can't quite feel any condemnation in my heart. Even if I know it's wrong - there's a part of me that yells "Yay Willow!"
 
It really confuses me.

From what i see he is shocked, shaken, happy as in crying (tears of joy?)
angry ('I worked with you all summer and you didn't tell me!')
protective ('...there was a chance she'd come back wrong. So wrong that you'd
have to-- that she'd have to get rid of what came back. And she knew I
wouldn't let her.')
disturbed by the misuse of magic ('There's always consequences')
Then we see him punching the wall, distraught.

My question is, if the Scoobies did ask his advice, what he would have told them?

He was obviously grieving, missing Buffy and feeling guilty for not saving her
but (as far as i know) he never tried to bring her back, though in the past if he wants something he always tries to find a solution and knows whom to ask. He does cure Dru's ailment with black magic and even helps Dawn to bring back the shadow of Joyce and there was that love spell attempt in season 3 🙂 He usually pretty good with finding ancient texts, artifacts and magic users to assist him in what he wants. Or nerds to create a sexboot or check on his chip, for that matter. Or jumping on the possibility to remove his chip when he hears that a doc of the Initiative is in town. But he never does do anything to try to bring her back. Instead, he keeps his promise to protect Dawn.

So why the sudden scrupulousness about the possible consequences of magic? It seems he's the only one seriously bugged by that.
So what would he do if asked by Willow to help in the spell?


I think he never tried to bring her back or do anything about it because as he says to Xander, there was a chance that she might come back wrong and he didn't want to do that to her. Maybe some part of him realized that it was her time to be finished and trying to bring her back could potentially be worse than just leaving her dead and would defile the memory of her. Instead he tries to honor her by keeping his promise of protecting Dawn. I think it was out of respect that he didn't try to bring her back or anything. He truly cares for her.
 
I believe that the whole purpose of the episode was address the use of magic to resurrect a loved one and how things could go awfully wrong – and make it clear that Buffy was against it.



I don't think so. That just happened, it wasn't a consequence or a punishment. "Consequence of magic" seems to be always magical and not natural.



We see Joyce's shadow twice; she wasn't injured when she died, and her "corpse" was walking like a zombie...

About the body: Doc said that to reverse the spell Dawn had to destroy the photo; "revert" could be "cancel", couldn't it? If it was canceled, it didn't happen. Or the body went back to her grave magically - it is there, if one is curious to look... I don't think it evaporated.

I think the consequences of magic would be more connected to the original spell, rather than later on in a rather unconnected way. I've always seen the consequence as being Buffy's trauma (which I've always thought they didn't address enough) and Willow's continued growing addiction to magic. I'd say Tara's death was more of a repercussion rather than a direct consequence of the spell they used.
 
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