Spuffy #4 - General Discussion

[prophecygrrl]

1. Has the fandom changed your opinion/perception of Spike/Buffy, for better or for worse?

Hm...this one made me think. Fandom reaction in general hasn't really changed my opinion. Haters gonna hate, I guess. Everything I feel about them is what I know to be true, and that's not going to change any time soon. But I can say that I've read some wonderful fanfiction and Spuffy meta that's really added to the depth of their relationship and made me appreciate it so much more. That and the awesome Spuffy shippers I've met really make me proud to ship them. Overall, definitely for the better. 🙂
2. How would Joyce feel about Spike/Buffy?

I'm waffling on this one. On one hand, she was the one who really talked Angel into leaving. He made the decision on his own, of course (and IMO he was right to leave), but Joyce recognized that if Buffy stayed with Angel, she would never have a real future. Him leaving at least allowed her a chance to have a normalish life, even if that ultimately didn't happen.

Would she be okay with Spike though? Another vampire lover, or the real thing? IMO she's always liked Spike, and vice versa. Their interactions are actually some of my favorite scenes, lol! I think she may be opposed to them in the beginning (like when Buffy first tells her she thinks he has a crush on her in I forget which episode), and probably in Season Six just because it IS an unhealthy relationship. I personally think it's a vital step in their journey together, but I can see how as a mother Joyce might disapprove. But after seeing his fierce loyalty to Buffy, even when no one else believed in her, (*cough* Scoobies in Empty Places, I'm looking at you!) I really think she would like them together.

3. Hottest Spike/Buffy scene?
Ending of Smashed. Holy, holy crap. I remember my jaw on the floor when I first saw it, lol! But a close runner up is that kiss at the end of OMWF. It looks SO passionate, plus the swelling music and then James does this jaw flexing thing that makes his cheekbones look so sexy okay I'll stop now. 😛

4. Spike and Buffy: better in their comedic or dramatic moments?
Ah, I can't decide! I LOVE their banter because it really just defines their relationship to me- those two bouncing vibes and thoughts off each other but fitting perfectly together at the same time. Then again, their dramatic moments just make my heart wrench in this really wonderful (and slightly masochistic, I'm a sucker for tragic love) way. Can I pick both?? xD

5. In your opinion, what is currently the biggest obstacle that Buffy and Spike would have to work around before they could get involved again?

The biggest obstacle for me is really the lack of communication. I can see so plainly their love for each other in season 7, but it's never clearly articulated until those last moments. While I do believe they don't need words in the same way other couples do, words are still very important to their relationship. It's Spike's words in Touched, after all, that give Buffy strength and show her that he isn't looking for anything from her. It's that beautiful, beautiful monologue of his that lets her trust him enough to sleep in his arms that night. And then again in End of Days, when they talk about their night together. Throughout that entire season, they act as warriors. In the midst of an epic battle, that's all they let themselves be. It's what everyone needs them to be. But I think that conversation is one of the few moments in Season 7 where they were truly vulnerable, and truly together. "Were you there with me?", he asks, to which Buffy replies, "I was." AHHH I unabashedly fangirl over that conversation every time. Believe me, I've rewound it so many times I can't even count.

The comics haven't done much to change my opinion on this either. In #36 we see that they've both been too busy to even call. #37 has a lot more of that awesome banter only Spuffy can deliver, but they still don't touch on the real issues in their relationship. Buffy kind of does in her fantasy, (the "dark place" thing!) but Spike has no clue what she's thinking. He even goes so far as to assume Angel's still on her mind.

 

[Miss Kitty]

1. Has the fandom changed your opinion/perception of Spike/Buffy, for better or for worse?
Definitely for better ♥ I was totally in love with this relationship, and now, it's stronger than at the beggining 😛 The fandom hadn't really change my opinion, but reading opinions from other fans permits to see some elements of their relationship on another point of view, and sometimes, it permits to discover new things about them 🙂

2. How would Joyce feel about Spike/Buffy?
It depends of the context. Season 6 was complicated for both Buffy & Spike, but except Tara, noboby knows about their relationship during this period. But in season 7 (and later), I think Joyce wouldn't have disapproved ; in fact, aside from the fact that he's a vampire, I think she would appreciate the idea, because she really likes him (and vice-versa), and they have good moments together.

3. Hottest Spike/Buffy scene?
I should say Smashed, or Dead things, but I will go with their last time in As you were. I find it really, really hot, not only because of the scene itself, but because of the atmosphere, it was really special.

4. Spike and Buffy: better in their comedic or dramatic moments?
I love both ♥ But I will say dramatic... they're so amazing together.

5. In your opinion, what is currently the biggest obstacle that Buffy and Spike would have to work around before they could get involved again?
Hmm, the fact that they're stupid ? Okay, let me developp 😛 First of all, concerning the comics, even if I follow them, I don't consider them as Canon. But, in the context of the comics, in my opinion, Buffy cares a lot for Spike, and she still loves him ; Spike, it's the same thing. They hadn't been too busy for calling each other, I mean, come on ! Who can seriously believe this ? Not me. It's just the fact that they are scared *and* it's a story of pride (for Buffy especially). Put us in the context : we know in season 5 of ATS, according to Andrew, that Buffy doesn't know Spike is alive. And I'm persuaded that Spike was scared at the idea of meeting Buffy again after all what happens between them. Because he has a lot of incertitudes, and I understand it. But there ? He's stupid.

Now, on Buffy's side, she had probably learn at some point that Spike was alive for a long time AND that he didn't estimate useful to call her. Buffy is the Queen of the Incertitudes in terms of feelings and she has a big pride. Her reaction to Spike seems perfectly logical. I can perfectly imagine her being angry at him for this, and hurt by this. Why didn't he call her ? She doesn't want to show that it affected her, she's like : "Uh, you don't care about me, okay, I don't care about you". There ? She's stupid.

You know, they are always on the same level, and it's still true : he's stupid, she's stupid, they're stupid 😛 lol. But it's cute and sooooo Spuffy 😛 I think they just need time for talking, in a better context than currently. The fact is : Spike has still incertitudes (he thinks Buffy was thinking to Angel, but she wasn't), but we know that Buffy cares a lot for him, and she's a lot closer to him as she said it to him on her fantasies. They know each other. It's not an idealization, just a reality.

So, I think that their problem currently is a lot of incertitudes about each other feelings, and I think that they're scared... But when I see how they wrote their relationship in #37, with this misunderstanding, it shows that they still have a lot of stuff to do together. We probably get a future about this, and it's a really, really good thing.

But out of the comics, I still think that fears and incertitudes could be a problem for them. They're in love, but they are clumsy on the feelings level with each other.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I know that jaw flexing thing... oh my god. so... I'm a lesbian and I'd tap that.

^This made me laugh so hard!! Argh James Marsters. Every time he came on screen as Spike, it was like, cue sexual frustration. Commence fangirling. 😀

 

[zobothehobo]

^This made me laugh so hard!! Argh James Marsters. Every time he came on screen as Spike, it was like, cue sexual frustration. Commence fangirling. 😀

hahaha yeah... part of me feels wrong though because when I see him in interviews and panels and such I think of him as a role model... a paternal figure I don't have... but then I watch Buffy and see Spike and the Spuffy action and bad thoughts come to my head.

 

[Spikefan31]

hahaha yeah... part of me feels wrong though because when I see him in interviews and panels and such I think of him as a role model... a paternal figure I don't have... but then I watch Buffy and see Spike and the Spuffy action and bad thoughts come to my head.

Don't worry, that happens to me too. I don't care if he's more than twice my age, I would tap that. Hahahaha 😀

...But at the same time I wouldn't...

And no offence to anyone who likes the sex scene in Dead Things (that's when they do it on the balcony at the Bronze, right?), but I really don't like that scene. I mean, there and then, it's just so...wrong.

---------- Post added at 02:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------

And the biggest obstacle? One word:

ANGEL!!! *Quick, everyone throw tomatoes!*

Or maybe two words:

BANGEL 'SHIPPERS!!!

😀😀😀

 

[zobothehobo]

Don't worry, that happens to me too. I don't care if he's more than twice my age, I would tap that. Hahahaha 😀

...But at the same time I wouldn't...

And no offence to anyone who likes the sex scene in Dead Things (that's when they do it on the balcony at the Bronze, right?), but I really don't like that scene. I mean, there and then, it's just so...wrong.

---------- Post added at 02:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------

And the biggest obstacle? One word:

ANGEL!!! *Quick, everyone throw tomatoes!*

Or maybe two words:

BANGEL 'SHIPPERS!!!

😀😀😀

the wrongness it what makes it so unbelievably sexy.

 

[StarSlayer]

1. Has the fandom changed your opinion/perception of Spike/Buffy, for better or for worse?
It's totally made me love Spuffy even more! I love reading and discussing what everyone loves about them, and finding new things that make me love Spuffy more 🙂

2. How would Joyce feel about Spike/Buffy?
It depends on the season, but overall, I actually think Joyce would be pretty accepting of Spike. In "Crush," one of the things she asked Buffy was if Buffy led Spike on in anyway. While she supported Buffy and her choice, I thought it was interesting she thought of Spike's interests as well 🙂 Now, in s6, I don't think Joyce would have liked how Buffy kept her relationship with Spike a secret, or the violence in their relationship. Yet, in s7, I think she would have taken the time to listen to Buffy about Spike and his soul, and found out that there is love between them 🙂

3. Hottest Spike/Buffy scene?
Ooo, tough one. I always keep going back to "Smashed." It was just so epic. I also like that little scene between them in "Storyteller," the one from Andrew perspective.

4. Spike and Buffy: better in their comedic or dramatic moments?
Ooo, another tough one. Although Spuffy had some great comedic moments, I think the dramatic moments really get to the heart and essence of their relationship. "Intervention," "After Life," "Touched," "End of Days," "Chosen," to name a few 🙂

5. In your opinion, what is currently the biggest obstacle that Buffy and Spike would have to work around before they could get involved again?
I feel like they need to talk about what happened in the Hellmouth. Based on the comics, I get the feeling Spike no longer believes Buffy loves him because of what happened with Angel. It's s7 all over again. As such, he's putting his guard up, covering if you will. Afraid to say what's truly on his mind. With Buffy, she needs to get over this silly "best, weirdest, best day of her life" crap with Angel. And Spike called her out on that. She needs to admit what she's really feeling about Spike. And Spike needs to hear it, sad to say.

 

[prophecygrrl]

It's s7 all over again. As such, he's putting his guard up, covering if you will. Afraid to say what's truly on his mind. With Buffy, she needs to get over this silly "best, weirdest, best day of her life" crap with Angel. And Spike called her out on that. She needs to admit what she's really feeling about Spike. And Spike needs to hear it, sad to say.

^I felt that way at first, but I just read the BEST S8!Spike mini-meta and it's really changed my perspective on Spike and how he relates to Buffy. I definitely agree that he's pessimistic about their relationship after the whole spacefrakking mess, but I think he may also be self-confident enough now not to let it affect him as much as it would have before. He's no longer drawing funny pictures of Angel in Buffy's basement. He is putting his guard up somewhat, but I think he's just playing the role of the warrior again and concentrating on the mission. Oh, how I love thee, Spike.

Some quotes from the meta (bolded emphasis is mine, not the author's), which is here: http://2maggie2.livejournal.com/29855.html

I just adore the fact that Spike really has taken up the challenge of making a life for himself post-Buffy and is now coming to her as emphatically his own man. It's the direction I'd hoped he would take post-NFA, and I'm glad to have a chance to see that Joss thinks it is the direction he'd take post-NFA.

Talking about #37:

Spike is sprawled out on his bed in a posture that screams "comfortable in his own skin". No begging or pleading. No treating Buffy like she's on a pedastal. He's just kicked back and ready to tell her what he knows. Whatever Spike's been up to since we last saw him, it's gone well for him. He's his own man.

Spike calls on Willow and Buffy to get into the mix. It's done with economy but notice that Spike's words reveal that he's internalized the mission here. He could use Willow and Buffy front and center -- i.e. *he* wants to go in to deal with the seed and save the world. Again, with the theme of Spike being his own man. He's also enough of his own man to know that the big guns are Buffy and Willow and not him. He's all about the mission and without illusion about what sort of role he himself can play in that mission.

The panels of Spike jumping on for a ride with flying Buffy are great. First, he's shown already breaking into a run when he sees her steeling herself to launch. He's anticipated her move and is already responding to it. Second, I love that he knows Buffy well enough to know she assumes she's on her own in these battles. Third, I love that he knows her even more well enough to know that she oughtn't to go into these battles alone.

I love that he has to take a flying leap to catch her and goes hurtling into the hellmouth with wisps of smoke coming up as he streaks through the bright sunlit sky. Classic Spike throwing himself into things, trusting that it'll work out.

And I love that Spike still loves the part of Buffy that is a hero. But given all that's come before, it's a more judicious admiration. He loves her as a hero, but knows she can also be a moron who needs a wake-up call. And knowing that she can be a moron hasn't caused him to stop loving the hero. He's willing to see her as she is, without the need to either idealize her or demonize her.

I actually really like the idea of Spike as his own man. That's a huge part of what I want in my Spuffy endgame, and that's the two of them working side by side in a true and beautiful partnership. My heart goes out to lovesick!Spike, but ultimately I don't think that would've been healthy for either of them. Which is why I also loveloveloved their relationship in season 7, because he was still fiercely loyal but no longer coming on too strong or putting her on a pedestal. It's like in "Touched" (hehe, can you tell I LOVE that scene? I can probably relate everything back to "Touched" 😛):

SPIKE: I've hummed along to your pity ditty and I think I should have the mike for a bit.

BUFFY: Fine. The stage is yours. Cheer me up.

SPIKE: You're insufferable.

BUFFY: Thank you. That really helped.

SPIKE: I'm not trying to cheer you up.

BUFFY: Then what are you trying to say?

SPIKE: I don't know! I'll know when I?m done saying it. Something pissed me off and I just- unattainable! That's it.

BUFFY: Fine. I'm attainable. I'm an attain-athon. Can I please just go to sleep?

SPIKE: You listen to me. I've been alive a bit longer than you and dead a lot longer than that. I've seen things you couldn't imagine and done things I'd prefer you didn't. I don't exactly have a reputation for being a thinker. I follow my blood which doesn?t exactly rush in the direction of my brain so I make a lot of mistakes. A lot of wrong bloody calls. A hundred plus years and there's only one thing I've ever been sure of. You. Hey, look at me. I'm not asking you for anything. When I say I love you, it's not because I want you, or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman.

(I know I could've cut some of that for length, but I just love that speech too much to do that!)

He tells her the flat-out truth because she NEEDS to hear it, and I love him for doing that. That's one of the best parts of Spuffy, and that's the same vibe I'm getting from him in the comics.

 

[Miss Kitty]

I actually really like the idea of Spike as his own man. That's a huge part of what I want in my Spuffy endgame

I agree on this part ! That's a really good point for both of them.

 

[Buffanator]

Honestly, I don't look at it as an attempted rape. He didn't attempt to rape her. He attempted to have sex with her. I don't think he realized there wasn't a part of her that wanted it until she kicked him across the room... that's why he was so horrified and disgusted with himself. He was confused and frustrated and just trying to make her love him in the only way he knew how. When that didn't work, he went to get a soul so he could know how to love her and be the man she needed. It's an awful scene to watch, but not because he's raping her... but rather because he's so confused. He has no idea what's going on. And it's heartbreaking. He's hurting her, which is the last thing he wants to do and comes to the realization, as he is at that point, he'll never be the man she needs... the man she loves.

I totally agree with you! For the longest time, I thought I was the only Spuffyer who felt that Spike didn't intend to rape her. He was doing what *they* always did... fight, then have awesome sex. Buffy often started out saying "no, no, no" and then said "yes, yes, yes!" And the look on his face when he realized that he was actually hurting her... OMG, that breaks my heart completely wide open. And Buffy is crying, and she says "ask me again why I could never love you"... ~sigh~!... sad, sad, sad. 🙁

And strangely, I love that scene. I think it was one of the most well-written scenes in the entire series.

1. Has the fandom changed your opinion/perception of Spike/Buffy, for better or for worse?
It's not changed my opinion or perception of Spuffy. I have always enjoyed their relationship - from S-2 thru S-7 & all inbetween times.

2. How would Joyce feel about Spike/Buffy?
I don't think Joyce would be all in favor of Spuffy, but I think she trusts Buffy's judgment enough to accept it.

3. Hottest Spike/Buffy scene?
Oh, without question! - "Smashed". The fight, the banter, the sex. It was SO hot!

4. Spike and Buffy: better in their comedic or dramatic moments?
While I like both, I have to say comedic, simply because it was Spike's comedic moments that made me love the character so much in the first place.

5. In your opinion, what is currently the biggest obstacle that Buffy and Spike would have to work around before they could get involved again?
Angel, of course. While I don't believe that Angel is Buffy's soul mate by any means, he was her first love, and first loves have a tendency to hold that special place in your heart, regardless of who else ever comes along. And I think that Buffy's relationship with Spike was far more engaging than it was with Angel - of course - since Angel would go all evil if they had "relations". But she obviously does still have feelings for him, and I imagine, always will - and yet, there's that spark between her & Spike that she never felt with Angel (or Reilly) because she allowed herself to let go of her "good girl" image - she let herself feel/do things that she'd always held back on - & just roll with that passion that only comes when you're being *bad*- no inhibitions, no reservations, just total giving in to the moment ...ummmm, sexy! :devy:

 

[StarSlayer]

^I felt that way at first, but I just read the BEST S8!Spike mini-meta and it's really changed my perspective on Spike and how he relates to Buffy. I definitely agree that he's pessimistic about their relationship after the whole spacefrakking mess, but I think he may also be self-confident enough now not to let it affect him as much as it would have before. He's no longer drawing funny pictures of Angel in Buffy's basement. He is putting his guard up somewhat, but I think he's just playing the role of the warrior again and concentrating on the mission. Oh, how I love thee, Spike.

I actually really like the idea of Spike as his own man. That's a huge part of what I want in my Spuffy endgame, and that's the two of them working side by side in a true and beautiful partnership. My heart goes out to lovesick!Spike, but ultimately I don't think that would've been healthy for either of them.

Thanks for posting that mini-meta 😀 I really enjoyed reading it! And I agree. I totally believe Spike has become his own man since getting a soul, dying in the Hellmouth, coming back to life in AtS, and through the comics (I've just read summaries of those except for the "Last Gleaming" issues). I loved all the quotes you pointed out too 🙂 This one also stood out for me:

The bottle he doesn't want to spill is a 70-year-old madeira. That's all William, this guy who cares about a 70-year old madeira. And this is a move that I adore Joss for making. Ever since Spike reclaimed the word 'effulgent' in NFA, I've wanted to see a story about what a Spike who has finally faced up to and dealt with the humiliation that sent him running from William into becoming Spike would do. The answer is exactly the one I hoped for. One reason this new Spike is more comfortable with himself than the Spike we used to know is that he's not as ashamed of William as he once was. This Spike isn't going to hide away the madeira the way the old Spike would hide away his books.

This so reminded me of all the times Spike was putting up this "tough guy" image, even though he was a poet (fool for love) at heart 🙂 For instance, in s2, when Spike tells Buffy not all vampires want the world to end and that it's all tough guy talk, since he actually likes this world. Also, in FFL, when he starts to cry after Buffy said he was beneath her and threw the money at him. After being sired into a vampire, joining up with Angelus, Darla, and Dru, and killing 2 slayers, there's still a part of William in him, this sensitive side.

Which is why I also loveloveloved their relationship in season 7, because he was still fiercely loyal but no longer coming on too strong or putting her on a pedestal. It's like in "Touched" (hehe, can you tell I LOVE that scene? I can probably relate everything back to "Touched" 😛):

IMO, I don't think Spike ever put Buffy on a pedestal because he understood her dark secrets, and didn't judge her. That was his whole point in "Touched," which I also love so much 😀 Buffy said he only wanted her (mainly in s6) because she was "unattainable," the forbidden fruit sort of speak. But, he got really mad over that comment and told her it was never about him and what he wanted, but about Buffy and what he loved about her. Cue Spike's speech and commence tears 🙂

 

[prophecygrrl]

I totally agree with you! For the longest time, I thought I was the only Spuffyer who felt that Spike didn't intend to rape her. He was doing what *they* always did... fight, then have awesome sex. Buffy often started out saying "no, no, no" and then said "yes, yes, yes!" And the look on his face when he realized that he was actually hurting her... OMG, that breaks my heart completely wide open. And Buffy is crying, and she says "ask me again why I could never love you"... ~sigh~!... sad, sad, sad. 🙁

Honestly, I don't look at it as an attempted rape. He didn't attempt to rape her. He attempted to have sex with her. I don't think he realized there wasn't a part of her that wanted it until she kicked him across the room... that's why he was so horrified and disgusted with himself. He was confused and frustrated and just trying to make her love him in the only way he knew how. When that didn't work, he went to get a soul so he could know how to love her and be the man she needed. It's an awful scene to watch, but not because he's raping her... but rather because he's so confused. He has no idea what's going on. And it's heartbreaking. He's hurting her, which is the last thing he wants to do and comes to the realization, as he is at that point, he'll never be the man she needs... the man she loves.

I disagree. You make some good points, but I think that scene is absolutely attempted rape, and that's exactly why Spike is so disgusted with himself. I understand the gray area about how it started or his intentions, considering their entire relationship is based on dubious consent (Buffy saying no, the violence, Spike even telling her to leave at one point in "Gone", etc.). But Spike's intentions really don't matter in this instance, because Buffy is the victim. In that act, she is rendered powerless. I can't stress enough that BUFFY is the victim. Spike may feel horrible about it, he may hate himself, and my heart goes out to him when he's self-flagellating over it, but HE hurt BUFFY. I'm sorry, but my sympathies lie with her in that scene. No woman should ever have that happen to her, and certainly not by the man she loves (or grows to love, depending on how you view their season 6 relationship).

In the context of their whole season 6 relationship, however, (and this is why I think the writing for the bathroom scene is just terrible and contradictory), Spike is HARDLY the aggressor. Buffy's the one with most of the power in their relationship. She uses him for sex, and then shames herself for it. A lot of the self-destruction is exactly that- SELF destruction. A lot of the overall destructiveness of it is in the abuse of Spike BY Buffy. It's a very interesting gender reversal there as far as unhealthy heterosexual relationships go, but in Seeing Red, the writers completely contradict themselves. Suddenly, SPIKE is the one with the power. SPIKE is the one saddled with the sins of their relationship. SPIKE is the abusive boyfriend. SPIKE is the one made to deal with the consequences of his actions, whereas Buffy gets off scot-free. I hate when Spuffy fans hate on Buffy for it, but the way it was written was really shoddy and unfair to both of their characters. Their relationship certainly wasn't healthy for either of them, but for the most part, Spike was never explicitly abusive of Buffy in season six. Not until that scene. It just doesn't make sense in the context of their relationship.

But in that scene, YES, I believe it IS rape. He even realizes that, and he never forgives himself for it. I don't think he gets his soul so that he could love her or be with her. He doesn't get it FOR her love, but rather out of his own volition, because of what HE did TO her. He says at different points that he gets it because "she deserves it", but the way it read to me was that he also desperately wanted to be "a kind of man", like he says in "Beneath You". She was everything to him, and in betraying her, it stands to reason that he also betrayed himself. Everything he did after getting his soul (sacrificing himself in "Chosen", becoming a champion, proving his worthiness in Season 5 of ATS, becoming his own man in the comics), IMO, wasn't necessarily about Buffy anymore. It was definitely inspired by her (one of the things I love about their relationship, the ability to inspire each other), but not done FOR her anymore.

He also explicitly states in "Touched" that he isn't looking for anything from her. And in the months after he gets his soul, he doesn't seek Buffy out at all. Spike doesn't go over to Revello Drive and say, we can be together, I've got a soul now. She's the one offering him help, taking him in, and believing in him, because in the Buffyverse, it absolutely makes sense that a demon who sought out his own soul deserves a chance at redemption.

To me, this is also where the writing failed to distinguish between Buffyverse and our reality. The gravity of Spike's quest for his soul is HUGE. But there's no real life equivalent of this quest for redemption, so for those of us who see the universe of BTVS as largely metaphorical, it's difficult to reconcile Spike's actions and consequences with our own perceptions. I stand by my previous statement that the bathroom scene should never have happened. It's too shrouded in gray considering the complexity of their relationship, and if the writers were really trying to make a statement about rape and abusive relationships, it is way too unclear.

Everything here is strictly my opinion, though. One of the things I love about BTVS are the endless interpretations of it, so please understand that while I'm disagreeing, I'm not saying you're wrong. Sorry if it sounds that way sometimes. I just have really strong feelings about "Seeing Red". 😱

Sorry for the long post!

---------- Post added at 02:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:43 PM ----------

IMO, I don't think Spike ever put Buffy on a pedestal because he understood her dark secrets, and didn't judge her. That was his whole point in "Touched," which I also love so much Buffy said he only wanted her (mainly in s6) because she was "unattainable," the forbidden fruit sort of speak. But, he got really mad over that comment and told her it was never about him and what he wanted, but about Buffy and what he loved about her. Cue Spike's speech and commence tears

Great point!

I think when he first becomes obsessed with her (the Buffy shrine in "Crush" was hilarious and a little creepy), he does put her up on a pedestal. She's the epitome of everything good and wrong to him. But yes, I think as he really starts to understand his love for her in later season 5, 6, and 7, he takes her off that pedestal. It's why she feels comfortable telling him about Heaven and not the Scoobies, and why she puts her trust in him and confesses her insecurities to him in Season 7.

Maybe pedestal is the wrong way to put it...I interpreted the "not putting her up on a pedestal" thing as more not using her as his sole reason to live/moral compass anymore. He's a hero through and through by the end of season 7, and he's got his own compass now.

 

[StarSlayer]

But in that scene, YES, I believe it IS rape.

Well, attempted rape. Buffy was able to stop him before it got too far.

He even realizes that, and he never forgives himself for it. I don't think he gets his soul so that he could love her or be with her. He doesn't get it FOR her love, but rather out of his own volition, because of what HE did TO her.

I somewhat agree here. I think part of Spike wants to gets his soul because he thinks that will make Buffy be with him. Buffy mentions to Spike in "Beneath You" that he just thought he could came back and be with her. And Spike sheepishly says, "First time for everything."

I noticed we're getting into the bathroom scene, which is a tough topic. I've discussed this scene a lot in other threads, so I wanted to post something I wrote about it a while back. First, I want to say that I believe Spike was wrong for his actions. I then looked at the scene, mainly Spike's actions, from a legal perspective.

Here's what California law says about the matter:

For attempted rape:

Unlike rape, attempt or assault with intent are what the law calls "specific intent" crimes. This means that in order to find an accused guilty, the prosecutor must show the accused intended to have intercourse by force or threat of injury and against the will of the victim. Even if the accused unreasonably believes the victim is consenting, the accused does not have the intent necessary for the crime.

However...

A person can commit forcible rape negligently. If the accused did not, but should have, realized that the victim was not consenting, but was submitting because of a perception of force or threat of injury, the accused is guilty of rape.

IMO, this would be the stronger argument against Spike because we're really not dealing with intent here. We're dealing with what the reasonable person would believe. So, in that sense, Spike should have realized that Buffy meant "no" and was not consenting. One can certainly argue that Spike didn't have the specific intent to rape Buffy based on how California defines attempt. However, he certainly can be found negligent and reckless with his actions.

---------- Post added at 06:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 PM ----------

I think when he first becomes obsessed with her (the Buffy shrine in "Crush" was hilarious and a little creepy), he does put her up on a pedestal. She's the epitome of everything good and wrong to him. But yes, I think as he really starts to understand his love for her in later season 5, 6, and 7, he takes her off that pedestal. It's why she feels comfortable telling him about Heaven and not the Scoobies, and why she puts her trust in him and confesses her insecurities to him in Season 7.

Hmmm. With s5, I don't know if he even put her up on a pedestal then, lol. I mean, he definitely had an obsession with her, as he was trying to sort out all of his feelings. But, I always saw it as more of a fantasy and curiosity (up until "Intervention') rather than like "I must have this, I must attain this, in order to be happy."

Maybe pedestal is the wrong way to put it...I interpreted the "not putting her up on a pedestal" thing as more not using her as his sole reason to live/moral compass anymore. He's a hero through and through by the end of season 7, and he's got his own compass now.

Good point and I agree 🙂 For me, when I think of "putting up on a pedestal," I think of like attaining someone or something for a trophy, or having an unrealistic image of someone or something ::cough:: Buffy's image of Angel ::cough:: :biggrin3:

 

[The Unspoken]

Beings without a soul aren't capable of love the way humans are. I think this has been said or implied several times on Buffy and Angel. Darla getting knocked up and her love (?) for her unborn child: also very interesting.

Anyway, the AR scene can be interpreted as either Spike misinterpreting Buffy's intentions (because of the way they'd usually have sex) or wanting to rape her to somehow fix their relationship. Both scenario's are a result of his lack of a soul. We see Spike having a lot of remorse and guilt about it and I'm not sure if that fits with the first scenario, which can be argued was an accident (since his intent wasn't to rape her). Of course it felt like an attempted rape to Buffy either way, and he might be guilty about that, even if he didn't intend to rape her.

 

[Tranquillity]

Beings without a soul aren't capable of love the way humans are

Well that is fairly subjective considering that yes, it was said in Buffy numerous times but it was also contradicted numerous times. So who really knows.

My Answers:

1. Has the fandom changed your opinion/perception of Spike/Buffy, for better or for worse?

After watching the show when it originally aired i just assumed everyone was a Spuffy. The internet was kinda new and I mostly just read spoilers rather than interact with the fandom so I knew nothing. Then about five years ago, when I was getting back into Buffy I discovered the truth about how fractured this fandom is in shipping terms. It made me very careful about what I say in certain online places. But It has really only strengthened my love of Spuffy - so many really clever people write beautiful, beautiful peices of meta and analysis that help you crystalise your own thoughts and make you even more devoted to the ship. That being said I have seen some crazy-assed shippers out there! Some (none of them here) make me cringe with their fanaticism and rudeness to other forum members.

2. How would Joyce feel about Spike/Buffy?

Oh god, she'd hate it. Spike is a vampire. End of story.

3. Hottest Spike/Buffy scene?

Smashed with a side-order of Once More With Feeling end kiss.

4. Spike and Buffy: better in their comedic or dramatic moments?

Too close to call. JM and SMG had such superb chemistry together that I really do believe they bought out the best in each other as actors. Did they ever do a scene together that wasn't completely compelling regardless of whether it was comedy or drama?

5. In your opinion, what is currently the biggest obstacle that Buffy and Spike would have to work around before they could get involved again?

Buffy's idealisation of Angel is the biggest obstical. Buffy and Angel need to spend some time together - find out who they are NOW and stop trading on their past as the 'one true love' of the other. They need a dose of realism rather than romanticism and to see if they really do feel the same way about eachother as they used to. But while Angel pops in and out of her life and always seems 'larger than life' and 'perfect' and the 'one who got away' then she will never see him for who he really is and he will never see her for who she really is and they will both continue to be bound to the past. . . Spike and her may well get involved again, on some level but until she faces reality with Angel then Spike will always seem like second best. Man, sorry to finish on a downer... I'm gonna go read that meta that prophecygrrl recomended. i need to cheer myself up.

 

[StarSlayer]

Beings without a soul aren't capable of love the way humans are. I think this has been said or implied several times on Buffy and Angel.

I disagree. As Dru says in "Crush," vampires (implying ones without souls) can love quite well, if not wisely. And I think she was right, as crazy as she often was, lol!

Anyway, the AR scene can be interpreted as either Spike misinterpreting Buffy's intentions (because of the way they'd usually have sex) or wanting to rape her to somehow fix their relationship.

At no point do I feel Spike wanted to do it. The look on his face after it happened says it all. I believe the demon inside him got the best of him. Getting his soul was a means to control that demon. At least that's how I see it.

 

[Francy79]

My answers:

1. Has the fandom changed your opinion/perception of Spike/Buffy, for better or for worse?

Not in the way I love Spuffy. I have always loved Spuffy, and always will... the fandom just gives me other ways (other than watching the show) of keeping that love alive, and of sharing that love with other people (in RL no one I know watches Buffy).

But the fandom, at one point, drove me away from Btvs. I couldn't handle the Spike hate or the shipper wars any longer, I had discussed and argued with haters to the point of exhaustion, and I simply needed a break. For more than 3 years I have stayed away from anything Btvs-related (even though I was always on BF to chat with my friends, so it was very difficult LOL), and I was sure I was over this show for good (I felt sick at the thought of watching it), even though I always had a soft spot for Spuffy in my heart.

But then, a couple of months ago I randomly put on my Btvs dvds on for the first time in years, and BAM! I was sucked back into the show again. That, combined with Spike's arrival in season 8 (which I had always avoided like the plague), brought me back into the fandom. And here I am! 😀


2. How would Joyce feel about Spike/Buffy?

She would object to it. Regardless of whether she likes Spike or not, she wants for her daughter what every mother wants for her children: the best. Which a future with a vampire cannot provide.

Also, Dawn reacted very badly to finding out about the AR. I can only guess that Joyce would have been just as defensive of Buffy as Dawn was.


3. Hottest Spike/Buffy scene?

The end of Smashed, of course... but also Buffy's dream in Dead Things!


4. Spike and Buffy: better in their comedic or dramatic moments?

Both. I can't choose... both things are part of the fantastic package that is Spuffy. One of my favourite scene is in Something Blue, when Spike is tied up in Giles' bathtub, and Buffy is taunting him! LMAO!


5. In your opinion, what is currently the biggest obstacle that Buffy and Spike would have to work around before they could get involved again?

Mmmh... Buffy's fixation with Angel, and her idealization of him and their "destined" love. Love is blind, and as long as she has her Angel blindfolds on, she will never really see Spike. She will never realize that he is the one who gets her, and the one with whom she could actually have a real relationship with, based on all the right things.

Also, the writers! 😛 I think that they consider B/A the trademark/iconic relationship of the Buffyverse (the two "heroes" - I don't consider Angel much of a hero, but that's for another topic - destined to be together, but unable to because of stronger forces), they will never completely stop playing the tragic love card, because they think it sells copies.

 

[xaphania]

1. Has the fandom changed your opinion/perception of Spike/Buffy, for better or for worse?

Fandom keeps my love for Spike/Buffy alive. I wouldn't be this big a Spuffy shipper were it not for fandom. Fic, meta, art - it all feeds my love for the ship. I feel incredibly lucky and priveliged to be part of such a wonderful fandom. ♥

2. How would Joyce feel about Spike/Buffy?

I think she'd be disappointed at first, but come to accept it later. Though, if Joyce had been alive I don't think that Spike and Buffy's relationship would have progressed as it did in canon.

3. Hottest Spike/Buffy scene?

Difficult one... but probably the beginning of Wrecked.

4. Spike and Buffy: better in their comedic or dramatic moments?

Both are wonderful but I think the dramatic moments pip the comedic moments to the post. Beneath You comes immediately to mind.

5. In your opinion, what is currently the biggest obstacle that Buffy and Spike would have to work around before they could get involved again?

Well... I don't count the comics so I can't really answer this one. 😉

 

[StarSlayer]

3. Hottest Spike/Buffy scene?

I know I already gave an answer here, but I also think Spike's dream in "Out of Your Mind" is a hot Spuffy scene. And I'm just gonna go ahead and say it... any scene where Buffy and Spike are making out is hot, lol 😀

 

[prophecygrrl]

Hm, there's always been a ton of discussion on this topic, so I'm wondering what you guys think. Recently, anyway, there was a mini (a little one-sided though, the Bangels are more vocal by far) discussion of it in the tumblr Buffy fandom. People always bring up the point that the Bangels/Angel stans don't resent Angelus for his crimes nearly as much as they do soulless Spike.

The question is this: is it fair to compare soulless Spike to Angelus when it comes to their crimes? Do you think there's a double standard for them, or do you think the expectations are within reason?