Spuffy #4 - General Discussion

[zobothehobo]

The double standards between Angelus/soulless Spike piss me off. They piss me off within the show and they piss me off within the fandom. They're not fair. Not fair at all and if someone tries to argue against that, I WILL bite their head off.

 

[StarSlayer]

Hm, there's always been a ton of discussion on this topic, so I'm wondering what you guys think. Recently, anyway, there was a mini (a little one-sided though, the Bangels are more vocal by far) discussion of it in the tumblr Buffy fandom. People always bring up the point that the Bangels/Angel stans don't resent Angelus for his crimes nearly as much as they do soulless Spike.

The question is this: is it fair to compare soulless Spike to Angelus when it comes to their crimes? Do you think there's a double standard for them, or do you think the expectations are within reason?

When it comes to their past crimes, I don't think it's fair at all, especially when Buffy herself actually forgives both Angel and Spike (when they have souls). Angelus killed Jenny, tortured Giles (a father figure to Buffy), emotionally abused Buffy, and nearly killed her and her friends. Spike tried to kill her and her friends several times, and we can't forget the bathroom scene. Both were guilty of horrible crimes before and after they met Buffy. For Buffy to forgive both of them when they had souls is something I think others (some characters and fans) don't understand. Yet, Buffy is after all "full of love." If she doesn't hold Spike to a higher standard than Angelus, why should we? That's how I've always seen it 🙂

For example, with Xander, if someone was a vampire, they were evil because they had no soul. Despite any good they did, it could not make up for their past crimes. At the end of the day, they still had no soul and shouldn't be trusted. Quite frankly, I hate Xander when he says things like that. Also, with Dawn, after Spike got a soul, she still didn't believe he changed or was good because she didn't think "getting a soul" meant someone was automatically good. She based this on the fact Xander left Anya at the alter. And, honestly, these are the arguments against Spike I hear all the time.

However, for Buffy, it was always a big deal when a vampire had a soul because it made them somewhat human. They weren't necessarily stereotyped as evil anymore. When she initially became the slayer, Buffy believed all vampires were evil. They were demons inside human bodies. The human inside was dead. Then Angel came along, who changed her perspective on things. He was unique because he had a soul. As such, she didn't treat him like any other vampire, and for good reason. He was different.

Buffy's perspective on things changed again with Spike, mainly from "Intervention" onward. She saw that he (a soulless vampire) was capable of good without a soul. Maybe that's why others expect so much from Spike. A part of him was still human after being sired and that does make Spike very much different from Angel/Angelus. He also wanted to change when he had no soul, unlike Angelus who was evil to the very core. Nonetheless, there was still a demon inside Spike. I always felt that Spike's inner struggle was between this demon and his humanity. When he got the chip, the demon seemed to be silenced (since it wasn't as active), allowing his human side to resurface. In s6, when he was able to fight Buffy (a human) again, I believe the demon sort reawakened because it was, in a sense, being controlled by the chip. The demon in Spike got way out of control in the bathroom scene, triggering the human side in Spike to do something about it. He faced the monster inside and fought back, as Buffy later said.

So, when Spike got a soul, she knew it was a major thing. She not only believed, but felt that Spike changed for the better. He could be a good man, but he needed someone to believe and trust in him. And Buffy did. 🙂

 

[BananaBuffy]

I don't really think it's fair to compare two completely different characters without their souls. The only reason Bangel's don't resent Angel for his crimes is because of their love for the Buffy and Angel relationship and believe that they can strive through anything or whatever. And so they resent Spike and go against all of his crimes that he committed and all that while being soulless.

Both have done terrible things. Angel was a killer, one of the most well known and highly rated killers there was. He did terrible things for the art of it. Everything was well thought out and it was all extremely ugly. He killed people close to Buffy, Jenny. He tortured Giles for pleasure. In other words, he caused one of Buffy's closest compaions complete and utter pain both ways. Killing his girlfriend and torturing him. Not to mention he threaterned people and tried to kill Buffy herself.
Spike, also, killed a fair amount. He tried to kill Buffy a lot in the third seasons, wishes to kill her in the fourth season but...chip. He attempted to rape her and all that but we'll notice that Buffy was with him even without a soul. She could never have been with 'Angelus' because of all the things he was doing. Maybe it has something to do with the chip or whatever but I'm just going to play that point.

I thought I would say more but there ya go.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I agree with all of you!

I just wanted to add how much the fandom reaction really bugs me when it comes to shipping. A lot of them assume that we Spuffies take what happened with soulless Spike lightly. As if we completely absolve him of any guilt or wrongdoing *just* because of he got a soul. Of course the soul profoundly changed things, but everything he did once he fell in love with Buffy (even before the soul-having) is an essential part of his character arc too. Even the horrible things. It's just a terrible double standard to have, and I take it really personally when anti-Spuffies snipe about how I can ship Spike and Buffy after all the horrible things they did to each other in season six. It's not like I ship them because I ignore that huge chunk of their history. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite. I ship them because they went through all of that AND faced it together to come out even stronger. Can't say the same for Bangel.

Lol sorry about that last line. Feeling a bit snarky today. 😉

 

[StarSlayer]

It's just a terrible double standard to have, and I take it really personally when anti-Spuffies snipe about how I can ship Spike and Buffy after all the horrible things they did to each other in season six. It's not like I ship them because I ignore that huge chunk of their history. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite. I ship them because they went through all of that AND faced it together to come out even stronger. Can't say the same for Bangel.

EXACTLY! 😀 One of the reasons I love Spuffy so much is that out of their arguments, fighting, and violence, something so beautiful happened. In fact, when some people ask how we can ship Spuffy based on all the abuse and violence in s6, I'm like "Did you not watch season 7?" They say we're ignoring the bad things (even though we're not), but they're actually ignoring the good things that happened afterward. The way both Buffy and Spike were able to work through things, find comfort and safety in each other, grow to truly trust and love one another after all that in s6 just fascinates me. I ship Spuffy through the good, the bad, and the ugly 🙂

Lol sorry about that last line. Feeling a bit snarky today. 😉

It's the Back Steps. IMO, you're allowed here 😉

 

[prophecygrrl]

EXACTLY! 😀 One of the reasons I love Spuffy so much is that out of their arguments, fighting, and violence, something so beautiful happened. In fact, when some people ask how we can ship Spuffy based on all the abuse and violence in s6, I'm like "Did you not watch season 7?" They say we're ignoring the bad things (even though we're not), but they're actually ignoring the good things that happened afterward. The way both Buffy and Spike were able to work through things, find comfort and safety in each other, grow to truly trust and love one another after all that in s6 just fascinates me. I ship Spuffy through the good, the bad, and the ugly 🙂



It's the Back Steps. IMO, you're allowed here 😉

Hehe, good! I love having the freedom to snark. 😉

I just hate when fandom holds that ridiculous double standard. To be fair, a few of the fringe Spuffy fans DO use the soulless-ness thing as a simple end-all explanation for everything bad in S6 (and nothing is or should ever be "simple" between Spike and Buffy; their complexity is what MAKES the ship), just the same as the fringe/stereotypical Bangel fan will take the abusive aspect of Spuffy in S6 out of context. Fandom wank is just something we all have to accept, but UGH sometimes. I hate when people bash our ship for stupid reasons. >.<

 

[Tranquillity]

What I really hate is the "Seperate Entity" theory - I hate it when people say that Angel and Angelus are completely seperate beings and so therefore Angel is not responsible for anything Angelus did. Funny, you never see anyone making the same argument for Spike 😉 In my opinion Angel gets off easier because his souless self has a special and distinct name and it makes his actions as Angelus 'seperate' from Angel. Spike of course has no such distinction. If Spike and Angel are distinct from the Soulless Spike and Soulless Angel then they would not be responsible for any of the actions of their unsoulled selves and their redemptive journies would be uneccessary. And that would be boring.

 

[zobothehobo]

What I really hate is the "Seperate Entity" theory - I hate it when people say that Angel and Angelus are completely seperate beings and so therefore Angel is not responsible for anything Angelus did. Funny, you never see anyone making the same argument for Spike 😉 In my opinion Angel gets off easier because his souless self has a special and distinct name and it makes his actions as Angelus 'seperate' from Angel. Spike of course has no such distinction. If Spike and Angel are distinct from the Soulless Spike and Soulless Angel then they would not be responsible for any of the actions of their unsoulled selves and their redemptive journies would be uneccessary. And that would be boring.

I agree with this completely... but I'd like to add I think another reason Angel gets off easy is that we met him with a soul. We met Spike as soulless Spike trying to kill Buffy. We met Angel as souled Angel trying to save Buffy. We saw Angelus for half a season in season 2. IMO Angelus did more damage in that half a season than soulless Spike did in his 4 seasons but that's another discussion... Because we met Spike as a villain, it's easier to hold him accountable for his soulless actions than it is to hold Angel, who we met as a hero, accountable for his.

 

[BananaBuffy]

I agree with this completely... but I'd like to add I think another reason Angel gets off easy is that we met him with a soul. We met Spike as soulless Spike trying to kill Buffy. We met Angel as souled Angel trying to save Buffy. We saw Angelus for half a season in season 2. IMO Angelus did more damage in that half a season than soulless Spike did in his 4 seasons but that's another discussion... Because we met Spike as a villain, it's easier to hold him accountable for his soulless actions than it is to hold Angel, who we met as a hero, accountable for his.

Yeah, you're right. The Bangel fans and everybody really is very pro-Angel because for the majority of his time on the show...he had a soul. He was the good Vampire, the one you were supposed to support and love and al lthat. But all that changed when they introduced Angelus into Season Two. But yet, he already had such a strong fanbase that people were still behind him 100%, very supportive and just waiting for him to get out of the 'phase'. Once he did, they somehow managed to forget everything that he did and moved on. But yet, they accuse the Spuffers of overlooking all Spike's faults when he didn't have a soul.

Prior to meeting Angel in Season One, we do learn that he has a history of being one of the most murderous Vampires there ever was. But because he's changed and nobody had seen that throughout Season One and start of Season Two, the ones who were in total support of Angel chose to overlook it. I admitt, I overlooked it too but I deal with the whole Spike killed people thing also. Spike committed henious crimes. They care way more about what Spike did than they care about what Angel did and in my opinion, Angel did way worse. He killed, actually killed, people close to Buffy for fun. Spike didn't, he never suceeded.

The troubles, the battles, the hate and the pain is why I love Spuffy in the first place. They suffered so much and yet survive until the end because they actually do truly love each other, or so I believe. I believe that Buffy meant what she said at the end of Chosen because she had grown to love him over time. I think she really had loved him for longer than she cared to admitt but just didn't realize it. He did do some horrible things to her, she did some horrible things to him. But it was them getting through that that made everything so wonderfully beautiful. The sex, the lies, the lust...it was all amazing. It's what makes the ship such an epic ship to sail.

 

[StarSlayer]

So, I wrote this a while ago and since there's been a lot of new Spuffies around, I thought I'd post it again in this thread. It was in response to a Bangel vow. Hope you enjoy 😀

My Spuffy Vow

I promise to stay loyal and true to Spuffy 😀
The idea of Bangel is just too fluffy
Claddagh rings, snowflakes, and first love
Can’t beat the fire and passion of great love

I promise to honor and protect Spuffy
No matter how heated debates may be
Because I know in my heart and soul
That Spuffy is the only ship for me

The story of Spuffy is complex
And not for the faint of heart
But, the feelings they shared were real
And the love that developed pure art

Sarah and James made me believe
That these enemies grew to love the other
It’s Pride and Prejudice and Vampires
Minus the crazy-matchmaker mother

There will be a day, mark my words
When Bangels set sail on the Spuffy ship
Where the cookies are fresh and already baked
And enjoyed by a vampire no longer with a chip

In the mean time, I promise to uphold
The love, trust, and devotion that Spuffy told
It’s not destiny nor is it fate
It’s real love shared by two souls, mate! :biggrin3:

 

[msfantastico87]

I'm totally going to take this Vow. That was beautiful 😀

 

[Tranquillity]

Do we need some more questions yet?

Answer any or all...

1. What are your top 5 non-angsty Spike/Buffy scenes?

2. Which do you think is James's best Spike/Buffy scene, acting-wise? Sarah's?

3. Pick one fanfiction scene that you would've liked to see played out onscreen (or in the comics

4. What's your favourite season for Buffy? What's your favourite season for Spike?

5. What did you think of the final Spike/Buffy scene in BtVS (TV medium), when you first watched it? Has your opinion of it changed since then?

 

[StarSlayer]

1. What are your top 5 non-angsty Spike/Buffy scenes?
Only 5? Yikes, lol!
1.) In "After Life," when Spike sees Buffy walking down the stairs.
2.) The last scene in "Intervention."
3.) The last scene in "Showtime."
4.) Something Blue. Enough said, lol 😀
5.) The scene in "Potential," when Buffy wants to see if Spike is all right.

2. Which do you think is James's best Spike/Buffy scene, acting-wise? Sarah's?
I think James' best Spike/Buffy scene...oh God, there's a ton, but I would have to pick his monologue in "Beneath You." He's just able to convey so much emotion, although his face is in darkness half the time. His speech to Buffy in "Touched" comes in a close second.

I think Sarah's best Spike/Buffy scene, and she has a ton too, would be her monologue in "After Life." She's able to finally express all these feelings she's had since coming to life, but doing so in a calm and collective way. Despite being around her friends and family, there's still a sadness there that Sarah brilliantly portrays. Although Spike really just sits and listens, I still think it's a great Spike/Buffy scene for Sarah because she's also able to show that she feels comfortable around Spike, which allows her to talk and say what's been on her mind for a while. Very similar to Spike's earlier scene when he talks about how he saved Buffy. Another great scene for James too 🙂

3. Pick one fanfiction scene that you would've liked to see played out onscreen (or in the comics
I haven't read enough fanfiction yet to answer this question well. I'll leave it to the rest of you 🙂

4. What's your favourite season for Buffy? What's your favourite season for Spike?
My favorite season for Buffy would either be s5, s6, or s7. I know Buffy is completely different in each season, but that's what I like. I like how we see her character go from a self-sacrificing hero, who realizes her purpose as the slayer, to feeling depressed and even lost after being resurrected, to rediscovering her purpose as the slayer and embracing it like never before.

My favorite season for Spike would either be s5 or s7. In s5, I like seeing him figure out what his feeling for Buffy mean in s5. Are they genuine or is it just some crazy fantasy? In s7, I like seeing how Spike with a soul affects him and the people around him, especially Buffy. I also like seeing Spike's inner struggle and rediscovering the good inside him.

5. What did you think of the final Spike/Buffy scene in BtVS (TV medium), when you first watched it? Has your opinion of it changed since then?
I first saw the last scene in "Chosen" this summer, in July sometime. When I first saw it, I cried my eyes out. And I still do. I was so happy Buffy finally admitted her feelings for Spike (because they were there). At the same time, I was so sad Buffy chose this moment to tell Spike. But, I knew she meant it. When Spike said she didn't, but thanks for saying it, I honestly didn't know what to make of that at first. Did he really mean it? Did he know that she genuinely loved her and wasn't just saying for the sake of saying it? I probably re-watched that scene a dozen times and after I did, I truly believe Spike knew that Buffy loved him in a romantic way when he died.

The scene still has the same effect on me when I watch it in that I still cry. Yet, I cry more now over the fact that the scene is so beautiful. Both felt their feelings for each other, both knew that they loved each other, and both knew that they didn't know if or when (since it is the Buffyverse afterall, lol) they would see each other again. Spike also became the champion that Buffy knew he could become. They proved everyone wrong in that Spike was able to be a good man (a champion no less) and Buffy was right about it. 🙂

---------- Post added at 02:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:46 AM ----------

zobothehobo agrees: I was going to answer these questions myself... but then I read this post and the answers were all my answers and there's nothing I could add to make it better.

Great minds think alike I guess, lol! But, I'm sure you can add your own twist 🙂

 

[Kana]

I hope you don’t mind if I hijack your thread but some of these discussions were really interesting. My friend and I were working on a pet project on the nature of evil and what makes someone evil and it got me thinking about Spike and Spuffy

Now the thing that really caught my was the Bangel/Spuffy double standard. Now I find the people most vocal about the evil of soulless Spike to be the Bangel/Angel purists as I call them. Now their argument is not a stupid as it sounds.

Now as I’ve said before, the ‘lines are less defined’ with Spike and Spuffy. This isn’t a question of fairness but more a representation of the way it is. While Angel was a vampire when he first met Buffy, he had a soul, a conscience, a human heart. He was able to love and feel empathy and they fell in love. Ok, that’s all fine and dandy.

Now when he lost his soul, despite the period whereby he was playing her, Angelus established himself as the enemy. As soon as he lost his soul, their relationship essentially ended. Now many argue that in a way they both loved each other, but I wouldn’t say so. In Beauty and the Beasts, Platt portrayed the metaphor of how Bangel played out in the last season, but it doesn’t explain the actual turn of events literally. Buffy had trouble killing Angelus because he was wearing her boyfriends face. Now this seems as if I’m arguing my old Theory 1 in terms of vampirism. That is to say that the soul is the spirit, which for the purpose of this exercise, I’m not, to keep things simple. I’m not saying that Angel was a quantitatively different person but a qualitivley different person. In other words, Buffy never had a relationship with nor did she love Angelus.

So here’s where the Bangel purist attack Spuffy. In their mind, Miss Calander’s murder doesn’t taint Bangel because Buffy, as soon as she realise what he was ceased the relationship. However, she was involved with Spike without a soul, so they could argue that the AR although it happened after Buffy broke up with Spike, he was still the same guy who was involved with.

From an emotional perspective, what makes it more jarring, because Spike said he loved Buffy, so doing what he did made it seem more like a betrayal.

Still is this fair? Spike’s actions post chip seemed ambiguous than evil, and imo even the AR, which is always open to discussion.

Now what do I think??? I actually use Tara as my guide because she’s the one who most closely represents my opinion.

In Crush she says “Everything he did he did out of love for a woman who would never be able to love him back" and "You can tell it's not going to have a happy ending when the main guy's all bumpy",

As it stood at the moment, I think a relationship with Spike wouldn’t have been healthy. A few months ago he was getting off on a tale about killing Slayers and implied that he’d enjoy it when Buffy finally succumbed to her death wish. Not only that, earlier on in the season, he tried to get the chip out and kill her. A quick pat on the shoulder at the end of FFL shouldn’t make us forget everything he’s done before.

In Intervention, again Tara says that if she’s sleeping with Spike, then she’s nuts. People sometimes think this is OOC but I’d argue that Spike’s action up until this point have been, well dodgy really and what he did in Crush didn’t help matters. Post Intervention, it changes things, for obvious reasons.

In Dead Things, Tara says that he’s done a lot of good and it’s ok to love him. She also says it’s ok not to love him. This is the non judgemental behaviour Xander could have learned from. All this said, I like that Buffy at least is beginning to take responsibility for her actions. We can argue that he is evil but Buffy’s strength is allowing her emotions to guide her. Using someone who loves you, should surely be against her code.

Still if I were Tara, I would have supported her. Friendship and love can about understanding, and allowing ourselves to feel empathy for others and feel that connection is what makes us human.

Maybe this is telling of Spike’s changing state. Without a soul, maybe he is ‘hardwired’ a certain way, but that doesn’t mean he cannot express and experience change within the realm of his nature. This is one of the statements of season 6, growing up and morality and personal identity. Not always as straightforward as people would imagine. It’s not about “Me good and you bad” it’s about finding yourself and realising you can be your worst enemy. It almost gets existential in a way. Buffy and soulless Spike never belonged together, but no word of Fate kept them apart. They are not two champion recognising their mutual fate, they are two individuals attempting to find themselves and not always succeeding.

Going totally controversial. There is no telling what a soulless vampire should do. The AR is only wrong if Spike decides it’s wrong and that’s dependent of the journey is chooses to take. This sounds harsh but, despite his protestations of love or the chip, I cannot judge Spike like a human. Without a soul, he isn’t working the same internal impulses as that of a human, so he can’t be blamed for ignoring something that isn’t there. It’s not just about guilt for him but about conflict of identity.

Now I deliberately left out Season 7 Spuffy because I wanted to look at how Spike and Angel’s evil counterparts affected their relationships.

I embrace the ambiguity of Season 6 Spuffy. I allow myself to empathise with soulless Spike because he demands it. We all know what it is to hurt by love, so we make the connection, despite how uncomfortable that makes us feel. While I can say “I don’t understand how don’t feel remorse for you past actions, I can’t relate to that. That side of you I find monstrous.” I can also say “When Buffy rejected you I can understand that feeling. I can relate to that part of you”. Who says I can’t do both? By relating to a vicious killer, at least on some level, it doesn’t make me one, nor does it mean I can relate to every single aspect of his personality and nature.

To balance it out though, I will argue that Bangel is less tainted by the murder of misdeeds of Angelus as Buffy was never in a relationship with Angelus. However, things aren’t always black and white and it could be argued that the soulless Spike isn’t the same qualitive individual that tried to kill Buffy as well…

 

[Tranquillity]

1. What are your top 5 non-angsty Spike/Buffy scenes?

1. Something Blue - the whole darn crazy thing
2. Out for a walk, bitch
3. Superstar - those grave side encounters are just overflowing with sexual tension
4. Becoming part 2 - "I like this world...", the lame cover story they give Joyce 🙂
5. School Hard - "Do we really need weapons for this..."

2. Which do you think is James's best Spike/Buffy scene, acting-wise? Sarah's?

Beneath You, Church scene is excellent for both - Buffy might not say much but her facial expressions, her stillness are superb. They have so many great scenes together in season seven.

Fool for Love is also hard to top - the Spike and Buffy scenes in that are some of the most superbly acted and most compelling television scenes ever.

3. Pick one fanfiction scene that you would've liked to see played out onscreen (or in the comics

I think the one i'm thinking of might be Three Deep (a alternative season 6 of Angel) there are two scenes - One in which Spike and Buffy reunite for the first time since his death and they sort of snark but then fall very much into business as usual, instinctually working side by side to hunt some demon. The dialogue was very good (if I remember correctly). Also from the same story is some scenes with Spike and Dawn on a mission in the Roman catacombes where they sort of fix their fractured relationship. it was very good too. (That being said, Three Deep has some really crazy developments - group weddings, Illyria the nymphomaniac, Spilleria...)

4. What's your favourite season for Buffy? What's your favourite season for Spike?

Favourite season for both is Five and Seven - not that I don't love season Six, I totally do but from a character perspective five and seven are more flattering for both Spike and Buffy.

5. What did you think of the final Spike/Buffy scene in BtVS (TV medium), when you first watched it? Has your opinion of it changed since then?

Oh Yes! When I first watched it (acctually when I first read spoilers of the episode because we were a couple of months behind in Australia back then) I was very confused and upset by Spike's "no you don't, but thanks for saying it" response. It just seemed to pull the rug out from under Spuffy but then I saw it on the television and saw how beautifully it was played and the burning hands and all and loved it but still didn't really understand it. I have since read many interpretations of the scene, examined the whole series in depth and am now completely content with that particular ending, his words and how I interpret them. Thank God for clever people and Meta!!

 

[StarSlayer]

Phew, Kana. That's a lot to take in 🙂

So here's where the Bangel purist attack Spuffy. In their mind, Miss Calander's murder doesn't taint Bangel because Buffy, as soon as she realise what he was ceased the relationship. However, she was involved with Spike without a soul, so they could argue that the AR although it happened after Buffy broke up with Spike, he was still the same guy who was involved with.

From an emotional perspective, what makes it more jarring, because Spike said he loved Buffy, so doing what he did made it seem more like a betrayal.

Still is this fair? Spike's actions post chip seemed ambiguous than evil, and imo even the AR, which is always open to discussion.

For me, I never really saw Spike's actions post chip as ambiguous. Instead, I saw his actions as ways of figuring out what his purpose was now and where he belonged. Before falling in love with Buffy, he still wanted to do evil and bring down the Scoobies. He only fought demons to scratch the itch of violence off. Yet, falling in love with Buffy then made things more complicated.

With that said, I understand the argument against Spike and the bathroom scene, but at the end of the day, he was a vampire with no soul (like Angelus). He tried to be good without a soul, but the harsh truth was that he couldn't, as shown in that scene. When I hear the argument that Angelus killing Jenny doesn't taint Buffy and Angel's relationship (since the relationship ended when Angel became Angelus), I have to disagree. When Angel came back in s3, he was again feeling that guilt of killing Jenny, torturing Giles, and all the new crimes he did when he became Angelus. As such, it put a strain on their relationship. Now, many Spuffies, including myself, do not ignore the bathroom scene. In fact, I agree that it does taint their relationship, but only for a time being. I don't ignore the things soulless Spike did just for the sake of saying that it doesn't taint their relationship.

In Crush she says "Everything he did he did out of love for a woman who would never be able to love him back" and "You can tell it's not going to have a happy ending when the main guy's all bumpy",

As it stood at the moment, I think a relationship with Spike wouldn't have been healthy. A few months ago he was getting off on a tale about killing Slayers and implied that he'd enjoy it when Buffy finally succumbed to her death wish. Not only that, earlier on in the season, he tried to get the chip out and kill her. A quick pat on the shoulder at the end of FFL shouldn't make us forget everything he's done before.

In s5, I agree. Buffy still considered him a monster who wasn't capable of any good. From the audience point of view though, at least mine, the last scene in FFL did spark my interest that maybe Spike can be good and a decent person. The order of events was that Spike first wanted to kill her when he thought the chip was removed. He then had the dream about Buffy, but didn't know what to make of it. He didn't know if it was just some crazy dream or if he really had feelings. In FFL, after Buffy said that he was beneath her, Spike seemed to have a reality check. That he was evil and he wanted to kill the slayer. The pain of the chip didn't matter. But, something inside him changed when he saw Buffy in that vulnerable position. He could have easily shot her then, but he didn't. IMO, that one act (since we saw it) may be enough to show that despite the evil Spike has done in the past, he can be capable of good.

Maybe this is telling of Spike's changing state. Without a soul, maybe he is "˜hardwired' a certain way, but that doesn't mean he cannot express and experience change within the realm of his nature. This is one of the statements of season 6, growing up and morality and personal identity. Not always as straightforward as people would imagine. It's not about "Me good and you bad" it's about finding yourself and realising you can be your worst enemy. It almost gets existential in a way. Buffy and soulless Spike never belonged together, but no word of Fate kept them apart. They are not two champion recognising their mutual fate, they are two individuals attempting to find themselves and not always succeeding.

I would also argue that Spuffy in s6 is about two individuals trying to make sense of their feelings for each other.

Going totally controversial. There is no telling what a soulless vampire should do. The AR is only wrong if Spike decides it's wrong and that's dependent of the journey is chooses to take. This sounds harsh but, despite his protestations of love or the chip, I cannot judge Spike like a human. Without a soul, he isn't working the same internal impulses as that of a human, so he can't be blamed for ignoring something that isn't there. It's not just about guilt for him but about conflict of identity.

I can't either and I totally agree with you here 🙂

I embrace the ambiguity of Season 6 Spuffy. I allow myself to empathise with soulless Spike because he demands it. We all know what it is to hurt by love, so we make the connection, despite how uncomfortable that makes us feel. While I can say "I don't understand how don't feel remorse for you past actions, I can't relate to that. That side of you I find monstrous." I can also say "When Buffy rejected you I can understand that feeling. I can relate to that part of you". Who says I can't do both? By relating to a vicious killer, at least on some level, it doesn't make me one, nor does it mean I can relate to every single aspect of his personality and nature.

To balance it out though, I will argue that Bangel is less tainted by the murder of misdeeds of Angelus as Buffy was never in a relationship with Angelus. However, things aren't always black and white and it could be argued that the soulless Spike isn't the same qualitive individual that tried to kill Buffy as well"¦

IMO, Spike and Spuffy is never black and white, lol! But, as I said, I don't know if Bangel is less tainted than Spuffy by the murder and misdeeds of Angelus because it still affects Angel when they are in a relationship.

 

[prophecygrrl]

FFL...great scenes between SMG and JM too! And I should start reading more metas, lol!

There's an especially great one on the ending of 'Chosen' here: http://the-royal-anna.livejournal.com/1340.html


I LOVE this reading of the clasped flaming hands (seriously, that is the most romantic imagery I have EVER seen). There are no words for how much I love it. It basically operates on this idea:

"No you don't" isn't a statement of fact "“ it's an instruction.

I think this meta has already been recommended in the Meta Recs thread so I won't quote it too extensively here, but it's gorgeous imo. I love meta. oh, I don't dare think about how I would be without it!

 

[Spikefan31]

Now this seems as if I’m arguing my old Theory 1 in terms of vampirism

I am very much interested in hearing your theories of vampirism. Is there any particular thread in which they can be found? 🙂

 

[Miss Kitty]

An interesting post by TimeTravellingBunny on BuffyForums, on Spuffy/Bangel in the comics, I really like how she developps her opinion, because it's exactly the way I see it : ... oops, I can't post the link because I don't have 15 posts for the moment... If someone knows the post which I'm talking about, please, share the link 🙂


And about the "dark place" thing, I *love* how Joss sees it, I didn't noticed before.

From her post, there's a link of an Interview of Joss (August 2010), which the title is : "Joss Whedon and writing from the Dark Place". It's really interesting 🙂 Extracts :

The revelation, when it came, surprised him. For the 7 years he wrote Buffy, The Vampire Slayer, he identified with Xander, funny, clueless and never getting laid. Then when he was writing an extended piece of prose about a Buffy-type character, a first person narrative, it struck him that he was bucketing therapy on to the page. Only then did he finally see it – “Buffy was me.”

Writers often talk about creating a loveable character, someone for the reader/audience to relate to. But Whedon describes writing characters that he wants to love him. And in a transmogrification they become him.

His avatar. “She will save my life. I’m tiny, terrified and in need of saving and this girl is going to save my life”

This then was “the dark place” Whedon draws his characters from.

Whedon says, he can’t really understand his own dark place, but he reckons all writers need to find their own dark place.

And a video with the term (again, I can't post the link 🙁 ), but there's a transcript of a part of the video (by TimeTravellingBunny) :

Joss: "The storyteller lives in a dark place, he lives in the urges that people don't want to talk about, he lives in sex and violence on some level... at the very worst, he lives in conflicts between human beings that cannot be resolved. It's not a happy place. (...) When I say dark, I don't necessarily mean painful. I mean the things that people would like to keep hidden. One of my firm beliefs and one of the things that started 'Dollhouse' was the idea that some of the things that people want to keep hidden do not necessarily need to be hidden. And one of the best things that can happen to a person is when they realize that they're not alone. If they have a certain obsession... perversion... whatever it is... that that's not a thing that makes a person terrible. That the thing that they are ashamed of, that happened to them, is something best come to light."


Joss clearly sees a specific meaning to the "dark place" term... and it's not bad. It has a great meaning when Buffy says it to Spike. It's a place where she can be herself and sharing things she doesn't share with anybody else. It's a pretty good thing 🙂 He insists a lot on the term recently, it's nice to see it.

 

[prophecygrrl]

An interesting post by TimeTravellingBunny on BuffyForums, on Spuffy/Bangel in the comics, I really like how she developps her opinion, because it's exactly the way I see it : ... oops, I can't post the link because I don't have 15 posts for the moment... If someone knows the post which I'm talking about, please, share the link 🙂


And about the "dark place" thing, I *love* how Joss sees it, I didn't noticed before.

From her post, there's a link of an Interview of Joss (August 2010), which the title is : "Joss Whedon and writing from the Dark Place". It's really interesting 🙂 Extracts :





And a video with the term (again, I can't post the link 🙁 ), but there's a transcript of a part of the video (by TimeTravellingBunny) :

Joss: "The storyteller lives in a dark place, he lives in the urges that people don't want to talk about, he lives in sex and violence on some level... at the very worst, he lives in conflicts between human beings that cannot be resolved. It's not a happy place. (...) When I say dark, I don't necessarily mean painful. I mean the things that people would like to keep hidden. One of my firm beliefs and one of the things that started 'Dollhouse' was the idea that some of the things that people want to keep hidden do not necessarily need to be hidden. And one of the best things that can happen to a person is when they realize that they're not alone. If they have a certain obsession... perversion... whatever it is... that that's not a thing that makes a person terrible. That the thing that they are ashamed of, that happened to them, is something best come to light."


Joss clearly sees a specific meaning to the "dark place" term... and it's not bad. It has a great meaning when Buffy says it to Spike. It's a place where she can be herself and sharing things she doesn't share with anybody else. It's a pretty good thing 🙂 He insists a lot on the term recently, it's nice to see it.

Oh wow! Thanks for sharing! I knew that he identified with Buffy, but I never knew about the whole 'dark place' thing.

I had initially thought that calling him her 'dark place' was a bad thing. It flashed back to a lot of the unhappy moments in Season Six for me. I see it a lot differently now...I might be reaching, but the possibility of a happy Spuffy ending (or even just a nice Spuffy reconciliation/conversation) is a little brighter.