Spuffy #5 - General Discussion

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Tranquillity

That'll put marzipan in your pie plate bingo
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New Spuffy thread!! Keep that conversation coming.

In our previous thread the events of issue #39 were under discussion - so was Spike important to the plot? Could his role have been covered by someone else? Future prospects for Spuffy?

I'll post some new discussion questions soon 🙂
 
He was so not important to the plot. Like his role could have been pretty much anyone... well... actually... It would have to be someone they were allied with before and parted ways with... so someone they would trust. So anyone else who fits that description (I haven't read ATF so I don't know if anyone else fits that description) would have worked.

I think Spuffy has a shot. Especially with the nearly impossible chance of Bangel in season 9. I don't think they'd introduce a new love interest into Buffy's life. She's got too much clean up to do to worry about someone new.
 
Yeah, Spike wasn't really vital to the plot. As Zoà« said, any old ally could have covered his role.

Anyway, can I just say hooray for us making it to thread #5? It's a small thing, but it makes me really happy. 😀
 
Tranquillity
Tranquillity
me to! The back steps rock :)
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prophecygrrl
Whoo, thread #5! :D
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StarSlayer
Lol, make me happy too! It's the little things :D
At this point I'm hesitant to comment on the future of their relationship. It all depends on how much longer Joss is gonna do the comics. If he's saying one more year then I'd give Spuffy a 90% chance; any longer than that and who knows what will happen in the story.
 
I don't know, I think Spike somewhat had an important part to the plot. I mean he was the one who called out Buffy after her whole sexcapades with Angel. If Xander, Willow, or Giles did instead of Spike, I doubt she would have listened to them. Spike was able to point out the obvious fact she was ignoring...her actions caused devastating consequences. And this isn't anything new. He's always been able to communicate and get through to Buffy on a different level than the Scoobies. So, in that sense, I think he was important to the plot 🙂
 
Tranquillity
Tranquillity
good point.
Whatever else happens because of Twilight and Issue #39, I most definitely don't want that to be what brings Buffy and Spike together. I want Buffy to be with Spike because she has actually chosen him, not because she can't have Angel, and he's the next best thing. If Buffy can't see, without any doubt, that Spike IS the right one for her, then I would rather see him with Faith.
 
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zobothehobo
Ew. Spaith.
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StarSlayer
Very true, but I'd rather see her alone, or maybe with Xander (yet, he's with Dawn now).
Spike may not have been important to the plot necessarily, but I think he was way important in contrasting Angel's behavior with that of a real hero.

Not that I think Angel isn't a hero. I think most of AtS was about showing that he IS one, just reasonably flawed and in need of awesome people like Cordelia to help guide him. *cough*ThisiswhyCangelrocks*cough*
I'm not super interested in Angel-bashing here, lol. Just in the context of Season Eight, Angel's pretty much painted as the FARTHEST thing from heroic or righteous. Spike's arrival and attitude, immediate recognition of Angel as Twilight, calling out Buffy and bringing everyone back down to earth, and general heroic badassery severely contrast with Angel's behavior. It just makes it even more clear that Angel's being, well, an ass. An ambiguously evil, easily manipulated/possessed ass. Spike's narrative is moving along really nicely. I'm so glad he's had the time to live on his own and become his own kind of champion, and I think it's important that Season Eight can show him in this role.

ETA: ^Just wanted to note that I don't think that anyone other than Spike could have served as the anti-Angel in such a way.

As for future Spuffy prospects...Like WA said, I don't want her to be with Spike just because Angel disappointed her. But the most important thing for me right now in the comics is for her to grow up. Spike's become much more mature (though still always true to his Spike ways, lol) and in control of his destiny. I'll wait until Buffy does the same throughout Season 9 until I legitimately start rooting for her and Spike to get together. Just at the moment, she's hurt, grieving, insecure, and still relatively immature when it comes to her love life. I don't think she's in a position to start a real relationship, and that's what I want for them: a real, lasting, equal relationship.
 
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zobothehobo
I like that.
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StarSlayer
Well said :)
Litheran
Litheran
I wanna go to Paris with this post and propose under the Eiffel tower. Soon we'll have little letter shaped munchkins running around; getting acting gigs on Sesame Street.
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Spikefan31
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nmcil12
nmcil12
excellent description of Buffy's current emotional state and very good points about Spike as well.
I agree that Spike was central to the plot for two reasons 1.) he was the only person that tells Buffy like it is and she respects and trusts him enough to take it seriously, and 2.) because he is a trusted ally to the Scoobies.

I don't think his appearance was fanservice. I believe his role is yet to come, and it will be a vital one.

As for Spuffy, hell yes they have a fighting chance. Bangel is dust. It has to be. Buffy will never (should never) forgive Angel for killing Giles and her slayers (not to mention trying to kill Spike)- no matter if he was under the influence of Twilight or not. Who the hell cares? How many more people will have to die before Buffy realizes Angel and her can never be? Too much blood has been spilled due to thier love. It has to stop. Bangel is a grotesque satire. It's absurd. Buffy can't see Angel for what he really is. She has her love goggles on. He's a trusting fool who's destiny's bitch and always will be. Yet, he's her "one." While Spike, who's perfect for her, is right there in front of her and she can't see him as the "one." It baffles me.

Spike will be there for her when she grieves for Giles. He'll be her shoulder to lean on, and unlike Angel, he won't demand anything from her. Will this bring them closer together? I hope so. But whiteavenger has a point - I don't want Spike to be Buffy's Plan B. He deserves more than that. But in the end, he'll do what she wants because he loves her. I can't see him turning her away.
 
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Spikefan31
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prophecygrrl
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StarSlayer
Nicely put :)
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soulunsung
two snaps up like for sure. ;)
nmcil12
nmcil12
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I agree that Spike was central to the plot for two reasons 1.) he was the only person that tells Buffy like it is and she respects and trusts him enough to take it seriously, and 2.) because he is a trusted ally to the Scoobies.

I don't think his appearance was fanservice. I believe his role is yet to come, and it will be a vital one.

As for Spuffy, hell yes they have a fighting chance. Bangel is dust. It has to be. Buffy will never (should never) forgive Angel for killing Giles and her slayers (not to mention trying to kill Spike)- no matter if he was under the influence of Twilight or not. Who the hell cares? How many more people will have to die before Buffy realizes Angel and her can never be? Too much blood has been spilled due to thier love. It has to stop. Bangel is a grotesque satire. It's absurd. Buffy can't see Angel for what he really is. She has her love goggles on. He's a trusting fool who's destiny's bitch and always will be. Yet, he's her "one."

Bangel in Season Eight was so OTT it was ridiculous. I'm very sure that the OTTness of the True Love and spacefrakking is intentional though. I've found that most rival shippers, some Bangel shippers, and non-shippers alike find Season Eight Bangel to be appalling. In the context of the story, we're not supposed to be rooting for them. At all.

There are some Bangels who thought otherwise, however, and who really cheered when #34 came out...to whom have my deepest sympathies. I'm not a Bangel fan obviously and I thought it was clear from Season Three that Bangel would never work out, but Joss's depiction of Bangel as a destructive, unheroic, and self-absorbed love was almost...cruel? Accurate, but way harsh. I'm not sure if that's the right word, I just know I would be crushed if he had destroyed the possibility of Spuffy half as thoroughly as he just did Bangel. Ouch.
 
Bangel in Season Eight was so OTT it was ridiculous. I'm very sure that the OTTness of the True Love and spacefrakking is intentional though. I've found that most rival shippers, some Bangel shippers, and non-shippers alike find Season Eight Bangel to be appalling. In the context of the story, we're not supposed to be rooting for them. At all.

There are some Bangels who thought otherwise, however, and who really cheered when #34 came out...to whom have my deepest sympathies. I'm not a Bangel fan obviously and I thought it was clear from Season Three that Bangel would never work out, but Joss's depiction of Bangel as a destructive, unheroic, and self-absorbed love was almost...cruel? Accurate, but way harsh. I'm not sure if that's the right word, I just know I would be crushed if he had destroyed the possibility of Spuffy half as thoroughly as he just did Bangel. Ouch.

You're right. Joss has set up Bangel as a tragedy. I feel sorry for them as well. Thank God our ship has not been destroyed as theirs has. Think if Spike had been Twilight? *shudders* Of course, we all know Spike is far too smart to fall for something like that. Buffy and Angel's love for each other has made them into fools. It's gotten their friends killed and it almost caused the end of the world. That's not romantic. That's tragic.

I think the Bangels are going to need the loving arms of Adopt A Bangel. 😉

P.S. I can't believe i'm at 4000 posts!!
 
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Spikefan31
Congrats for 4000 posts! :D
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prophecygrrl
I love how Scott Allie and a few other Season Eight people have all been saying that Spike would never have accepted the Twilight prophecy :D
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zobothehobo
I agree and congrats on your huge milestone
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StarSlayer
And congrats on 4000 posts!!! :D
white avenger
white avenger
The arms of Adopt-A-Bangel will always be open to our less fortunate brothers and sisters. We will be their comfort in their hour of need. Carpe Spuffy!
Sorry for switching around topics here, but I was reading a Spuffy fic and it really got me thinking...it included this idea:

(Buffy's speaking about Angel here)

I remember being so in love with him once, long ago. Oh, maybe in love with him for a long time after that. I don't know anymore. That girl who loved him died at the tower. The one who came back... well, she learned, finally. Finally. To give love. To do love. Not just to feel love. To be happy in love, and not just mourn for its loss.

I hadn't thought of Buffy's resurrection before. That in learning to live again she also learned to love (romantic love, I mean. I'm a firm believer that she never stopped loving her family 🙂). I like what this implies about the Spuffy relationship, especially how it goes in Season 7. Take that, Bangel! 😛

The fic, if you want to read it. I think Xaphania linked to it once? It's the one about Spike giving Buffy a garden: http://www.nocturnal-light.net/fanfiction/story/13/1/Unspoken
 
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StarSlayer
Love that!!! :D And that fanfic is on my list!
Sorry for switching around topics here, but I was reading a Spuffy fic and it really got me thinking...it included this idea:

(Buffy's speaking about Angel here)



I hadn't thought of Buffy's resurrection before. That in learning to live again she also learned to love (romantic love, I mean. I'm a firm believer that she never stopped loving her family 🙂). I like what this implies about the Spuffy relationship, especially how it goes in Season 7. Take that, Bangel! 😛

The fic, if you want to read it. I think Xaphania linked to it once? It's the one about Spike giving Buffy a garden: http://www.nocturnal-light.net/fanfiction/story/13/1/Unspoken
I never thought of that either. That's interesting. I like that too. And it makes perfect sense... there's so much evidence of that IMO.
 
New Questions:

1. Do you think Spike realized it was love when he woke up from that dream in "Out of My Mind", or did he realize it later down the road? And if the latter, approximately when do you think he realized it?

2. Which of the triangles involving Spike/Buffy -- brief or long-lasting -- interested you the most? The least? (e.g. Riley/Buffy/Spike, Spike/Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Spike/Faith etc.)

3. Would Dawn approve of Spike/Buffy, or would she hold a grudge about the bathroom scene?

4. Are there any Spike/Buffy-related lines/scenes in shooting scripts that you wish had made it onscreen? (find the shooting scripts at Buffyworld)

5. Have you or are you planning on writing any Buffy/Spike meta? Self-pimp away
 
Just going to answer the one question for now.

Do you think Spike realized it was love when he woke up from that dream in "Out of My Mind", or did he realize it later down the road? And if the latter, approximately when do you think he realized it?

I don't think he did. I think after the dream, he was in lust with Buffy, but he didn't fully realise the depth of his feelings until the end of Fool for Love. You can see it in his face - when he raises the gun but sees her crying... his face just changes. I think that's the moment he realises that it's more than just physical attraction.
 
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StarSlayer
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sorry to respond out of order

3. Would Dawn approve of Spike/Buffy, or would she hold a grudge about the bathroom scene?

I dont see how she could. I havent been able to buy all of season eight yet but their relationship has grown a lot since then - buffy told him she loved him, spike saved the world and died for her. Plus, although the change was less dramatic than with angel, spike got a soul since then, in fact it was that that made him realise he wanted even needed to get a soul. as long as dawn knows all this surely she can see that spike
deserves buffy's love

anyway as one of my least favourite characters who cares what dawn thinks 😛
 
1. Do you think Spike realized it was love when he woke up from that dream in "Out of My Mind", or did he realize it later down the road? And if the latter, approximately when do you think he realized it?


I think he felt it but rejected it (the "oh no, oh no" immediately upon waking up, lol), so maybe he didn't realize the depth of it. I agree with Xaphania about the end of FFL as when he definitely realized it. 🙂

2. Which of the triangles involving Spike/Buffy -- brief or long-lasting -- interested you the most? The least? (e.g. Riley/Buffy/Spike, Spike/Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Spike/Faith etc.)

Riley/Buffy/Spike, only because it was really, really obvious that Riley wasn't going to last long on the show without his Initiative special-ness. I think I'm one of the few Spuffies who doesn't mind Riley all that much, lol, so I can't say that I was bothered too much by the love triangle either.

3. Would Dawn approve of Spike/Buffy, or would she hold a grudge about the bathroom scene?


I think Dawn will always hold a grudge against Spike, as much as I wish it wasn't true. But I don't think she can ever isolate the "big brother soulless Spike" who used to take care of her from the soulless Spike who ended up almost raping Buffy. Though I do enjoy reading about them making up and stuff in fics. Dawn and Spike's friendship was always one of my favorites. of all time. 😛

4. Are there any Spike/Buffy-related lines/scenes in shooting scripts that you wish had made it onscreen? (find the shooting scripts at Buffyworld)


I haven't read any of the shooting scripts, save for the Doug Petrie "beneath you" scene, which I didn't really care for. Interesting, but I like Joss's better. It's Spuffier. 😛

5. Have you or are you planning on writing any Buffy/Spike meta? Self-pimp away

Nope, but I love reading it. 😀 😀
 
1. Do you think Spike realized it was love when he woke up from that dream in "Out of My Mind", or did he realize it later down the road? And if the latter, approximately when do you think he realized it?

I don't think Spike realized it was truly love immediately when he woke up from his dream. As it was already said, I think he realized his the extent of his feelings in FFL when he stopped himself from killing Buffy and instead comforted her. I also think Spike realized how real his feelings were for Buffy after she kissed him in "Intervention."

2. Which of the triangles involving Spike/Buffy -- brief or long-lasting -- interested you the most? The least? (e.g. Riley/Buffy/Spike, Spike/Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Spike/Faith etc.)

I was actually the most interested in the Buffy/Spike/Drusilla triangle, if you really would call it that. We saw how loyal Spike was to Dru in s2 and how much it hurt him when she left him in s3. He even called their love "eternal." So, when she came back in "Crush" and wanted to be with Spike, although Spike had feelings for Buffy, I was very interested in what Spike would do. Would he go back with Dru (since he always wanted to) or did his feelings for Buffy really mean something? Of course Spike went about it in the wrong way in that episode, but what else would you expect from a soulless vampire, lol? Yet, the fact that Spike pretty much chose Buffy over Dru said a lot to me.

3. Would Dawn approve of Spike/Buffy, or would she hold a grudge about the bathroom scene?

Tough one. Dawn wasn't like Buffy (thank God), where she believed getting a soul meant it made someone a good person, or even erased the past. So, I think she would hold a grudge against Spike for a while, but I hope would eventually approve.

4. Are there any Spike/Buffy-related lines/scenes in shooting scripts that you wish had made it onscreen? (find the shooting scripts at Buffyworld)

Oh my gosh...YES! There's a ton. It's not really anything major, but I thought it was nice if they left it in 🙂 Some examples:

The shooting script for the Buffy/Spike scene in "Never Leave Me," when they are in the basement, is pretty interesting. Although I'm very happy with the final product, there's some things that intrigued me in the script. For instance, Buffy includes "Was that you who tried to rape me?" when she's questioning Spike about whether that was him in the cellar and who killed those girls. Also, I kind of like this exchange:

BUFFY
There's a man in there underneath
that monster. A man who -- even when
he had no soul --

SPIKE
-- It's window dressing --

BUFFY
-- struggled to find redemption.
You're alive because I know he's in
there --

The whole script is available here: http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/131_scri.html

In Chosen:
SPIKE
I don't know what I would have done
if you'd gone up those stairs.

BUFFY
Let's not find out.
I love that little line by Buffy 😀

Another one in Chosen, which I'm actually bummed they took out. After Buffy parts ways with Xander and Willow as she walking down the hall in Sunnydale high, the script then says:
Buffy comes down the stairs and on top of the music we hear voices, remembered voices, phrases from her past -- her first meetings with her friends, key moments together, it all builds and jumbles in her head as she walks along the hall until she reaches

SPIKE
Time to go to work, love.
I just think that's an awesome way of showing how Buffy's past now connects with her present/future, which includes Spike 😉 Plus, I love that line by Spike 😀

I know there's more, but that's all I can think of now 🙂

5. Have you or are you planning on writing any Buffy/Spike meta? Self-pimp away

I haven't written any, but I am thinking of writing one 🙂

---------- Post added at 06:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 PM ----------

xaphania agrees: If the meta you mention here is the one we talked about once - write it, write it!

Yes, it is that one 😉
 
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xaphania
If the meta you mention here is the one we talked about once - write it, write it!
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prophecygrrl
Thanks for the shooting script quotes! I never knew about those. Dang, I wish they kept the Spike one and the rape one in. Interesting stuff :D
Tranquillity
Tranquillity
I love that bit from Never Leave Me too
1. Do you think Spike realized it was love when he woke up from that dream in "Out of My Mind", or did he realize it later down the road? And if the latter, approximately when do you think he realized it?

Agree with what was said by Xaphania; I think he was in denial until Fool for Love.

2. Which of the triangles involving Spike/Buffy -- brief or long-lasting -- interested you the most? The least? (e.g. Riley/Buffy/Spike, Spike/Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Spike/Faith etc.)

Buffy/Spike/Richard

/End Discussion


3. Would Dawn approve of Spike/Buffy, or would she hold a grudge about the bathroom scene?


I think after HIM; she started to understand what it meant that Spike reclaimed his soul? I think after the events of Get it Done; she would accept Buffy and Spike being together. I also like to think she forgave Spike by the end.


4. Are there any Spike/Buffy-related lines/scenes in shooting scripts that you wish had made it onscreen? (find the shooting scripts at Buffyworld)


I like the ones that StarSlayer points out; such fluffy Spuffy makes my head spin.


5. Have you or are you planning on writing any Buffy/Spike meta? Self-pimp away


I don't know; okay just doing fiction; but I have written down some musings on the couple.
 
I think Spike felt more than lust when he saved Buffy in "Family". In terms of pinpointing when he fell in love with her it is really difficult. You could argue that he did realize he loved her after the dream. I take the "Oh no" as him realising he likes Buffy, i'm not sure if he thinks its love then.

Then again he stalks outside her house before Fool For love and i don't think that's just him lusting after her.

In conclusion i'm not sure but i just watched "Fool For Love" and the scene at the end with no dialogue just the looks on both Spike and Buffy's faces is such a feel good and lovely moment in general. That's when i think the viewer realises that Buffy and Spike could have something really special and the fact that no words are needed to show that fact speaks volumes.
 
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